The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank

[Tim Hall]

For various new job related reasons, I'm,  temporarily,  driving a Nissan Navara pickup. It's huge, too big for some parking spaces, drinks diesel like me downing a pint on a Friday night. I'll be pleased when my Proper Car gets here.

I do keep a Bendy Bike in the pick up bit, so I  can cycle to the pie shop though.

[madcow]

There are numerous advantages to double cabs like the Navara.
You get 4WD for  half or two thirds the price of an equivalent estate type vehicle.
 If you are VAT registered (I'm not ) then you can claim 20% VAT back and despite being a bit heavier on fuel than the average car , if you drive sensibly then they are not wallet emptiers either.
VED is half that of an equivalent car 4WD
I can average 40 mpg on long runs and yes , sometimes I do tow a BFO trailer , go off road legitimately and carry a lot of tools in the back.
Because I occasionally have to carry hazardous goods, the separate load compartment is a must.

You can also get a lot of camping gear and bikes on board as well after a bit of practice.

Parking is sometimes a pain but is a lot easier if you get into the habit of reversing into parking spaces.
 

 

[Exit Stage Left]

Vehicles such as the Mercedes Vito fulfil the same function as double cabs. They're just as big, and can be had as a 4x4. They don't carry the same connotations as SUVs, but are the same at heart.

All the macho considerations are ramped up to the next level in the world where people actually use 4x4s in the way they are intended. Ford Rangers and Toyota Hi Luxes look a bit wimpish next to a Unimog. Acquiring a Unimog is a rite of passage for many contractors, and is often the first step to bankruptcy. The Dacia Duster is generally seen as the most sensible buy.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Back in ooh maybe 1990, John Peel told of buying a Unimog and then having problems insuring it because it was classed as a commercial vehicle and he wasn't using it for any of its approved commercial purposes. The National Farmers Union gave him a quote but then wanted to know what he farmed. Baked beanz, obvz, pace ian.

[FifeingEejit]

Unpopular opinion: These things are only marginally bigger than normal cars, and just about all of the criticisms of them applies equally to any car.

Indeed, all cars are getting bigger, heavier, partly due to crash regulations, partly due to, errr, other reasons.
Volkswagen Golf MK1, 1974: 790 to 970 kg
Volkswagen Golf Mk7,  2015: 1400 to 1500 kg

So a C Segment car in the 1970s now weighs similar to what a D segement car did in the 1970s.

[iscunonove]

Some time ago I did do some research on car weights. I think these were mostly published 'curb' weights of the basic models.

Top ten best selling cars in 1979 were:

Ford Cortina:         1110kg
Ford Escort:          767kg
Mini:                     675kg
Morris Marina:        885kg
Austin Allegro:        869kg
Ford Fiesta:            771kg
Ford Granada:         1190kg
Ford Capri:             1010kg
Vauxhall Cavalier:   895kg
Vauxhall Chevette: 845kg

In 2013:

Ford Fiesta:          1150kg
Ford Focus:          1270kg
Vauxhall Corsa:    1086kg
Vauxhall: Astra:   1200kg (my est.)
VW Golf:              1346kg
Nissan Qashqai:   1297kg
BMW 3 series:      1495kg
VW Polo:             1212kg
BMW 1 Series:    1360kg
Peugeot 208:      1168kg

So between 1979 and 2013 an overall increase in weight of 39.6%. Presumably they've only got even heavier in the last 6 years.

[Mr Larrington]

Presumably they've only got even heavier in the last 6 years.

More

• safety features, and
• electric motors

than ever before, so almost certainly.

[iscunonove]

Presumably they've only got even heavier in the last 6 years.

More

• safety features, and
• electric motors

than ever before, so almost certainly.

I did try to bring it up to date with the 2017 top ten but there are now so many different engine options and trim levels it make picking a 'typical' weight quite difficult. But yes, probably heavier. Also the rise of 4x4s isn't totally captured in the 'top ten'. Certainly in my part of Hampshire it seems every other car I meet on country lanes is a two tonne tank.

[ElyDave]

From this article in the Grauniad -
Collision course: why are cars killing more and more pedestrians?

And more Americans than ever are zipping around in SUVs and pickup trucks, which, thanks to their height, weight and shape are between two and three times more likely to kill people they hit.

Yes, but soon there will be no pedestrians, so all will be good. We'll all be greasing up and levering our wheezing, wobbling, ventripotent bulks into our wheeled behemoths so we can struggle to megastores surrounded by an airport-sized car park to buy tortilla chips in bags big enough to sleep in.

But to be serious, any decline in road deaths and injuries these days seems to come about from scaring off more vulnerable road users. Or killing them. They'll learn one way or the other.

Frankly, unless you've a genuine need to tow an elephant or something, I think the average urban owner of one of these massive vehicles is probably being a bit of a cunt. And if it's a marque of Range Rover, definitely a cunt.

As I have a marque of Land Rover, I must just be a bit of a cunt

I dunno. Are you towing elephants or planning to invade a neighbouring country? Those are your get-out clauses.

We do the shopping by car, though it's a Ka, so about the size of the trolley. I suppose we could get it delivered but it's a pain in the arse since I'm a random shopper and I don't know what I want until I see it.

Only Norfolk, but I'll give it back afterwards, no reason to keep it after all.

But Seriously, I do about 3k miles a year in it, either getting bike to Audaxes or just general run about and tip duties. I can tetris a recumbent into the back at risk of ripping interiors to shreds, or your rotator cuff. So use of towbar bike rack is ideal. Also camping out of it is no bother either.

Yes I could do all that with a large estate, but that's just a SST rather than a SMBT

[Cudzoziemiec]

Yes I could do all that with a large estate, but that's just a SST rather than a SMBT

Suburban Small Tank? Suburban Super Tanker?

[ElyDave]

Suburban Scout Tank

[FifeingEejit]

Some time ago I did do some research on car weights. I think these were mostly published 'curb' weights of the basic models.

Top ten best selling cars in 1979 were:

Ford Cortina:         1110kg
Ford Escort:          767kg
Mini:                     675kg
Morris Marina:        885kg
Austin Allegro:        869kg
Ford Fiesta:            771kg
Ford Granada:         1190kg
Ford Capri:             1010kg
Vauxhall Cavalier:   895kg
Vauxhall Chevette: 845kg

In 2013:

Ford Fiesta:          1150kg
Ford Focus:          1270kg
Vauxhall Corsa:    1086kg
Vauxhall: Astra:   1200kg (my est.)
VW Golf:              1346kg
Nissan Qashqai:   1297kg
BMW 3 series:      1495kg
VW Polo:             1212kg
BMW 1 Series:    1360kg
Peugeot 208:      1168kg

So between 1979 and 2013 an overall increase in weight of 39.6%. Presumably they've only got even heavier in the last 6 years.

The direct comparisons there are:
Ford Escort:          767kg - Ford Focus:          1270kg
Ford Fiesta:            771kg - Ford Fiesta:          1150kg
Vauxhall Chevette: 845kg - Vauxhall: Astra:   1200kg (my est.)

Part of the problem here is that they are cars which had to put it mildly, diabolical safety considerations.
An ideal comparison would be to take the 1970s SAAB or Volvo and compare it to now... Since SAAB no longer exist we're left with comparing Volvos

But ok a quick look at SAABs
IIRC the late model SAAB 99s had a plate weight of 1200kg and the mid-80s 900s were around 1400kg
The weights listed for the final 2014 NEVS 9-3 are 1410 to 1690kg
Not such a big increase in weight where the old side of the comparison had similarly thick doors with Side Impact Bars in them (SAAB introduced them mid-70s IIRC along with dashboards that offered some padding, A-pillars that were padded and pretty strong and weren't creating huge blind spots thanks to the front window having an epic curve in them to allow it).

Wikipaedia is helping with the Volvos giving a timeline of direct replacements
1970/80s 200 Series - 1270kg - 1465kg
1990s 850 Series - 1385kg - 1570kg
Late 90s to 2016 V70 - 1410kg to 1518Kg (FWD, 4WD adds ~300kg)

The V90 is given as the successor but it's clearly not a direct replacement

So while Safety features aren't the only cause of weight increase, they are clearly the significant portion of it, and when manufacturers who previously thought it fit to sell cheap death traps made of tin were forced to stop doing that of course the average weight increased.

[DuncanM]

I also think that the size comparisons mean you can't compare a 1970s Escort to a 2015 Focus. The segments have blown up so much that a current Polo is bigger than a Mk2 Golf (which was significantly bigger than a Mk1).

[Cudzoziemiec]

They might be comparable in terms of internal size?

[Andrew Br]

In terms of weight, some of my past vehicles have included:



MG ZT260         1,770kgs (ouch!)

1000kg for the engine and 770kg for the rest of the car ?

[hellymedic]

I think the internal dimensions of cars have expanded to fit larger car occupants BICBW.

[Kim]

I think the internal dimensions of cars have expanded to fit larger car occupants BICBW.

That would make them better at carrying Stuff, which they clearly aren't.

Which isn't to say that the occupants aren't consuming more space, at least in the under 12s age group.

[IanN]

My (unsubstantiated) observation is that rear seat room has increased, and boot size has shunk.
So if you want load space you end up with an estate
Estate versions of smaller cars are rare. e.g. Skoda Fabia.

[FifeingEejit]

I also think that the size comparisons mean you can't compare a 1970s Escort to a 2015 Focus. The segments have blown up so much that a current Polo is bigger than a Mk2 Golf (which was significantly bigger than a Mk1).

The Escort and the Focus are both Considered C-Segment (Small Family/Compact) Cars; a car needs to be considered on purpose not size.
So with the Escort and Focus still targeted at the same market purpose they are a direct comparison.

I have somewhere a picture of my old Corolla E110 and current E120 next to each other.
Toyota didn't target them at different markets, all they did was made a new design to deal with the new safety standards; this has had a significant impact on the width of cars because before then side impact wasn't considered as important as head on, rear end or roll over.

Edit: What's also very clear is the higher driving position and higher suspension, however I wouldn't say the E120s ride height and sitting height is any different from the SAABs I had though they were D-Segment not C.

Found it... the Venison is erm... well the picture was taken in reference to the fact both of them have had front end rebuilds...

[Cudzoziemiec]

I think the internal dimensions of cars have expanded to fit larger car occupants BICBW.

That would make them better at carrying Stuff, which they clearly aren't.

Which isn't to say that the occupants aren't consuming more space, at least in the under 12s age group.

The under 12s are clearly occupying more space even when they themselves are the same size as kids of the 2nd millennium, due to Special Seats. Which might also explain IanN's observation of more space in the rear seats; now that U12s are forbidden from front seats, manufacturers might be designing more width into back seats in order to hold the same number of kids. It might be interesting to compare with cars made for Asia and Africa, where such considerations don't necessarily apply.

[FifeingEejit]

Africa is usually combined with the  European and Middle Eastern market (EMEA)

Asia Pacific includes Australia and Japan

Americas is the other market.

In reality its 3 different body shells and option sets on the same chassis.



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[DuncanM]

I also think that the size comparisons mean you can't compare a 1970s Escort to a 2015 Focus. The segments have blown up so much that a current Polo is bigger than a Mk2 Golf (which was significantly bigger than a Mk1).

The Escort and the Focus are both Considered C-Segment (Small Family/Compact) Cars; a car needs to be considered on purpose not size.
So with the Escort and Focus still targeted at the same market purpose they are a direct comparison.

Sure. I just think that the definition of a C segment car has changed. The Polo/Fiesta size car has grown so much that they were able to put a new base model in below it (Lupo/Ka), but they never changed the segmentation.

[FifeingEejit]

The original ka was a "city car" or a-segment iirc at the time ford's smallest  car was the b segment fiesta,oddly the Ka is now a competitor for the fiesta.
It was more a case of filling a gap in ford's range.

The Lupo was similar, though the info Round also indicates the unsuitability of the Polo due to size increases for the standard "city car" market.

Although the a segment has cars in it from way back (mini and original fiat 500), the "need" for cars to appear in that market more recently does seem to relate to in increase in external size of b/sub-compacts



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[Cudzoziemiec]

Africa is usually combined with the  European and Middle Eastern market (EMEA)

Asia Pacific includes Australia and Japan

Americas is the other market.

In reality its 3 different body shells and option sets on the same chassis.



Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

So what I'm wondering about is the body shells. Plus, this is true for the global manufacturers but there are plenty of models which never make it out of local markets (Mahindra, Tata, Bajaj, etc).

[FifeingEejit]

Africa is usually combined with the  European and Middle Eastern market (EMEA)

Asia Pacific includes Australia and Japan

Americas is the other market.

In reality its 3 different body shells and option sets on the same chassis.



Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

So what I'm wondering about is the body shells. Plus, this is true for the global manufacturers but there are plenty of models which never make it out of local markets (Mahindra, Tata, Bajaj, etc).

Some buy in a "platform" and do the rest others make their own

Mahindra and Tata have their own plarform.
Better info on the Tata, their A-Segment car the Tiago is 3.7m long and 1.6m wide
The current Ford Ka is 3.8m long and 1.6m wide and B Segment

So the sizing appears to be comparable even for a car only really sold in South Asia

The much smaller Tata Nano is no longer produced or sold...