What are you drinking right now?

[John Stonebridge]

Im sure that champers is generally overpriced and Im on a quest for fizz thats both value and quality. 

We've generally gone off prosecco and tend to drink crémant when we fancy fizz - plenty of different ones around and I'm sure that your favoured wine merchant will have their own preferences (do you have an opinion on Little Rascal?) but in terms of readily available ones we come back to the TtD Crémant de Loire and Prodiguer Crémant De Bourgogne from Sainsbury's, and the Cuvée Royale Crémant de Limoux from Waitrose. Years ago we also tried Roche Lacour Crémant de Limoux at the cave, then were pleased to find we could restock from Laithwaites.

Agrre with the “gone off prosecco” sentiment though i never really liked it to start with, If i were going for low cost fizz previously Id probably have gone for Cava. 

Anytime Im have had a decent Cremant ( moslty D’Alsace)  it has been good so maybe i should centre on that. 

Edit - re Little Rascle in EH12 - great to have a new vin cafe open but id say better for a sit down and a glass than a top quality take away.   Their lack of space means stock has to be limited. 

[citoyen]

I think the Dublin thing was true at one time. In the late 80s I often drank in the Half Moon just down from Archway, which, as well as staying open beyond midnight because it had a music licence, also served Dublin Guinness. I drank vast quantities whilst singing along to Republican songs. Good Times.

Even average beer tastes OK in a decent pub.

Which is fine. One of my gripes with Camra is that they rate pubs exclusively on the quality of the beer. When I was actively involved in my local branch, I would get quite dismayed at some of my colleagues who would come to meetings and drone on for hours with their reports of all the pubs they had visited in the past month, all of which sounded like utterly soul-destroying experiences. Yeah, the cellarman knew how to keep a decent pint, but spending any time in there would suck the life out of any enjoyment you got from drinking it.

[ian]

Enjoying a pre dinner glass of Bellavista - Franciacorta Alma Gran Cuvee Brut purchased from the best deli in Edinburgh, Valvona & Crolla. 

V&C is 2 minutes walk from our pad in Embra, and is a major source of our food and drink!

In happier times, it also has a nice cafe for lunch, where the waitress has already written my order on her pad before asking me!

I used to live just up from V&C (on Union Street) – if we were feeling posh, we'd have breakfast there (about 2pm, because we were students, of course).

[Pingu]

I think we've still got a few bottles of Crémant de Die in the wine cellar shed 

[Jakob W]

I think the Dublin thing was true at one time. In the late 80s I often drank in the Half Moon just down from Archway, which, as well as staying open beyond midnight because it had a music licence, also served Dublin Guinness. I drank vast quantities whilst singing along to Republican songs. Good Times.

Even average beer tastes OK in a decent pub.

Which is fine. One of my gripes with Camra is that they rate pubs exclusively on the quality of the beer. When I was actively involved in my local branch, I would get quite dismayed at some of my colleagues who would come to meetings and drone on for hours with their reports of all the pubs they had visited in the past month, all of which sounded like utterly soul-destroying experiences. Yeah, the cellarman knew how to keep a decent pint, but spending any time in there would suck the life out of any enjoyment you got from drinking it.

Lord knows the CAMRA bore is a stereotype for a reason (I've sat through local branch meetings like that...), but I think the focus on beer quality makes sense; what people want from a pub varies so much that you're never going to be able to give a blanket recommendation, and the GBG capsule descriptions should hopefully give you a sense of what kind of pub it's likely to be. A lot of the gripes about CAMRA are proof that it's to some extent been a victim of its own success; for instance, the endless internal debates about craft are possible not least because real ale's future looks reasonably secure in a way that it wasn't when the campaign was founded (though it will be interesting to see what the Covid aftermath brings).

[Mr Larrington]

We know a song about that, don't we Billy?. I suspect citoyen can guess what it is without even manipulating the link

[ian]

My knowledge of CAMRA is based on the magazines I've found scattered in pubs, but the entire craft argument they seem unable to drop is mostly offputting. But enjoying a nice beer is a product of circumstance. Most assuredly, a bottle of Piton lager, while consumed in a dark corner of Lewisham is a foul thing, but the same beer consumed while kicking your feet off the back of a catamaran off the coast of St Lucia is ambrosial. I'm very much looking forward to going to a pub again.

[citoyen]

I suspect citoyen can guess what it is without even manipulating the link

I suspect I can!

[citoyen]

I think the focus on beer quality makes sense; what people want from a pub varies so much that you're never going to be able to give a blanket recommendation

Of course. And the focus on beer quality goes back to the core reasons Camra was founded in the first place.

I also agree that it's perhaps a sign of how successful they have been as an organisation - in that now there are usually enough pubs within a locality serving quality beer that they could afford to be more selective with additional criteria when choosing which ones go in the GBG (given that there isn't room to include all of them).

The real problem is that it's the local branch bores who get to choose which ones go in the GBG... I was involved in quite a few tedious discussions where certain drones would strongly advocate dingy, uninviting pub X because it scored 0.2 higher on their personal beer rating scale than lively, friendly pub Y.

On the 'craft' beer thing... yes, indeed. It's a tricky one. I agree with the principle of supporting cask beer as something worth treasuring. However, one of my two personal favourite local watering holes only serves keg beer. But it's always excellent keg beer. (It's also run by lesbians, which I know would cause all sorts of problems for some of my local Camra branch members.)

[Hot Flatus]

I think the Dublin thing was true at one time. In the late 80s I often drank in the Half Moon just down from Archway, which, as well as staying open beyond midnight because it had a music licence, also served Dublin Guinness. I drank vast quantities whilst singing along to Republican songs. Good Times.

Even average beer tastes OK in a decent pub.

There was nothing decent about the Half Moon.

The point being that in the 80s Guinness was brewed in London and was shit. But if you didn't mind being in a Provo pub you could get Dublin Guinness, and it was markedly better.

[ian]

My local micropub got a good write-up, but they elided the four most excellent keg lines (which he's upgraded to six, along with a dozen casks now, he's been busy).

Unfortunately, in a freak of circumstance, it's also the semi-regular of my new(ish) uber-boss.

[Hot Flatus]

On the 'craft' beer thing... yes, indeed. It's a tricky one. I agree with the principle of supporting cask beer as something worth treasuring. However, one of my two personal favourite local watering holes only serves keg beer. But it's always excellent keg beer. (It's also run by lesbians, which I know would cause all sorts of problems for some of my local Camra branch members.)

'Craft' beer and real ale are different things, and I am now of the view that craft beer needs to be in a keg or it loses the very qualities it has over real ale, those sharp defined flavours.  Real ale benefits from its second fermentation in a wooden barrel.

We have what should be an amazing beer hall in town, but it is beset by two problems. Nigel, the landlord, looks like a 60 year old metal fan and hates people. He just about tolerates his customers most of the time. This is not conducive to a relaxed visit.

The second issue is that he is a real ale nut but half his bar (of about 15 pumps) is craft beer, and whilst he has an amazing selection with at least half being guest ales they are all cask, and there is always something not quite right about them...even the beers I know well.

[citoyen]

The point being that in the 80s Guinness was brewed in London and was shit.

I've always been a bit sceptical of this idea that people can tell the difference between Guinness from London and Dublin - but that's largely because it has become one of those clichés that people trot out even if they have no idea what they're talking about. And they still say it even though Guinness hasn't been brewed in London for years. Tossers.

However, I think I trust you to be a bit more discerning than those twats, so I'll take your word for it.

Also, I can believe that Guinness from Dublin probably was actually better in the 80s, in the pre-Diageo days. Even in Dublin, Guinness is a shit beer these days.

I did once meet an old bore who claimed Guinness has never been as good since it stopped being a cask beer in the 50s, or whenever it was.

[Hot Flatus]

As I think I mentioned upthread, I remember remarking that when 'Draught Guinness in cans' first came out it was markedly better than Draught Guinness in a British pub. I then found out that the canned beer came from Dublin.

I know what you are saying when you say it sounds like a pretentious affectation, but  I'd draw your attention to how all those great tasting imported beers like Staropramen, Cobra, etc all now taste like shit. Because they are now brewed in London. I'm not imagining this. The only reason I find out they are 'brewed under licence' is when I notice that they taste different.

[citoyen]

Cobra beer has only ever been brewed in London, hasn't it? And it has always been shit.

I don't think it's being brewed in the UK per se that makes these lagers shit, it's the fact that ye olde original brewery has been bought up by one of the massive global operators and the recipe reduced to industrial lagerpop, more a marketing exercise than something you would actually want to drink for enjoyment.

[Mr Larrington]

Cobra beer has only ever been brewed in London, hasn't it? And it has always been shit.

Wikinaccurate says it originated in Fulham and is now synthesised brewed in the UK, Belgium and – gasp – India.

[Hot Flatus]

Cobra beer has only ever been brewed in London, hasn't it? And it has always been shit.

Initially it was imported from India, and personally I thought it was not too bad at all. Not sure when the UK brewing started, but if memory serves by 2000 it was pretty rank.

I don't think it's being brewed in the UK per se that makes these lagers shit, it's the fact that ye olde original brewery has been bought up by one of the massive global operators and the recipe reduced to industrial lagerpop, more a marketing exercise than something you would actually want to drink for enjoyment.

Brewed under licence, so doesn't even mean that ye olde brewerye has even been bought up. But your point stands. It isn't that it is the UK, its just that the beers are not the same as those produced by original brewery.

[Davef]

Pretty much the only beer I have consumed for the last 40 years is Guinness which makes me boring but I would say i have a specialist skill here. The first pint of Guinness I had in Dublin was indeed different and in my opinion not as good. The next place I went it was identical to what I drink in England. After a pint elsewhere, I settled on the pub that served ‘English’ Guinness convincing myself there were in fact two slightly different varieties on sale. The reality I now believe is that landlords deviate more from the brewery’s instructions. There was definitely greater variety in Dublin but not to my taste.

[citoyen]

Brewed under licence, so doesn't even mean that ye olde brewerye has even been bought up.

It's a bit of both, I think - the licensing tends to come as a result of the original brewery being bought by one of the globals and turning it from a beer into a brand. Staropramen is a pretty good example of that. I've had Staropramen in Prague and it was nothing special there either. But that would have been post takeover.

Genuinely surprised to learn Cobra has authentic Indian origins. I could have sworn it was entirely ersatz Indian beer concocted by an English brewery marketing department. Maybe I'm thinking of something else. Do people in India actually drink lager with their dinner?

[citoyen]

Anyway, back to the matter in hand... tonight I'm quaffing a Goose Island IPA, because it looked like the best offering they had in the Co-Op when I was in there earlier.

Generic bland "modern" IPA with a one-dimensional citrus flavour, designed for people who don't actually like beer. Better than Greene King IPA - largely by virtue of the alcohol content being significantly higher.

Getting drunk should be less of a chore than this.

[ian]

A friend of my wife's used to work for InBev,  beers brewed under licence are either made industrially to the 'original recipe' (which likely didn't specify fifty hectolitre tanks) or simply supplied as a concentrated wort which is brewed locally using standard yeasts etc. So nothing much like the original. In some cases they don't even brew, they supply a ready-to-dilute concentrate – export Guinness stout in West Africa, for instance, is supplied as a dried flavour extract and diluted with local brewed sorghum beer.

I used to quite like Goose Island IPA back in the day, and their bar was in a rather scarely derelict couple of blocks of north Chicago where you could imagine being eaten by feral sewer people, but now it's a mostly generic and left behind beer. They used to do some fantastic beers (Night Stalker, an awesome stout) then they got bought out by Anheuser-Busch InBev (the corporate car-crash name tells you everything you need to know) and well, now they produce vast quantities of their dullest beers for the international market.

Though, for the record, Greene King IPA is probably one of the worst things I've ever tasted.

[citoyen]

then they got bought out by Anheuser-Busch InBev

I missed that but it's entirely unsurprising.... they hide the fact very well in the small print, but yep, the evidence is there on the label.

Must remember to take my glasses when I go beer shopping.

Though, for the record, Greene King IPA is probably one of the worst things I've ever tasted.

It's pretty bad, but the worst thing about it is calling it an IPA when it has not a single characteristic you would associate with the style. This Goose Island stuff is the same, just with more booze in it. And that is literally the only thing in its favour.

[Hot Flatus]

.

Genuinely surprised to learn Cobra has authentic Indian origins. I could have sworn it was entirely ersatz Indian beer concocted by an English brewery marketing department. Maybe I'm thinking of something else. Do people in India actually drink lager with their dinner?

There's a grain of truth here. It was a British Asian who wanted a lager that was a bit more suited to drinking with food. It was brewed in Bangalore. I quite liked it.

Do people in India drink lager with their food. Well, that depends. Sometime yes. The Sikhs prefer whisky. I've had Kingfisher served in a teapot into teacups because local sensibilities forbade drinking in public.

[Hot Flatus]

An 'New York selection box from beer52, which largely featured Goose Island resulted in instant subscription cancellation.

How fucking dare they.

[ian]

That's a triple crime since there are many, many brilliant beers from NYC and Goose Island is in Chicago.

Back in the day, the bar was quite a good place if you were in Chicago (obviously impractical if you lived elsewhere – though I think they have a couple of bars in London now, one in Balham, one in Shoreditch Obviously, I've been to neither), but they're the worse face of corporate takeovers who are now basically selling the 'craft beer experience.' That said, I don't mind their Midway session IPA. It's not exactly good, but it's probably the best option in the average US airport bar. The 315, on the other hand, seems to be a homoeopathic wheat beer.