Author Topic: A different angle?  (Read 10733 times)

LittleWheelsandBig

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A different angle?
« on: 03 September, 2011, 09:41:14 am »
A few times now (and several times at PBP) I've seen older riders leaning 10 degrees or so off vertical after a couple of days riding, with their bikes obviously leaning to the other side by the same amount. Their progress down the road tended to be a series of gentle curves to the side their bikes are leant towards, interspersed with corrective jerks when they get too close to the edge or centreline of the road. It was a nerve-racking experience to watch them and somewhat difficult to safely pass them.

Speaking to one of those afflicted near the end of PBP, he was fully aware he was leaning but said it felt like he was sitting straight above the bike. Any ideas what might be the cause and what might fix the problem?
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: A different angle?
« Reply #1 on: 03 September, 2011, 01:04:54 pm »
I've seen it on long walks.  Not uncommon on LDWA 100 milers I believe.  Usually those seriously afflicted are obliged to retire, because although it looks comical, it isn't.  I forget what the physiological cause is, though.

Biggsy

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Re: A different angle?
« Reply #2 on: 03 September, 2011, 02:32:44 pm »
I can understand the fear of leaning the bike too much into a bend, but leaning it the wrong way?  I didn't even realise that was physically possible.
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Biggsy

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Re: A different angle?
« Reply #3 on: 03 September, 2011, 02:40:11 pm »
...Or have I misunderstood, and the riders are leaning their bodies the wrong way, with their bikes leaning into the bend?
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LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: A different angle?
« Reply #4 on: 03 September, 2011, 02:42:58 pm »
No, riding along a straight road.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Biggsy

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Re: A different angle?
« Reply #5 on: 03 September, 2011, 02:44:49 pm »
Oh dear, that's worrying.
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Re: A different angle?
« Reply #6 on: 03 September, 2011, 02:49:47 pm »
I saw a few - in some cases, they were carrying backpacks, which seemed to exacerbate the problem (I've got a photo of one chap).

Other people just looked completely knackered. An Aussie and I were riding behind an old geezer after Villaines on the way back, and we checked he was OK at the top of a climb, but he simply gave that French shrug and carried on.  Watching him descend was terrifying (and we did watch him - we were keeping him where we could see him), since he was mainly made of sticks and spit, and he'd probably have snapped in two if he'd come off.  He reached the next village, had to be dragged off the bike and dumped on a table, where he went out like a light.   

Core strength issue?

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: A different angle?
« Reply #7 on: 03 September, 2011, 02:56:02 pm »
One fellow I know only started having the problem after a head injury a few years ago. There isn't anything obviously asymmetric about him until a couple of days' fatigue has accumulated.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

DanialW

Re: A different angle?
« Reply #8 on: 04 September, 2011, 12:38:48 pm »
Lower back problems?

PBP is very yompable, with lots of shallow hills. I was aware how much strain that put on my lower back muscles. I have a touch of a curved spine (which is v. common) which stresses my left hand side. If I don't stretch, I get all sorts of knock-on problems, right down to my knees and Achilles.

A chap I rode with for 700km seemed to have similar pain in his lower back. By the end he was riding at a 10 degree angle. He was surprised too when I pointed this out to him.

Biggsy

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Re: A different angle?
« Reply #9 on: 04 September, 2011, 12:58:40 pm »
A chap I rode with for 700km seemed to have similar pain in his lower back. By the end he was riding at a 10 degree angle. He was surprised too when I pointed this out to him.

But was he continually veering off to one side of the road, or was he correcting his steering to prevent that?

I'm thinking it's more likely to be a brain or eyesight problem for those who don't manage to correct within an instant anything that makes the bike steer to one side, as is required with the normal wobbles of normal cycling, as well as anything else.

I'm also wondering about balance problems from inner ear causes - except that a cyclist mainly uses his/her eyes to steer a bike, rather than the sense of balance that is required for walking.
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border-rider

Re: A different angle?
« Reply #10 on: 04 September, 2011, 01:02:22 pm »
I saw a couple of chaps riding deliberately on one bum cheek due to damage, and a couple more who seemed to be leaning over due to balance issues.

I also met a couple of people who withdrew because they lost their sense of balance on the bike, including one American 5-times ancien

Re: A different angle?
« Reply #11 on: 04 September, 2011, 02:36:55 pm »
Towards the end I noticed that I was seeing the front wheel from one side. I felt upright but obviously wasn't. Solution was to move so that I could see the wheel from above, which at first felt that I was leaning the other way. It was okay once I got used to it. It wasn't severe enough to affect bike handling, might not have been particularly noticeable to others. The day after the finish everything was fine and symmetrical again.

I have experienced similar on a 24 and other hard long rides. More attention to upper body strength might solve the problem.

Re: A different angle?
« Reply #12 on: 04 September, 2011, 03:44:18 pm »
Are you 'an older rider' by any chance Ian H? I thought you were in your 30s (but had had a particularly harrowing life).

hellymedic

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Re: A different angle?
« Reply #13 on: 04 September, 2011, 04:01:36 pm »
Are you 'an older rider' by any chance Ian H? I thought you were in your 30s (but had had a particularly harrowing life).

That Old Salvatorian is a little older than Salvatore. That was Harrowing...

Re: A different angle?
« Reply #14 on: 04 September, 2011, 04:45:19 pm »
Are you 'an older rider' by any chance Ian H? I thought you were in your 30s (but had had a particularly harrowing life).

That Old Salvatorian is a little older than Salvatore. That was Harrowing...

My past is catching up with me.

Hummers

  • It is all about the taste.
Re: A different angle?
« Reply #15 on: 04 September, 2011, 10:48:24 pm »
Are you 'an older rider' by any chance Ian H? I thought you were in your 30s (but had had a particularly harrowing life).

[size=40]ROLMFAO PMSL[/s]

Etc.

H

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: A different angle?
« Reply #16 on: 09 July, 2021, 12:26:44 am »
Has anybody got some photos of afflicted riders leaning their way down the road? There is a faint possibility of an explanation but my point of enquiry doesn’t really believe my description of the problem.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: A different angle?
« Reply #17 on: 09 July, 2021, 10:49:08 am »
I ride slightly off kilter and always have. L5-L6 disc issues, one leg slightly longer than the other, dropped shoulder, bad desk posture; all contributing factors I expect that will be exaggerated as I age. Really should get on the yoga case...

We don't have perfectly symmetrical bodies and we apply a bias subconsciously in our movements. Stand in a playing field on the side line of a pitch, close your eyes and try to walk along it; I bet you pretty much always veer to one side.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: A different angle?
« Reply #18 on: 09 July, 2021, 11:22:01 am »
I am pretty asymmetric off the bike but I sit straight on the bike, even when tired, checked by looking down at the stem and front wheel with each eye alternately. YMMV
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Kim

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Re: A different angle?
« Reply #19 on: 09 July, 2021, 11:31:28 am »
Gosh, this is an old thread.  But I'd expect the underlying issue to be neuromuscular.  The vestibular system doesn't seem very important when riding a bicycle (trikes are another matter), and obviously vision is coming in to provide the course corrections.  Perhaps asymmetrical fatigue - I know I do most of my handlebar gripping with my left (non-dominant) hand - mucking up the proprioception?


I am pretty asymmetric off the bike but I sit straight on the bike, even when tired, checked by looking down at the stem and front wheel with each eye alternately. YMMV

I seem to tend towards leaning the bike to the right slightly, at least on an upright.  Hard to tell on a recumbent.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: A different angle?
« Reply #20 on: 09 July, 2021, 12:14:41 pm »
I am pretty asymmetric off the bike but I sit straight on the bike, even when tired, checked by looking down at the stem and front wheel with each eye alternately. YMMV
But your front wheel will always appear to off centre when seen with non-dominant eye.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: A different angle?
« Reply #21 on: 09 July, 2021, 12:15:29 pm »
I am pretty asymmetric off the bike but I sit straight on the bike, even when tired, checked by looking down at the stem and front wheel with each eye alternately. YMMV
But your front wheel will always appear to off centre when seen with non-dominant eye.

Close each eye alternately and the offset is the same in opposite directions, so I am sitting central.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: A different angle?
« Reply #22 on: 09 July, 2021, 12:25:01 pm »
If I sit at my desk and look at a vertical object, so I know nothing's moving, the close my left eye, the object stays in the same position against the background. If I close my right eye, it moves. My right eye's input to my visual processing is somehow dominant over that of my left eye, but I don't know if that means it's more correct. I understand this is usual (obviously which eye it is varies).
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Kim

  • Timelord
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Re: A different angle?
« Reply #23 on: 09 July, 2021, 12:33:06 pm »
Yeahbut that doesn't change the optics of the situation.  Your left eye sees the persepctive from the left eye and your right eye sees the perspective from your right eye.  Dominance only comes into play when they're both open, making you believe that the left eye version is somehow more correct, when they're both equally wrong.

Re: A different angle?
« Reply #24 on: 09 July, 2021, 02:45:52 pm »
This has happened to me a couple of times since I contributed to this thread. Both times a long time ago and towards the the end of long rides. The first time (BCM, I think) the rider behind me (Matth, I think) asked if I was aware I was doing it. I wasn't. The second time I became aware of it myself. I don't think, in either instance, it affected my direction of travel. And both times I was able to correct immediately but gradually slipped into doing it again if I didn't concentrate - hard when you're tired.