Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => Topic started by: joy of essex on 01 November, 2020, 08:59:52 pm
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I have , at last, started to ride using a clipless system.
However, I after 10 or so rides I can't say that I feel relaxed when riding them, especially in traffic and I ve yet to develop the twist and clip out instinct. The pedals used are SPD 520s.
Is this normal? The release is, I think, set at it's lowest. Might I be better off with another model of pedal or should I just preserve?
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I have , at last, started to ride using a clipless system.
However, I after 10 or so rides I can't say that I feel relaxed when riding them, especially in traffic and I ve yet to develop the twist and clip out instinct. The pedals used are SPD 520s.
Is this normal? The release is, I think, set at it's lowest. Might I be better off with another model of pedal or should I just preserve?
Unless you're sprinting in races, I'm not sure what the argument is in favour of clipping in for normal riding...
J
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I’d persevere. Find a quiet road and ride for 20 yards or so and stop, unclip and set off again. Repeat ad tedium. Soon it will become second nature.
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as suggested practice makes perfect.
Also note that
a) click'r type SPDs use an even lower retaining force and
b) SM-SH56 'Multi-release' cleats have an easier release than the standard SM-SH51 cleats
In theory most forms of frantic tugging will cause SM-SH56 cleats to release, unlike SM-SH51 cleats.
cheers
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I ve yet to develop the twist and clip out instinct. The pedals used are SPD 520s.
I think that's completely normal. Takes a couple of months at least.
One tip is when you see traffic or a junction ahead is to unclip early and deliberately lean the bike very slightly to that side. That avoids having to do it all suddenly when you have to come to a stop. It's ok to pedal using the arch of your shoe when unclipped.
In time it will all become second nature.
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Stick with it.
I had problems and grazed knees to prove it.
These days I couldn't do without them (slight exaggeration)
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Yes, I'd say the 'instinct' thing is normal.
I'd persevere with it; there does come a point where *not* being clipped in feels odd, and shin-whackingly uncomfortable.
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I rode for lots of years (maybe 20) with toeclips and enthusiasticly took to SPDs sometime in the late 80s.
I can only remember two 'oh sh! t' moments - one where an Audax bunch had stopped to read an info control and I forgot to unclip and just fell over to riotous laughter.
For reasons best known to myself, and now completely forgotten, I decided this spring that I wanted to put toeclips onto my 'summer' bike - and they are uncomfortable, inconvenient and just plain annoying!
The moral? I think that it's a combination of frame of mind, and familiarity with the system.
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I have , at last, started to ride using a clipless system.
However, I after 10 or so rides I can't say that I feel relaxed when riding them, especially in traffic and I ve yet to develop the twist and clip out instinct. The pedals used are SPD 520s.
Is this normal? The release is, I think, set at it's lowest. Might I be better off with another model of pedal or should I just preserve?
Why do you want to use them?
I use them if I am racing, riding in a fast group, certainly for sprinting, and if I want to ride at high cadence off-road. But otherwise, there isn't a reason to use them if you are not comfortable with them - other than fashion and that the 'click' is a pleasing sensation.
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10 rides is about the worst time as there is a developing battle between conscious and unconscious actions. It's a typical learning curve scenario. Just keep riding with them and all will become well. But be aware, this is also the time you are most likely to make a Pratt of yourself by stopping without uncoupling. It would be unusual if you didn't have one or two such incidents. The key trick it to unclip then stop not vice versa.
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Unless you're sprinting in races, I'm not sure what the argument is in favour of clipping in for normal riding...
Safety. But that only really applies if you're on three or more wheels or you've got enough clipless pedal experience that you're a liability without them. Even on fixed or an ankle-eating recumbent, the safety advantage of foot retention is cancelled out if you're just going to have a clipless moment.
Other than that, it's mostly about being able to fudge around your biomechanical oddities with cleat adjustment, which is only beneficial if you have some.
The key trick it to unclip then stop not vice versa.
^ This.
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as suggested practice makes perfect.
Also note that
a) click'r type SPDs use an even lower retaining force and
b) SM-SH56 'Multi-release' cleats have an easier release than the standard SM-SH51 cleats
In theory most forms of frantic tugging will cause SM-SH56 cleats to release, unlike SM-SH51 cleats.
cheers
Brucey is 100% on the money here (again)
The A520 are not the best option though as they are single sided (I think) and an added pain for extra seconds of fiddling while trying to clip-in. A better option is the PD-ED500, much the same shape but double sided and 1000% easier. Also the PD-T400 which is from the "ClickR" range, double sided and the platform gives a bit more support/stability, clip-in/out both easier at all spring tension levels.
Well worth continuing, you WILL get it and it's very worthwhile, the SH-56 cleats are almost fool proof, release almost unconsciously when an emergency clip-out is needed and I have never experienced an unwanted clip-out, frankly I feel quite uncomfortable without them these days. Good luck
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Agree that double-sided pedals are twice as easy (if not more). Also back the tension right down while you get used to them so you can unclip with minimum force.
Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
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Good advice above about the two types of cleat.
When the Wattbike studio I was involved in was open we found that if people started using them on those they developed the instinctive clip out action in a safe situation.
Maybe if you have a turbo or similar you could ride that for a bit, clipping in and out every few minutes.
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What Brucey said, and back off the retaining springs to a minimum. I've been on SPDs for well over 20 years, and the only times I've fallen off because of them - after the initial obligatory spill when I first tried them - was when I stopped on a 10% climb and couldn't get the bike moving fast enough to clip in again before I fell over. That's when I switched to double-sided SPDs like you have.
Don't worry about the bike staying attached to your feet if you have a spill, either. I've had a few over the last 20 years and never once have the pedals not released.
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PS Just to clarify, the A520 are single sided (bad) but the M520 are double (good) and IMO the ClickR types like the T400 are best
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I tend to side with those who advocate sticking with them. My solo bikes all have either Look style or SPD clipless pedals and I would not want to go back to using ordinary pedals.
My tandem has normal pedals and it feels very odd not to be properly 'connected' with the bike. I'm a novice tandem rider and not yet good enough at starting off from rest to be confident in using clipless, but I'll fit them in due course as I gain experience/ confidence.
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Safety. But that only really applies if you're on three or more wheels or you've got enough clipless pedal experience that you're a liability without them. Even on fixed or an ankle-eating recumbent, the safety advantage of foot retention is cancelled out if you're just going to have a clipless moment.
Other than that, it's mostly about being able to fudge around your biomechanical oddities with cleat adjustment, which is only beneficial if you have some.
I can't speak about trikes or recumbents but what is the safety argument for being clipped in on a DF / safety bicycle? Even on fixed, foot slipping off has never been a problem. And probably much easier for an ingrained cleat user to adjust to not using cleats than for a non-user to adjust to them, no?
Also you can do biomechanical stuff without cleats: I have 4mm of plastic under the insole of my left shoe!
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FWIW I have been riding occasionally with a friend who did a lot of riding BITD using clips and straps and has ridden for utility purposes since (mostly using flat pedals) but is now more 'getting back into it'. Over the past few months various changes to equipment, riding position etc have been made by him as deemed necessary. The current state of play is that cycling shoes (which would accept SPD cleats) are being used on flat pedals, pending fitment of clips and straps or SPD pedals.
I reckon his feet usually slip on the pedals a couple of times in a typical 25 mile ride. How much of this is due to his older habits (which can't have disappeared entirely) and how much is due to the fact that the shoes are probably slippier on the pedals than (say) training shoes would be, I'm not sure. But it certainly isn't what I'd call 'safe'.
cheers
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Having pulled a foot at high revs on a fixed a long time ago, it was only luck that kept me off the deck. Worn cleats get replaced a bit earlier since then.
HK has a 5mm spacer under her Keo cleat to help adjust for a leg length difference. Her SPD bikes have different crank lengths to achieve a similar effect. Both Keo and SPD shoes also have 5mm built up insoles to accommodate the remaining difference.
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Safety. But that only really applies if you're on three or more wheels or you've got enough clipless pedal experience that you're a liability without them. Even on fixed or an ankle-eating recumbent, the safety advantage of foot retention is cancelled out if you're just going to have a clipless moment.
Other than that, it's mostly about being able to fudge around your biomechanical oddities with cleat adjustment, which is only beneficial if you have some.
I can't speak about trikes or recumbents but what is the safety argument for being clipped in on a DF / safety bicycle? Even on fixed, foot slipping off has never been a problem. And probably much easier for an ingrained cleat user to adjust to not using cleats than for a non-user to adjust to them, no?
Also you can do biomechanical stuff without cleats: I have 4mm of plastic under the insole of my left shoe!
IME, feet slipping off happen when:
Shoes are covered in mud/snow.
Rider is extremely exhausted.
Shoes are hard/smooth and pedals don't have much bite.
Both of those happen often enough that I think clips are worthwhile.
The sort of flat pedals that prevent shoes from slipping do this by having surfaces akin to shark teeth; plenty of times I've had these maul my shins! Even a tentative bump is enough to draw blood from a bare shin!
I find that they make a real difference riding uphill.
Also, for me, a major advantage is that i can have my shoe laced up loosely, giving my foot plenty of room to swell, move, wriggle toes; and I'm still secure on the pedal.
Would never go back to toeclips after using SPDs.
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FWIW I have been riding occasionally with a friend who did a lot of riding BITD using clips and straps and has ridden for utility purposes since (mostly using flat pedals) but is now more 'getting back into it'. Over the past few months various changes to equipment, riding position etc have been made by him as deemed necessary. The current state of play is that cycling shoes (which would accept SPD cleats) are being used on flat pedals, pending fitment of clips and straps or SPD pedals.
I reckon his feet usually slip on the pedals a couple of times in a typical 25 mile ride. How much of this is due to his older habits (which can't have disappeared entirely) and how much is due to the fact that the shoes are probably slippier on the pedals than (say) training shoes would be, I'm not sure. But it certainly isn't what I'd call 'safe'.
cheers
He is using the wrong type of shoes! Needs shoes designed for the purpose, like FiveTens, or other shoes with softer soles - basically skate shoes or trainers. Cycling shoe soles are too stiff for flat pedals.
I've ridden thousands of miles since I stopped using foot retention when I don't need it and foot slipping off has not been a problem. It would be a problem if I tried to do the things that I mentioned, like sprinting or high cadence offroad.
High cadence on a turbo is not a problem - I've done 150+ rpm withouth having a foot come off.
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Having pulled a foot at high revs on a fixed a long time ago, it was only luck that kept me off the deck. Worn cleats get replaced a bit earlier since then.
HK has a 5mm spacer under her Keo cleat to help adjust for a leg length difference. Her SPD bikes have different crank lengths to achieve a similar effect. Both Keo and SPD shoes also have 5mm built up insoles to accommodate the remaining difference.
I actually now feel safer on fixed with flats. For example, I lost a foot on fixed the other week when sprinting downhill for the lights (on the A40 coming into Denham by the turnoff for Ruislip where the BP garage is). I made the green light but the tarmac in the junction was churned up, so a foot came off.
I got both feet clear immediately and coasted through until my speed had fallen so I could get my feet back on the pedals. Took half way to the M25 roundabout!
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Stick at it. With clipless I feel attached to the bike and as a result significantly more in control. Using flats now feels weird.
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Safety. But that only really applies if you're on three or more wheels or you've got enough clipless pedal experience that you're a liability without them. Even on fixed or an ankle-eating recumbent, the safety advantage of foot retention is cancelled out if you're just going to have a clipless moment.
Other than that, it's mostly about being able to fudge around your biomechanical oddities with cleat adjustment, which is only beneficial if you have some.
I can't speak about trikes or recumbents but what is the safety argument for being clipped in on a DF / safety bicycle? Even on fixed, foot slipping off has never been a problem.
Fewer bashed shins and inadvertent loss of bike control. This is mostly an off-road thing, thobut, and plenty of off-road riders prefer flats for speed of putting your foot down. YMMV.
It's much more important on a cycle where you can run over your own ankle if your foot slips off the pedals.
(On a trike there are almost no downsides to foot retention, as you don't need to put a foot down to stop. Completely unskilled users can safely use SPDs on a trike.)
And probably much easier for an ingrained cleat user to adjust to not using cleats than for a non-user to adjust to them, no?
Oh, sure. Not that that's relevant to the OP. TBH the main issue with flats if you're out of practice is forgetting to reset the pedals and faffing around when you start off at traffic lights.
Also you can do biomechanical stuff without cleats: I have 4mm of plastic under the insole of my left shoe!
That won't keep your knee aligned just-so, which was the main benefit (apart from reduced shoe wear) I got from SPDs when I first used them. It doesn't seem to matter as much these days, as I have stronger quads, but I probably wouldn't have got there without them.
My preferred approach to correcting leg-length mismatch is crank length. Mainly because I want to be able to use clipless sandals for touring, which precludes orthotics or shimming the cleat.
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IME, feet slipping off happen when:
Shoes are covered in mud/snow.
Rider is extremely exhausted.
Shoes are hard/smooth and pedals don't have much bite.
Both of those happen often enough that I think clips are worthwhile.
Edge case I know but I'll add when the rider has motor control and/or joint issues. My left calf & shin were a constant scene of scrapes and cuts from the day I learned to ride up to I gave it up having learned to drive. When I returned to riding after the PSO years it happened again but by then SPDs were available and I took a chance. Yes there were clipless moments (a lot of clipless moments1) and they still happen a few times a year but I wouldn't be without them. Even my Brompton has SPD pedals on it. I did try rat traps as a kid but never got on with them.
Stick with it, it is worth it. Once it is instinctive you'll feel oddly disconnected without them (which of course you are).
1I can see what you are thinking, it was a lot more than that. Much, more. More! Keep going. Now you are getting close.
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I'm not sure ten rides is enough to get used to them. I'd say:
Practice just clipping in and out with each foot while stationary with the other foot on the ground.
Make a conscious effort to unclip in advance of junctions, red lights, etc.
Consider using the multi-release cleats, which allow unclipping from a variety of angles.
Give it a couple of months and if you don't get on with it, there's no scandal in going back to whatever you had before.
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I must confess that I am mostly with Frank & Quixotic on this and was largely using toe clips before. Though I have now moved onto flat pedals with pins, which are better still.
When I first started out in the late 70s toe clips where exotic pieces of equipment mostly used by racing cyclists. The latter were a rare and elusive breed who wore cleats. And if you look at the pictures in Rough Stuff Fellowship archive or the CTC Cycling Special video then few of them use toe clips and not many are wearing what we then called cycling shoes.
However, one of the reasons I finally shifted to "clipless" was because it's hard to get decent cycling shoes that aren't designed for SPD use only. This being one of the reasons I tried using SPDS them on my new bike.
It may well have to do with confidence , and as some of you have suggested, I may need a different cleat. I have, I believe, kept the springs at their lowest tension. Also wondering if a pair with a platform, eg the 530s of the M324 might be a better choice.
So let's persevere for a while yet.
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Also wondering if a pair with a platform, eg the 530s of the M324 might be a better choice.
Having a platform like that is handy if a) you want to be able to nip to the shops without bike shoes or b) you regularly find yourself wanting to ride in the unclipped state for ease of stopping (eg. on busy shared-use paths).
They'll also help you get the bike up to speed without successfully clipping in, if you're finding that an issue, but I'd expect that to get easier with practice.
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However, one of the reasons I finally shifted to "clipless" was because it's hard to get decent cycling shoes that aren't designed for SPD use only. This being one of the reasons I tried using SPDS them on my new bike.
Lots of MTB shoes are designed with trainer-type soles. And most SPD shoes can be used on flat pedals by simply not removing the little piece of plastic or rubber that covers the cleat bolts.
They'll also help you get the bike up to speed without successfully clipping in, if you're finding that an issue, but I'd expect that to get easier with practice.
Useful IMO on hill starts.
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Thanks, but good MTB shoes that can be used without cleats are, I find, getting rarer. I do have the Exustars but their toe box is far too small for my wide feet.
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They'll also help you get the bike up to speed without successfully clipping in, if you're finding that an issue, but I'd expect that to get easier with practice.
Useful IMO on hill starts.
As is the advanced SPD skill of being able to pedal one-footed.
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I like clip-ins when I'm spinning fast - less danger of foot slipping. Also, when I'm waiting at traffic lights, I can move the RH pedal to the right height for pushing off again. And, having legs of different lengths, when I'm standing on the pedals my left foot is pointing down at around 30° to the vertical, and the pedal stops it slipping off forwards.
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One thing I can never do even with about 20+ years of spds is to twist my foot outwards. I can only ever unclip by twisting onwards and knocking my heel on the seat tube. My older bikes have paint wear on both sides to testify this. The newer ones get taped here.
I don’t know if it’s an anatomical thing or it’s just what I’m now used to.
Might be worth seeing if you unclip better the wrong way like I do.
Oh and a friend I ride with claims he’s never had a ‘whoops’ moment forgetting to unclip and toppling over even when learning. I don’t believe him.
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While I can see there are flexibility benefits to beartrap type pedals, I don't see any advantage to clips and straps over clipless pedals (excepting track sprinting I guess). If you are used to pulling your feet back to get out of clips and straps, then making the transition to twisting to unclip might take a little while (definitely more than 10 rides), but once you get used to it it is much easier. I had at least 1 "clipless moment" when learning clips and straps (with trainers on a MTB) :)
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I actually now feel safer on fixed with flats.
My fixed gear bike is the one I use for mostly utility riding, and it currently has flat pedals fitted. I find the convenience of being able to hop on without needing special footwear outweighs any other considerations. I certainly don't feel unsafe riding it - although I would say that spinning furiously downhill when your feet are not attached to the pedals is a good way to sharpen your focus on your pedalling technique! ;D
I'm not sure ten rides is enough to get used to them.
Absolutely. Nowhere near long enough to properly get used to them.
When I first went clipless, I got on fine with them from the start, and didn't have my first proper 'clipless moment' until I'd been using them for a few weeks, which was probably down to getting complacent. But I wouldn't say I properly 'got used to them' until after a few months of regular use.
I never got on with toeclips.
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I’d persevere. Find a quiet road and ride for 20 yards or so and stop, unclip and set off again. Repeat ad tedium. Soon it will become second nature.
I took a few rides to get the hang of it; they were amusing MTB easy-XC rides for the guys with me.
Probably the better environment to get the hang of SPD in IMO
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One thing I can never do even with about 20+ years of spds is to twist my foot outwards. I can only ever unclip by twisting onwards and knocking my heel on the seat tube. My older bikes have paint wear on both sides to testify this. The newer ones get taped here.
I don’t know if it’s an anatomical thing or it’s just what I’m now used to.
I used to find the same and for me, the multi-release cleats helped a lot. I think it's (for me) because the SH51 you have to twist your foot in a flat plane, my ankle was automatically twisting up at the same time as the outward motion. Also possible I had my saddle too high.
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While I can see there are flexibility benefits to beartrap type pedals, I don't see any advantage to clips and straps over clipless pedals (excepting track sprinting I guess). If you are used to pulling your feet back to get out of clips and straps, then making the transition to twisting to unclip might take a little while (definitely more than 10 rides), but once you get used to it it is much easier. I had at least 1 "clipless moment" when learning clips and straps (with trainers on a MTB) :)
You can wear whatever you want and still easily position your pedals at the preferred angle while stopped.
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While I can see there are flexibility benefits to beartrap type pedals, I don't see any advantage to clips and straps over clipless pedals (excepting track sprinting I guess). If you are used to pulling your feet back to get out of clips and straps, then making the transition to twisting to unclip might take a little while (definitely more than 10 rides), but once you get used to it it is much easier. I had at least 1 "clipless moment" when learning clips and straps (with trainers on a MTB) :)
You can wear whatever you want and still easily position your pedals at the preferred angle while stopped.
Sure, but I feel like a fool when I'm on a bike with flats, lift my foot and find the pedal doesn't come with.
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He is using the wrong type of shoes! Needs shoes designed for the purpose, like FiveTens, or other shoes with softer soles - basically skate shoes or trainers. Cycling shoe soles are too stiff for flat pedals.
I've ridden thousands of miles since I stopped using foot retention when I don't need it and foot slipping off has not been a problem. It would be a problem if I tried to do the things that I mentioned, like sprinting or high cadence offroad.
High cadence on a turbo is not a problem - I've done 150+ rpm withouth having a foot come off.
And BMXers can turn 150+ rpm while jumping over doubles but I have some leg nerve damage (and dubious coordination) and pedal lumpy at the best of times. Foot retention is the only way I can reliably keep my feet on the pedals in difficult situations. SPDs are a decent compromise for me.
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Anyway, the "Is foot retention worth it?" question is a bit like the "Should I spin or mash?" one: Like pedalling at higher cadence, you can only really determine whether clipless pedals (or straps or whatever) are worthwhile for you once you've persevered enough to become reasonably competent at using them.
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To return to flat pedals. Frank , thanks for the advice on shoes and flat pedals. Should they be at all stiff ? I am wondering if stiff road shoes and flat pedals might have been the cause of the tendonitis in my ankle. What about walking shoes from Decathlon?
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To return to flat pedals. Frank , thanks for the advice on shoes and flat pedals. Should they be at all stiff ? I am wondering if stiff road shoes and flat pedals might have been the cause of the tendonitis in my ankle. What about walking shoes from Decathlon?
I use walking trainers with shimano M324 pedals. I have two pairs of specialized MTB shoes. But only one pair has cleats fitted. I very very rarely use the proper MTB shoes, i just can't find any benefit from them. I don't put enough power down to worry.
J
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I'd counter that slightly, for my experience only, but when I first got our exercise bike I just used my normal trainers and found afterwards my whole foot hurt.
I eventually figured out the sole of the trainers was too soft and my foot was flexing too much. Using by spare cycling shoes, albeit without cleats fitted, and I've not had a problem since.
Then again, I'm sure if I'd stuck with it my foot would have toughened up and gotten used to it.
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a couple of years ago for a cross country ride that potentially involved a lot of carrying I used trainers with homemade stiff insoles that I could remove if extended walking was required. The fibre glass resin cured to a very pink colour so they looked like two rashers of bacon,
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To return to flat pedals. Frank , thanks for the advice on shoes and flat pedals. Should they be at all stiff ? I am wondering if stiff road shoes and flat pedals might have been the cause of the tendonitis in my ankle. What about walking shoes from Decathlon?
It does depend on your pedals a bit but, as long as they are decent-sized, you want flexible shoes as they will grip better. The one thing above all that you do not want is SPD shoes without cleats, as they won't grip as too stiff. Stiff shoes are only a thing if you have a really small contact point - ie cleats.
You can add more support for your foot with insoles. I use Specialized blue and Superfeet. The latter are carbon so very stiff and give great foot support without comprimising grip.
The leading flat pedal cycling shoe brand is Five-Ten (owned by Addidas).
https://www.adidas.co.uk/five_ten (https://www.adidas.co.uk/five_ten)
But loads of other brands make cycling-specific shoes for flat pedals, including Shimano, Specialized, NorthWave, etc.
Here's a guide:
http://hub.chainreactioncycles.com/buying-guides/footwear/going-flat-years-top-flat-shoes-mtb/ (http://hub.chainreactioncycles.com/buying-guides/footwear/going-flat-years-top-flat-shoes-mtb/)
Lots of people use trail running shoes. The classics are Salomon, but there are others. I did a long ride last summer in Innov8 shoes and they were fine. I would be happy to ride all day in any comfortable pair of trainers, and Decathlon walking shoes look fine. Ideally they would have a flat sole (heel not that much higher than sole - called zero heel drop in trail running shoe circles) with no instep, but not a dealbreaker.
Finally, here's a link to a guy who has thought about pedals a lot:
https://www.bikejames.com/strength/how-clipless-pedals-really-work-why-they-are-just-like-a-weight-belt-for-your-feet-and-why-you-shouldnt-rely-on-them-every-time-you-ride/ (https://www.bikejames.com/strength/how-clipless-pedals-really-work-why-they-are-just-like-a-weight-belt-for-your-feet-and-why-you-shouldnt-rely-on-them-every-time-you-ride/)
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There's a lot to be said for a nice chunky set of BMX pedals if you're going to use flats. Pins are good at improving grip, but aren't kind to either shoes or shins.
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There's a lot to be said for a nice chunky set of BMX pedals if you're going to use flats. Pins are good at improving grip, but aren't kind to either shoes or shins.
I was pretty wary of pins when I started using flats again about three years ago, both for my shins and shoes, but those fears have not been borne out by experience:
- I've never had more than a tiny scratch from them. OTOH I have really hurt my shin a few times when I've not clipped in properly and the pedal has swung round hard.
- And I'm still using my first pair of Five Tens after several thousands of miles. The inner has worn some holes and may well wear out before the sole!
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Back in my BMX days, bashed shins were the all too regular result of mistimed jumps and tricks. SPDs might have been very useful but hadn't been invented yet. Never occurred to me to use toeclips for BMX.
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There's a lot to be said for a nice chunky set of BMX pedals if you're going to use flats. Pins are good at improving grip, but aren't kind to either shoes or shins.
I was pretty wary of pins when I started using flats again about three years ago, both for my shins and shoes, but those fears have not been borne out by experience:
- I've never had more than a tiny scratch from them. OTOH I have really hurt my shin a few times when I've not clipped in properly and the pedal has swung round hard.
- And I'm still using my first pair of Five Tens after several thousands of miles. The inner has worn some holes and may well wear out before the sole!
I've found pins to be Not Kind to my default Doc Martens. I suspect there may be p*nct*r* fairy involvement. But they did greatly improve grip, which Docs aren't known for.
Shoes wearing from the inside out is normal and ordinary for me. The notable exception was the walking boots that developed leaks from prolonged riding in PowerGrips, before I took the plunge on SPDs. With clipless, the wear is concentrated on replaceable parts of the shoe (cleat and insole, respectively), which is a point in their favour, as I hate shoe shopping.
It's been a long time since I bashed my shin on any kind of pedal (which probably means I need to do more off-roading). I have given my Achilles a good whack on the tyre during an unplanned unclip on the recumbent a couple of times, but that would happen more frequently if I tried to ride it in flats.
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Most of my shin-bashes have come when baling out and pushing through eg deep dry sand.
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Most of my shin-bashes have come when baling out and pushing through eg deep dry sand.
Yes! Removable pedals (with a spare socket out of shin range to mount them so they don't sink forever into the bog) might be a solution perhaps...
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I only have flats on the MTB- and that's so I can hike-a-bike in comfort. I wear my walking boots.
I don't like long periods of riding it on the road as it's geared so low I spin out and that's no fun unrestrained.
Having said that, I have no skillz.
I've had my feet retained on my pedals since I was about 10. We had clips & straps- I still can get the same feeling of tense excitement if I reach to my foot, in a strap tightening way, now, when I'm clipped in.
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With clipless, the wear is concentrated on replaceable parts of the shoe (cleat and insole, respectively), which is a point in their favour, as I hate shoe shopping.
What does wear though, is the bit of plastic beside an SPD cleat that gives extra support on SPD pedals with larger platforms. That leads to inwards and outwards rocking of the ankle. I had issues from this after a long ride a few years ago and had to retire what were then my favourite SPD shoes. I then got some Sidis, on which that bit is also replaceable.
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I did go through a clipless phase, I only fell off twice (once a comedy pie-related overbalancing incident in Covent Garden that I think qualified as a performance art piece, the other time when I stopped to talk to someone as I passed).
It was fine, but I don't think it offered much and I missed the convenience of get-on-and-go and didn't like wearing those orthopaedic looking cycling shoes (and the selection of normal-looking SPD shoes was minimal).
So I just use flat pedals now and whatever shoes I fancy. I have no issues doing a 100+ km like that. I'm not fast but I'm not especially slow either. I can't say my feet have ever slipped off the pedals and shin strikes tend to happen when I'm pushing the bike. But as a former BMXer, I'm effectively inoculated against pedal shin interactions.
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So I just use flat pedals now and whatever shoes I fancy. I have no issues doing a 100+ km like that. I'm not fast but I'm not especially slow either. I can't say my feet have ever slipped off the pedals and shin strikes tend to happen when I'm pushing the bike. But as a former BMXer, I'm effectively inoculated against pedal shin interactions.
For perspective, I did RatN on flat pedals. ISTR one of the big Spanish ultra races the winner was using flats too.
J
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So I just use flat pedals now and whatever shoes I fancy. I have no issues doing a 100+ km like that. I'm not fast but I'm not especially slow either. I can't say my feet have ever slipped off the pedals and shin strikes tend to happen when I'm pushing the bike. But as a former BMXer, I'm effectively inoculated against pedal shin interactions.
For perspective, I did RatN on flat pedals. ISTR one of the big Spanish ultra races the winner was using flats too.
People seem to assume that clipless pedals are about performance (and therefore something that you need for racing, and pointless if you're not), rather than an ergonomic tool. It's plainly evident that flat pedals work fine for most people most of the time, and given the right shoes and body that they're no barrier to spectacular feats of cycling. But equally, clipless pedals are often useful for people doing things that aren't racing.
I think they tend to get marketed as part of the aspirational sport cyclist image. Along with drop handlebars, diamond frame bikes and h*lm*ts. Of course, if you're using MTB pedals and shoes on the road, you're already subverting that somewhat...
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MTB pedals subvert it in two senses: that they're not roady and that MTB clipless is itself, AFAICT from my limited acquaintance, going out of favour with hardcore, high performance off-road riders. But they're still popular in eg audax, cos apart from anything else you can walk to the cake counter in them.
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MTB clipless is itself, AFAICT from my limited acquaintance, going out of favour with hardcore, high performance off-road riders.
As a newcomer (latecomer) to MTB, this is something I’ve been pondering, so I’m interested to read this.
Are they abandoning clipless altogether or switching to road clipless? (I assume the former but asking to be sure!)
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The former is my understanding – that's why we've got all these chunky multi-pinned and toothed pedals in colourful titanium etc – but I should repeat this is very much second-hand info. I'm really not a mountainbiker.
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MTB clipless is itself, AFAICT from my limited acquaintance, going out of favour with hardcore, high performance off-road riders.
As a newcomer (latecomer) to MTB, this is something I’ve been pondering, so I’m interested to read this.
Are they abandoning clipless altogether or switching to road clipless? (I assume the former but asking to be sure!)
I bet that depends on whether they are a downhiller or a cross-country racer.
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MTB clipless is itself, AFAICT from my limited acquaintance, going out of favour with hardcore, high performance off-road riders.
As a newcomer (latecomer) to MTB, this is something I’ve been pondering, so I’m interested to read this.
Are they abandoning clipless altogether or switching to road clipless? (I assume the former but asking to be sure!)
MTBing with road clipless would be an exciting new spin on Comedy Off-Roading. Not only are the shoes a liability grip-wise, but the cleats are made of brie, and the whole system is spectacularly hopeless in the presence of mud etc.
I had an exciting moment on a recent (for 2019 values of recent ) FNRttC where I discovered that one of my Look pedals[1] wouldn't unclip properly, which turned out to be due to a pebble stuck in the mechanism. It was only because it wan't my preferred stopping foot, and that I'd lowracered my way towards the front of the group and didn't have to stop to queue behind a more nervous sensible person on the COR section that this didn't send me sliding into a ditch.
[1] I'd brought the Baron on account of it being The Flat One, but not gone to the effort to swap to sensible pedals, which was, with hindsight, a mistake.
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So I just use flat pedals now and whatever shoes I fancy. I have no issues doing a 100+ km like that. I'm not fast but I'm not especially slow either. I can't say my feet have ever slipped off the pedals and shin strikes tend to happen when I'm pushing the bike. But as a former BMXer, I'm effectively inoculated against pedal shin interactions.
For perspective, I did RatN on flat pedals. ISTR one of the big Spanish ultra races the winner was using flats too.
People seem to assume that clipless pedals are about performance (and therefore something that you need for racing, and pointless if you're not), rather than an ergonomic tool. It's plainly evident that flat pedals work fine for most people most of the time, and given the right shoes and body that they're no barrier to spectacular feats of cycling. But equally, clipless pedals are often useful for people doing things that aren't racing.
I think they tend to get marketed as part of the aspirational sport cyclist image. Along with drop handlebars, diamond frame bikes and h*lm*ts. Of course, if you're using MTB pedals and shoes on the road, you're already subverting that somewhat...
I think they're often pitched with the lycra as 'proper' cyclewear. I'm not sure if there's public shaming involved if you turn up a club meet in your trainers. It probably feels like the day at school when you have to do PE in your pants because you'd forgotten your kit.
My main reason for not using them was convenience, even the most stylish of SPD shoes wasn't. When I'm leaving work (back in the day), I just wanted to hop on the bike and get going, wearing the same shoes as I've worn all day.
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I think they're often pitched with the lycra as 'proper' cyclewear. I'm not sure if there's public shaming involved if you turn up a club meet in your trainers. It probably feels like the day at school when you have to do PE in your pants because you'd forgotten your kit.
At my school, those who'd forgotten their kit got to borrow some from the lost property box, taking care to ask the resident fungus politely before disturbing it - fungus being subtle and quick to anger.
The pedal equivalent is when someone at a BHPC meet agrees to let you do a couple of laps on their shiny whatever, and then turns out to be using Speedplay Frogs or something weird, necessitating sweaty shoe-swapping. (This practice is currently banned under teh coronalurgi rulez, chiz.)
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I think it completely depends on the particular club and even the individuals within the club. Not all clubs are lycra and road pedals, some are very much tracksuit and trainers and can we stop now for a pint/sandwich/smoke. Of those more trad roady clubs which are into the lycra, some, I'm sure, will sneer at you for using flat pedals or wearing running shorts, but many won't mind.
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….MTBing with road clipless would be an exciting new spin on Comedy Off-Roading. Not only are the shoes a liability grip-wise, but the cleats are made of brie, and the whole system is spectacularly hopeless in the presence of mud etc....
it didn't stop LOOK from pushing a variant of their three bolt cleat as an offroad system back in the 1980s. It never took off (mostly because it was a stupid idea) and the result was that the pedals and cleats were available for several years subsequently at knock-down prices. They were (I think) mostly bought and used by folk who just wanted a cheap clipless pedal and were not fussed about what exactly.
Quel horreur! PP26
(http://velobase.com/VeloBase.com/CompImages/Pedals/89B68987-F690-420F-814D-7011A7C70814.jpeg)
PS75
(http://velobase.com/VeloBase.com/CompImages/Pedals/C2255260-1564-4D90-9866-594E2973769F.jpeg)
In this catalogue you can witness the full awfulness of the 'AP65' model pedal, complete with vomit-inducing 1980's 'lifestyle' branding...
https://pyfrides.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/cat-1987.pdf (https://pyfrides.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/cat-1987.pdf)
And whilst folk think of the small SPD cleat as being an exclusively MTB thing, they are probably forgetting Dura Ace (PD-7410) and Ultegra (PD-6500) 'road' pedals which also used the small SPD cleat.
(https://www.ciclismo123.it/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/SHIMANO-DURA-ACE-PD-7410-pedals-1993.jpg)
(https://www.ciclismo123.it/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/SHIMANO-PD6500-PEDALS-KIT.jpg)
cheers
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MTBing with road clipless would be an exciting new spin on Comedy Off-Roading. Not only are the shoes a liability grip-wise, but the cleats are made of brie, and the whole system is spectacularly hopeless in the presence of mud etc.
Oh yes, my experience of trying to negotiate the Pilgrims Way a couple of weeks ago was a lesson in the uselessness of road cleats in muddy conditions.
Not that I needed that lesson, but I got it anyway. Well and truly rammed home.
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TBH I've known SPDs refuse to engage in extreme mud. Though by then the wheels would hardly turn anyway.
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TBH I've known SPDs refuse to engage in extreme mud. Though by then the wheels would hardly turn anyway.
early SPDs had 'platform' bindings and in the right (wrong) kind of mud they can clog. However starting with PD-M540 and PD-M520 all subsequent new model SPDs have had the 'open' binding design which is appreciably more resistant to clogging; nothing is 'uncloggable' though.... Of the current(ish) SPD pedals only PD-M324 and PD-M545 (I think) retain the old platform binding design.
cheers
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And whilst folk think of the small SPD cleat as being an exclusively MTB thing, they are probably forgetting Dura Ace (PD-7410) and Ultegra (PD-6500) 'road' pedals which also used the small SPD cleat.
Plus some more recent models. eg the PD-A600 or PD-ES600. Shimano say they are designed for road / touring etc, equivalent to Ultegra.
(https://i.imgur.com/nhpr02c.jpgg)
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TBH I've known SPDs refuse to engage in extreme mud. Though by then the wheels would hardly turn anyway.
early SPDs had 'platform' bindings and in the right (wrong) kind of mud they can clog. However starting with PD-M540 and PD-M520 all subsequent new model SPDs have had the 'open' binding design which is appreciably more resistant to clogging; nothing is 'uncloggable' though.... Of the current(ish) SPD pedals only PD-M324 and PD-M545 (I think) retain the old platform binding design.
cheers
Yeah, I've noticed that the M324s I have are much more clog-prone that the A520s (I think that's the right number).
NB: Do not try riding in clogs unless you're in Amsterdam!
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And whilst folk think of the small SPD cleat as being an exclusively MTB thing, they are probably forgetting Dura Ace (PD-7410) and Ultegra (PD-6500) 'road' pedals which also used the small SPD cleat.
I loved those PD-6500. Great pedals.
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I swapped between Look road pedals and cyclocross toeclips when racing MTBs sometime in the ‘80s, depending on whether I was likely to get round the course feet up. SPDs were a revelation when they arrived.
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Didn't the very first clipless design, circa 1984 – I think it might have been Cinelli? – require you to flip a lever before unclipping?
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Didn't the very first clipless design, circa 1984 – I think it might have been Cinelli? – require you to flip a lever before unclipping?
the Cinelli design is older than that, and it does have a lever to release, but it ain't the first clipless pedal system.
http://www.speedplay.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.history (http://www.speedplay.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.history)
several types before 1898....?
cheers
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Plus some more recent models. eg the PD-A600 or PD-ES600. Shimano say they are designed for road / touring etc, equivalent to Ultegra.
(https://i.imgur.com/nhpr02c.jpgg)
The big problem with a lot of clipless pedals, and a fair few flats these days tbf, is they don't have an obvious or easy way to attach reflectors. A lot of jurisdictions have a requirement for pedal reflectors. Sure you'd have to be having a really bad day to be nicked for not having pedal reflectors, but still, in event of an accident, a not completely 100% road legal bike could cause you liability issues down the line.
It's one of the things I like about my M324's, they take normal pedal reflectors, with ease.
J
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reflectors are indeed a problem with many SPDs
PD-ES600 is a case in point
https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/ev/EV-PD-ES600-4363.pdf (https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/ev/EV-PD-ES600-4363.pdf)
shimano offer SM-PD62 reflectors for this pedal (and others);
(https://www.freewheel.co.uk/media/catalog/product/f/t/ftp_f_freewheel_imagesmadisonfwaccessoriesy46d98050.jpg?quality=80&bg-color=255,255,255&fit=bounds&height=&width=&canvas=:)
However in terms of robustness I would say they need a lot to be desired; many pedal reflectors are pretty lousy but these deserve some kind of special prize.
IME conventional reflectors only last reasonably well if they are mounted in recesses in the pedal body. PD-M324 is better than other SPDs but that is faint praise indeed; they are easily knocked off.
An alternative which is not strictly legal, (but far better than nothing) is to use yellow reflexite sheeting in place of pedal reflectors. This can either be stuck to the pedal body or mounted within the jaw structure of SPDs.
cheers
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I prefer not bashing reflectors and pedals into the road when I pedal round corners or stuff up clipping in, so pick the lowest profile pedals I can get away with. Reflectors lose out.
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I stopped using spuds and I am damned glad I did. I found them a big liability when riding (several clip less mo,ents) but the real decider was the exacerbation of the arthritis in my left ankle, caused by unclipping everybtime I came to a stop.
I have been on rides with two people who both needed hospital treatment - one had a broken bone - after cliplesss moments.
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An alternative which is not strictly legal, (but far better than nothing) is to use yellow reflexite sheeting in place of pedal reflectors. This can either be stuck to the pedal body or mounted within the jaw structure of SPDs.
That. French law at least specifies orange catadioptric reflectors mounted on the pedals without saying that they have to be visible from behind, so I have a strip of reflective tape on the side of the pedal. At least I did: I haven't looked lately.
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I just use an SM-PD22 reflector clipped into one side of each PD-M520 SPD pedal. This even gives you a fairly rubbish flat pedal as well.
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I just use reflective tape on the heel of my cycling shoes. If I'm wearing civvy shoes, I'm unlikely to be riding at night out of town.
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Plus some more recent models. eg the PD-A600 or PD-ES600. Shimano say they are designed for road / touring etc, equivalent to Ultegra.
(https://i.imgur.com/nhpr02c.jpgg)
The big problem with a lot of clipless pedals, and a fair few flats these days tbf, is they don't have an obvious or easy way to attach reflectors. A lot of jurisdictions have a requirement for pedal reflectors. Sure you'd have to be having a really bad day to be nicked for not having pedal reflectors, but still, in event of an accident, a not completely 100% road legal bike could cause you liability issues down the line.
It's one of the things I like about my M324's, they take normal pedal reflectors, with ease.
I have those clip-on platform things on my hybrid (which probably does the most dark urban riding), because that meant I could continue to use a set of M520s with a broken mechanism on one side. They're fairly rubbish as platforms (they do work for keeping pedalling with your SPD shoe unclipped on the towpath on approach to wandering dogs), but the reflectors do an admirable job of staying attached.
My mountain bike has double-sided SPDs for being able to clip in quickly reasons, which precludes reflectors. I have QRD pedals for the Brompton, and the flats have reflectors, but I tend to use the SPDs more. On both these bikes I've stuck Scotchlite on the crank arm on the basis of complying with the spirit, if not the letter, of the law.
On the recumbents reflectors are academic (like panniers, you can't legally use a recumbent after dark), though I have covered the underside of the single-sided Look pedals with Scotchlite, because there's no good reason not to. I'm not sure how visible they are that close to the front light, though.
From experience of spotting cyclists on the road, both as a cycist/pedestrian and driver, I reckon the value of pedal reflectors is mostly that they're the one rear-facing reflector still attached to unlit BSOs. As soon as the cyclist is properly lit, they don't really achieve much, other than marking those distant light sources as 'pedal cycle' (which can also be achieved by flashing lights or distinctive patterns of reflectives such as those on clothing or Ortlieb panniers).
So in practical terms, I don't worry about them from a safety perspective. In the unlikely case that someone tries to argue the contributory negligence angle after a collision, I reckon having good lights is a pretty strong counter argument, but ultimately it's the lack of helmet that will carry more weight.
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I confess that I find pedal reflectors fairly distinctive when we're driving about in the dark. Variable constellations of rear bicycle lights might be noticeable, but the turn of pedal reflectors shouts 'cyclist.'
I used to have the combo pedals (spd on one side, flat on the other). They were OK when I occasionally fancied clipping in, but ultimately too much faff flipping them around when I was down to the single pair of spd shoes and I wasn't going to buy any more.
I forgot the time I got stuck and had to ride all the way to Beckenham trying to extricate myself. I didn't live in Beckenham. A screw had come loose. Tbh, I'm surprised I didn't fall off a lot more than I did.
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I put reflective tape on the edges of my (flat) pedals. And on the heels of my shoes.
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i like having flat pedals on my runabout bike, they work ok with various casual shoes. occasionally (like today) i experience shin-pedal interaction, but no big deal :).
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201104/be2b29f767c06e865a367a4999879edc.jpg)
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reflectors are indeed a problem with many SPDs
IME conventional reflectors only last reasonably well if they are mounted in recesses in the pedal body.
I use PT-T780, which have just such slightly recessed reflectors. The reflectors have lasted longer than the clip mechanism (wore sufficiently to allow inadvertent release)
The current version is the PD-T8000 (https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/component/deorext-t8000/PD-T8000.html), with added shin-biting studs on the flat side. The reflectors are also replaceable, should you manage to get hold of any.
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...I use PT-T780, which have just such slightly recessed reflectors. The reflectors have lasted longer than the clip mechanism (wore sufficiently to allow inadvertent release)….
FWIW it is usually possible to grind a small portion of the 'Jaw Stopper' away and thus restore the jaw opening to the 'as new' dimension. You can't do this indefinitely though; the rear jaw gets more and more inclined.
cheers
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SHIMANO PD-T400 , what's not to like? ClickR easy in / easy out, double sided, in-built completely integrated reflectors front & back, nice platform, not too heavy or expensive, I think mine are still going good after 10 years and over 100+ Audax rides, 40,000+kms
https://www.amazon.com/SHIMANO-PD-T400-CLICKR-Clipless-Pedals/dp/B008VQCWUQ
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PD-T400 dates from about 2013.
Like other click'r pedals it lacks the ramp which forces the cleat up and out of the pedal when you twist to release
(https://http2.mlstatic.com/pedales-con-plataforma-shimano-pd-t400-l-click-r-D_NQ_NP_481901-MLC20438052652_102015-F.jpg)
which PD-M520s (and others) have (the ramp is also the 'jaw stopper' in PD-M520)
(https://www.bikingbarn.co.uk/image/catalog/Products/FComponents/pdm520s.jpg)
I've not used click'rs in the long term but I have used other SPD-like pedals with no ramp and they were fine at first, but once the cleat became worn at the back (with a groove where the rear jaw sits) the release was often poor; eventually I realised it was only a matter of time till I had a stupid accident because my foot wasn't coming out of the pedal. The same worn cleats released fine in pedals with ramps.
Does the click'r arrangement ever inhibit release when the cleats are worn? Has anyone used SM-SH51 cleats in those pedals?
FWIW PD-M520 and other SPDs with 'open' type bindings have just one ramp and release properly when the foot is turned outwards. Earlier SPDs with 'platform' type bindings have two ramps and these pedals release well whether the foot is turned inwards or outwards.
cheers
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I have used SH51 with the T400 and not noticed any difference, I have also been guilty of using SH51 and SH56 for years and years, again without noticing any decline in function although I do now try to replace them sooner. Have also used several other types of SPD pedals and they all feel the same to me, love them all but prefer the T400
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FWIW it is usually possible to grind a small portion of the 'Jaw Stopper' away and thus restore the jaw opening to the 'as new' dimension. You can't do this indefinitely though; the rear jaw gets more and more inclined.
I shan't bother.
They are allen key fitting only, and reasonably well seized on to a set of cranks of which the RH crank arm is bent enough that it's unpleasant to use - i.e the pedal spindle is now about 5° off parallel to the BB axle (argument with car).
Besides that, the obvious wear is to the front non-moving jaw, in ab off-centre manner.
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M520s belong in some museum of design.
They are a great triumph of engineering. Functional, durable; and in a world where decent products are deprecated in favour of New! Shiny!, they continue to be manufactured.
How long have they been in production? It must be something like 15 years.
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M520s belong in some museum of design.
They are a great triumph of engineering. Functional, durable; and in a world where decent products are deprecated in favour of New! Shiny!, they continue to be manufactured.
How long have they been in production? It must be something like 15 years.
Long enough for there to be low-cost knock-offs out there. I switched to them in 2006 or 2007, and they'd been about for a good while already.
ETA: According to Wiki the first double-siders go back to 1990: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shimano_Pedaling_Dynamics
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IIRC the date on PD-M737 EV techdoc is early 1991. PD-M520 dates from nearly 20 years ago now.
cheers
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M520 patented 20 years ago apparently:
https://www.pinkbike.com/u/iaintreloar/blog/the-20-year-history-of-the-shimano-pd-m520.html
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Surprised to read about wear in the Click'r design. I thought the whole point of them was that they have easier release than conventional SPDs? I haven't actually used them so can't say.
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IIRC the click'r design has a much softer spring in it, such that the upper half of the tension range corresponds roughly with the lower half of the tension range in a standard SPD. Maybe this (and using SM-SH56 cleats) makes the release 'easy'?
It is also possible that not everyone wears cleats (so that they end up with a groove in the back) like I do...?
cheers
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I ve been meaning to thank you all for your advice on this.
So , I changed the cleats, followed QGs advice on pedals , and I can report that I do now get on with clipless.
Entry and exit is easy and the wider platform of the M324 make me feel more secure and in control
However, all is still not well. As I wear orthotics and have wide feet I usually go up a size in shoes. ie and 43/44 not a 42. Which means I can't get the cleat as far back as I would like. Certainly, not as far back as Steve Hogg would suggest I should
The effect of this is , I think peroneal tendonitis, in my right foot. My ankle still aches after an hour's ride this morning. The answer, may be wider shoes in a smaller size to bring the cleat position further back, but also a return to flats and toe clips.
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Entry and exit is easy and the wider platform of the M324 make me feel more secure and in control
I had those on a touring bike, but they needed a lot of filing before my SPD shoes could move freely on the clip side.
Can't help with the tendinitis, I'm afraid. Good luck!
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Whatever works for you is what is best. I found that different brands of shoes allow different fore-and-aft cleat positions, by quite a bit.
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Would adjusting the saddle fore/aft position help?
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Re bike fit, no that's all been perfectly set up for me. It's the feet that are the problem..
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Could drill extra holes in the shoes, to fit the cleats further back.
Seems to be something of a fashion for "mid-foot cleats", especially for triathletes.
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Could you bodge a plate to the existing screw holes to mount the cleat in a suitable position for experimental purposes, before hacking up the shoe?
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I ve been meaning to thank you all for your advice on this.
So , I changed the cleats, followed QGs advice on pedals , and I can report that I do now get on with clipless.
Entry and exit is easy and the wider platform of the M324 make me feel more secure and in control
However, all is still not well. As I wear orthotics and have wide feet I usually go up a size in shoes. ie and 43/44 not a 42. Which means I can't get the cleat as far back as I would like. Certainly, not as far back as Steve Hogg would suggest I should
The effect of this is , I think peroneal tendonitis, in my right foot. My ankle still aches after an hour's ride this morning. The answer, may be wider shoes in a smaller size to bring the cleat position further back, but also a return to flats and toe clips.
Don't know if this might help or not, but have you tried loosening the tightness of you shoes (velcro/ratchet etc), to give your feet more room to move about.
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Whatever works for you is what is best. I found that different brands of shoes allow different fore-and-aft cleat positions, by quite a bit.
+1 on that.
cheers
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Whatever works for you is what is best. I found that different brands of shoes allow different fore-and-aft cleat positions, by quite a bit.
+1 on that.
cheers
This might help
For Shimano SPD shoes (other brands may have similar), ME type shoes have a longer placement range behind "ball of foot" and the AM have a standard range but it seems to start further back, the larger the shoe the further back. I also like mine slammed as far back as they can go, anything else feels bad. The "Shimano SH-AM501 MTB SPD Shoes - Olive" are my favourite and cheaper too
(https://www.bikebug.com/images/Addinfo/shimanospdcleatchart.jpg)
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I ve been meaning to thank you all for your advice on this.
So , I changed the cleats, followed QGs advice on pedals , and I can report that I do now get on with clipless.
Entry and exit is easy and the wider platform of the M324 make me feel more secure and in control
However, all is still not well. As I wear orthotics and have wide feet I usually go up a size in shoes. ie and 43/44 not a 42. Which means I can't get the cleat as far back as I would like. Certainly, not as far back as Steve Hogg would suggest I should
The effect of this is , I think peroneal tendonitis, in my right foot. My ankle still aches after an hour's ride this morning. The answer, may be wider shoes in a smaller size to bring the cleat position further back, but also a return to flats and toe clips.
If you have been reading Steve Hogg you have got into the world of mid-foot!
Your options are fairly limited, but they do exist.
1. Speedplay is the easiest to get set up mid-foot. They do an adaptor plate that allows you get further back than any other commercially available system. As per ^, if you start with the right Shimano shoes you'll be in a better position. They generally have the furthest back cleat position of any shoe brand.
2. Flat pedals. Sorry if you've ruled them out, but there are flat pedals specifically designed for midfoot, so worth mentioning again is this context: https://pedalinginnovations.com/
3. Bespoke shoes. Expensive, but would work
4. Drill a pair of shoes to fit cleats. Joe Friel and many others have done this with SPDs, but I don't think anyone gets it right first time. Scherrit Knoesen aka The Bike Whisperer (who is a disciple of Steve Hogg) does it very well with Speedplays.
Lots of people who ride midfoot started to do so in response to ankle issues.
If you do go midfoot you would need to re-do your bike fit.
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Did I mention my wide feet (G) and high arches? At the moment, the shoes that fit me best are either Dr Ms or Bluntstone / Redback boots! Shimano's shoes are famously narrow.
I went to see Scheritt some 9 years ago. He fitted insoles and insets to my shoes and that sorted the problem out then. However, I now need arch support in soles in all my shoes. Walking is pain free, running short distances provides me with a niggle, riding for an hours on SPDs means a day of ibuprofen and paracetamol. The the big ring is also to be avoided.
So, for the moment its rest, flat pedals, perhaps toe clips and old school cycle shoes...
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Shimano has a range of lasts/ shoe widths up to 2E, though not in all models.
https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/technologies/apparel-accessories/footwear/more-lasts.html
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What's 2E in UK sizes, a G?
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From https://www.healthyfeetstore.com/width-sizing-chart.html
"Width is an incredibly complex topic for the pedorthic (professional shoe fitting) community. Pedorthists - the professionals who fit shoes for a living - are often very hesitant to make sweeping statements regarding what shoe width a person should or should not wear. This is because most people don't know that there is no standard width system used by shoe manufacturers to determine the measurements of a narrow, medium, wide, or extra wide shoe. Shoe designers use their best judgment when deciding how wide to make a wide shoe and don't consult with one another before labeling the widths of their shoes."
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if you get on OK (or at least better) with flat pedals than clipless pedals this usually means there is a basic issue with shoes (which you might well have) and/or that there is a basic issue with how the pedal thrust is transmitted through the shoe to the pedal, in relation to how your foot works. In the latter instance this specifically relates to unintended movements of the foot under load. This is a complex business but some common issues of this type include;
a) that the centre of thrust is not aligned with the middle of the cleat.
b) that the foot tilts (sideways i.e. cambers) under load
c) that the foot twists (as viewed from above) under load, which I call 'squirming',
or a combination of the above. For example a) always causes a measure of b), and with some shoe/pedals systems this is both difficult to avoid entirely and soon develops into a major problem.
I am lucky because I have narrowish feet and the only noticeable problem I have is that my right foot squirms under load. What I have observed is that even my narrow feet are only just narrow enough that I don't run into an a) type problem. If you have wide feet I would say it is odd on that you should use pedals with longer spindles or pedal extenders with SPDs to avoid b).
If you have any of the above going on, you may well instinctively (without even realising that you are doing it) be using all kinds of small 'supporting' muscles to stabilise your foot when it is under load. This is something that soon overworks these smaller muscles and this typically causes all kinds of foot pains if you ride for long.
If you want to check for a) then simply try standing on something narrow (like a pencil) lengthwise under the foot, and see where it is most close to the balance point (which might be where an ice skate blade would be best located too). If this is not aligned with the middle of a small cleat (eg SPD) then you are already on a sticky wicket and (IMHO) you would be best advised to fix that before doing anything else.
With SPDs if you don't have the cleat centred the foot ends up being supported at the sides, often by parts of the shoe/pedal which will soon wear and let a b) type problem emerge more fully. In the meantime you can still have enough movement to make for bad foot pain without even knowing it.
hth
cheers
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Stands on the pencil. This confirms inward pronation on my right foot. Oh, and my left leg is stronger than the right- I won't share the pictures but one thigh is wider than the other.
Brucey, your description sounds about right. The pain has come on over the last year but I 've had the above for much longer.
Pre-ride exercise and stretching both help, but I think that it's riding under load that really irritates the tendon.
On line physio sites ( eg Bob and Brad) suggests that I need to do lots of stretching as well as pro-recptor exercises ie standing on one leg. So I'll carry on with that. When lockdown lifts I'll see if I can find a physio who knows what they are talking about
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(https://glorydays.cc/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Shoes-and-factory.jpg)
https://glorydays.cc/blog/cycle-shoes/
I use these. I find SPDs are ok to commute and probably better when you want to go fast. But I prefer riding in these for distance or riding fixed and so much easier to walk in. I use them wirh Mks Sylvan pedals and suede double straps.
SPuDs seem to cause me occasional knee problems as well.
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Hello, yes I have a pair of those shoes but mine have a leather sole.
They work with an Orthotic but I do find the toe box a bit small. I shall reaqauint my self with them.
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Whatever your foot placement is on flat pedals should be, I would suggest, the placement that you replicate with your cleat position.
Steve Hogg is very much an outlier. Only one pro, as far as I know, has anything like his position for their plates. I know we aren’t all pros, but these are people who ride more than almost anybody else, and who have a lot of measurements done for power etc.
If you are determined to use the rearward cleat position there are adapters available.
I’ve got wide feet. I only use Shimano wide Dynafit last shoes. I use Superfeet footbeds - various ones are available depending upon your arch height and sport. Some higher price point Shiman shoes come with adjustable arch support, and you can also buy these footbeds separately, although they take some tracking down.
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Thanks, I am aware of Steve Hogg's outlier status. Some of his views , eg the effect of plastics on the body , are a bit odd.
I think my problem is this...
Wide feet and high arches - the latter increase the likelihood of peroneal tendonitis
Muscle imbalance- my left leg is stronger than my right
Over pronation on the right foot.
My age - I am nearly 60
It seems that pressure through on the right foot via the forefoot ( ball of the foot) twists the foot and irritates the tendon leading to pain around the ankle
SPDs fitted using the ball of the foot method seem to irritate things. The same thing happens when running but not through walking. When I walk I strike the ground with heal and arch of the foot.
Not quite sure where to go next- lowering the saddle buggers up the other parts of fit, but doing so might reduce the stress on the ankle. Certainly , lower gear and flat pedals seem to help.
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I found several advantages to sliding the cleats a long way back but I don’t race, so the disadvantages mean little to me.
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Thanks, I am aware of Steve Hogg's outlier status. Some of his views , eg the effect of plastics on the body , are a bit odd.
I think my problem is this...
Wide feet and high arches - the latter increase the likelihood of peroneal tendonitis
Muscle imbalance- my left leg is stronger than my right
Over pronation on the right foot.
My age - I am nearly 60
It seems that pressure through on the right foot via the forefoot ( ball of the foot) twists the foot and irritates the tendon leading to pain around the ankle
SPDs fitted using the ball of the foot method seem to irritate things. The same thing happens when running but not through walking. When I walk I strike the ground with heal and arch of the foot.
Not quite sure where to go next- lowering the saddle buggers up the other parts of fit, but doing so might reduce the stress on the ankle. Certainly , lower gear and flat pedals seem to help.
If you get pain when you ride with a cleat on the ball of your foot then midfoot has to be worth a try.
SH is certainly going against the trend in advocating it but there are others who use it, eg coaches like Joe Friel and James Wilson. Amongst pro cyclists, Adam Hansen and a former womens' world champ whose name I can't remember. There are various others who I can't remember, but pro cyclists are a pretty conservative bunch who are not going to risk messing around with their foot position.
Where it is most common is amongst RAAM riders, and it is getting more widespread in unsupported ultraracing. You may not be doing that, but the motivator is usually to fix some sort of pain that people have experienced when riding with forefoot cleats. For me it was getting chronic shin pain during IndyPac.
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Madness is doing repeating the same action but expecting different results each time
Rode the bike again, but this time with toe clips and shoes. The ankle aches, so back on the ibuprofen.
I suspect it's positional and the answer may be a lower saddle. Any way, no riding the new bike for now and when the tendon has calmed down I 'll try a lower saddle , flat pedals and see what happens.
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Update-
So I switched to the M324 pedals and the easier cleats. That made a huge difference, much easier to click in and out and the feet feel much more supported.
However, given my wide feet I ve been riding size 9 or 44 shoes which, I now realise, can't give me a midfoot position and I really notice a loss of power generally and especially when climbing a hill.
So, I am now looking at Lake shoes which offer a wide 43 shoe. Lets see what happens.
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I've just bought a pair of Lake shoes in a wide fitting. I never realised it was actually possible to spend that much money on a pair of shoes but once i had got over the shock of that I must say that they are something of a revelation comfort wise. I used Salt Dog Cycling who are internet only but you can speak with them very easily (I say "them" but in reality it is just Richard who runs the whole thing) Richard was extremely helpful and he has a big range of Lake shoes.
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Good to hear that. I ve also discovered the Wide Fit shoe company in Harrow that does New Balance 4EE trainers. At last, shoes that fit.
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Update-
So I switched to the M324 pedals and the easier cleats. That made a huge difference, much easier to click in and out and the feet feel much more supported.
However, given my wide feet I ve been riding size 9 or 44 shoes which, I now realise, can't give me a midfoot position and I really notice a loss of power generally and especially when climbing a hill.
So, I am now looking at Lake shoes which offer a wide 43 shoe. Lets see what happens.
You may also want to look into Sidi Mega cycling shoes.. I tried Lakes and was rather disappointed in terms of their quality / longevity.