Author Topic: Losing on purpose - whose fault?  (Read 11822 times)

Re: Losing on purpose - whose fault?
« Reply #25 on: 01 August, 2012, 07:16:44 pm »
Perhaps where a nation is so dominant in one sport there's a case for limiting their involvement?

It almost feels like that's what's happened in track cycling over the last 10 years, with only one rider/team per event   :demon:

Back on topic, as I've written elsewhere, they played to the rules to ensure a more likely gold medal, and I can't see the problem with that - sport at this level is all about winning. If the rules were in error, then fix them, don't DQ the players after the fact.

I agree.
This story reminded me of the men's road race. There was a breakaway so everyone in the bunch, except for GB stopped racing and let them get away, letting GB do all the work while they sat in the bunch. Perhaps anyone who never did a turn on the front of the peleton should be DQ'd for not trying to win? I blame those who made the rules. "Not using best efforts" I'd say that good tactics are a part of a good effort. It doesn't make sense to deliberately make it harder if you want to win. I don't see how they brought badminton into disrepute. Just because the spectators never got the show they wanted. The player played to the rules IMO and it was the rule which made it a farce.

frankly frankie

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Re: Losing on purpose - whose fault?
« Reply #26 on: 02 August, 2012, 08:30:46 am »
In tournament bowls it's not uncommon for the last bowl in an end to be delivered short, or off line, in order not to risk disturbing the head.  Cheating the spectator - same thing, just different degree.
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Re: Losing on purpose - whose fault?
« Reply #27 on: 02 August, 2012, 08:42:30 am »
Utter rubbish.

Hitting the shuttle into the net is delibeartely losing the point. It is NOT equivalent to the two examples above.
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Biggsy

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Re: Losing on purpose - whose fault?
« Reply #28 on: 02 August, 2012, 08:52:03 am »
In tournament bowls it's not uncommon for the last bowl in an end to be delivered short, or off line, in order not to risk disturbing the head.  Cheating the spectator - same thing, just different degree.

That doesn't spoil my enjoyment as a spectator, whereas two teams trying to lose against each other for a whole match does.
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RJ

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Re: Losing on purpose - whose fault?
« Reply #29 on: 02 August, 2012, 02:07:39 pm »
Quote
Speaking before the verdict, Korea's coach Sung Han-kook said: "The Chinese started this. They did it first."

He's telling his dad.

A Bigger Country did it and ran away.

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Re: Losing on purpose - whose fault?
« Reply #30 on: 02 August, 2012, 02:21:25 pm »
In tournament bowls it's not uncommon for the last bowl in an end to be delivered short, or off line, in order not to risk disturbing the head.  Cheating the spectator - same thing, just different degree.

That doesn't spoil my enjoyment as a spectator, whereas two teams trying to lose against each other for a whole match does.

I agree that deliberately losing and hitting the shuttle into the net over and over again is not on. However I'm not sure if I can completely condemn playing tactically as I have played games tactically myself.

It's not uncommon in chess tournaments for players to agree draws in the last round and share prize money (I believe that once I did this with an esteemed bearded member of this parish). Although not playing to lose. playing down a main line of an opening and then agreeing an early draw is not exactly trying one's hardest nor very interesting for any spectators. It's definitely doesn't feel fair if you are 1pt behind going into the last round.
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Re: Losing on purpose - whose fault?
« Reply #31 on: 02 August, 2012, 03:24:44 pm »
I thought we were talking about sport?!?


;)
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mcshroom

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Re: Losing on purpose - whose fault?
« Reply #32 on: 02 August, 2012, 03:26:40 pm »
I thought we were talking about sport?!?


;)

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Re: Losing on purpose - whose fault?
« Reply #33 on: 02 August, 2012, 03:54:51 pm »
Still isn't a sport though.
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Re: Losing on purpose - whose fault?
« Reply #34 on: 02 August, 2012, 03:56:11 pm »
Chess isn't a sport. And as far as I'm concerned, neither is motor"sport". It would be if they took out the motors and made the participants power the vehicles themselves, preferably Flintstones-style. 
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clarion

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Re: Losing on purpose - whose fault?
« Reply #35 on: 02 August, 2012, 03:56:56 pm »
I know someone who printed a leaflet with lots of sports-related information on it and only realised later he'd mixed up FIDE and FINA.  Could have caused some curious conversations...
Getting there...

Re: Losing on purpose - whose fault?
« Reply #36 on: 02 August, 2012, 04:07:46 pm »
As cycling fans, we're surely not in the best position to criticize other sportspeople for not always trying their hardest to win! I mean, bike races often have neutralized stages or sections of stages; there are codes of conduct like not attacking in the food zone; riders in a breakaway often agree how to divide up the prizes on offer (say, that one gets the stage win and the other gets the mountain points); and fixing of minor races used to be commonplace (and maybe still is, I don't know).

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Re: Losing on purpose - whose fault?
« Reply #37 on: 02 August, 2012, 06:16:07 pm »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/PsOlh25LkBs&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/PsOlh25LkBs&rel=1</a>

(I can't find a longer/better clip - due to copyright clampdowns, I suppose).
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Re: Losing on purpose - whose fault?
« Reply #38 on: 02 August, 2012, 07:32:58 pm »
As cycling fans, we're surely not in the best position to criticize other sportspeople for not always trying their hardest to win! I mean, bike races often have neutralized stages or sections of stages; there are codes of conduct like not attacking in the food zone; riders in a breakaway often agree how to divide up the prizes on offer (say, that one gets the stage win and the other gets the mountain points); and fixing of minor races used to be commonplace (and maybe still is, I don't know).

That's a better analogy than mine. It could be argued that when a breakaway allocates the prize money for a prime sprint, that it spoils it for those who are watching the race at that particular prime sprint. It all boils down to using tactics and planning for the big win by sacrificing smaller victories. In a road race, the race is the big win, where in heats with finals, winning the final is the big win and everything else is a means of getting there. I still blame the organisers.

I expect that this doesn't happen in boxing.

IanDG

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Re: Losing on purpose - whose fault?
« Reply #39 on: 03 August, 2012, 12:27:52 am »
I have been told to loose in the past - 1978 VC Europa red drawn against VC Europa blue in the national team pursuit semi's - the aim was to give the reds an easier ride so that they would be fresher for the final against Teeside Clarion. The reds lost in the final and we got the bronze - 'technically' beating Halesowen who had mechanical problems at the start. I didn't like it but was 17 yrs old at the time and bowed to peer pressure. Was never really happy being part of the club after that, felt let down at the nationals (again) a year later and eventually left and went to ride for Halesowen.

edit: At the time there were semis in the team pursuit - The fastest qualifier from the last 8 rode against the slowest and the 2nd and 3rd fastest qualifiers rode against each other the winners going to the final, the losers to the bronze ride off. The current system of the fastest 2 winners from the 1/4 finals going to the gold ride off and the slowest 2 to the bronze, would have prevented my club from using this dubious tactic.

I see that the GB team sprint pulled off a 'crash' stunt to get a restart too - is this not a similar thing?

Re: Losing on purpose - whose fault?
« Reply #40 on: 03 August, 2012, 02:25:58 am »
Very much so, but if you can claim it's a 'mechanical', then you get a restart. Clearly it wasn't and he admitted so. In the interview with Jill Douglas afterwards, you could see Chris Hoy getting a bit stoney-faced while Hindes is putting his foot in his mouth.
I really hope I don't wake up to headlines about them being stripped of their medal. If the commissaires are being tough about an unwritten rule on where you can pass on the team sprint, it wouldn't be unreasonable for them to take a similarly tough line on this.
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IanDG

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Re: Losing on purpose - whose fault?
« Reply #41 on: 03 August, 2012, 07:42:53 am »
Very much so, but if you can claim it's a 'mechanical', then you get a restart. Clearly it wasn't and he admitted so. In the interview with Jill Douglas afterwards, you could see Chris Hoy getting a bit stoney-faced while Hindes is putting his foot in his mouth.
I really hope I don't wake up to headlines about them being stripped of their medal. If the commissaires are being tough about an unwritten rule on where you can pass on the team sprint, it wouldn't be unreasonable for them to take a similarly tough line on this.

In our bronze ride against Halesowen, Steve Jones pulled a wheel over and the rest of his team sat up expecting a restart  - this wasn't given, but if he had fallen off instead of grinding to a halt it would have been.

We technically caught them in our first lap and were given the bronze. So I got a national bronze team pursuit medal without having to race in the last 2 rides. My pursuit team got to the semis and it was great to win a medal. I would have been happier at the time if it had been won after a good scrap with Halesowen over 12 laps of the track.

mattc

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Re: Losing on purpose - whose fault?
« Reply #42 on: 03 August, 2012, 09:22:55 am »

I see that the GB team sprint pulled off a 'crash' stunt to get a restart too - is this not a similar thing?
It was probably cheating, but not at all similar. It wasn't pre-meditated - they screwed up and fell back on a loophole to get themselves out of jail.

THATS NOT THE SAME AS GOING INTO A GAME PLANNING TO LOSE IT DELIBERATELY.

Likewise the other cycling examples - in each case the riders are striving to win something.
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LittleWheelsandBig

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Re: Losing on purpose - whose fault?
« Reply #43 on: 03 August, 2012, 09:35:13 am »
The 'crashing at the start of a track race to get a restart' ploy goes back at least 2 decades. The German lad's problem was mentioning it to the wider public, being honest. I'm not in favour of the restart rule but I'm not in charge.
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Re: Losing on purpose - whose fault?
« Reply #44 on: 03 August, 2012, 09:36:46 am »
It has more analogy with the athletics false start rule than with the badminton fiasco.
It is simpler than it looks.

Jakob

Re: Losing on purpose - whose fault?
« Reply #45 on: 03 August, 2012, 09:57:42 am »

I see that the GB team sprint pulled off a 'crash' stunt to get a restart too - is this not a similar thing?
It was probably cheating, but not at all similar. It wasn't pre-meditated - they screwed up and fell back on a loophole to get themselves out of jail.

THATS NOT THE SAME AS GOING INTO A GAME PLANNING TO LOSE IT DELIBERATELY.

Likewise the other cycling examples - in each case the riders are striving to win something.

No, it's even worse.It's realizing that you've screwed up and then making a dive. It's no different than a football player over running the ball and then diving to get a penalty.
The badminton players were also striving to win something...which is why they needed to lose a game in order ensure maximum result.

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Re: Losing on purpose - whose fault?
« Reply #46 on: 03 August, 2012, 10:00:42 am »
No, it's even worse.It's realizing that you've screwed up and then making a dive. It's no different than a football player over running the ball and then diving to get a penalty.
Fine. Whatever - it's still got no relevance to the badminton.

Quote
The badminton players were also striving to win something...which is why they needed to lose a game in order ensure maximum result.
There was no striving involved - just hitting it into the net.
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Jakob

Re: Losing on purpose - whose fault?
« Reply #47 on: 03 August, 2012, 10:29:30 am »
Quote
The badminton players were also striving to win something...which is why they needed to lose a game in order ensure maximum result.
There was no striving involved - just hitting it into the net.
[/quote]

Yes..so that they had a bigger chance of reaching the final.

IanDG

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Re: Losing on purpose - whose fault?
« Reply #48 on: 03 August, 2012, 10:36:30 am »
No, it's even worse.It's realizing that you've screwed up and then making a dive. It's no different than a football player over running the ball and then diving to get a penalty.
Fine. Whatever - it's still got no relevance to the badminton.

Quote
The badminton players were also striving to win something...which is why they needed to lose a game in order ensure maximum result.
There was no striving involved - just hitting it into the net.

Relevance to the badminton situation? Making a decision to carry out an act to improve your chances of higher glory. He didn't fall off because of a mechanical fault he made a conscious decision (after his wheel skipped) to fall off and get a restart.

The badminton players were striving to win something higher by losing a heat to give themselves an easier path to the finals - tactics

Is there a rule that says a competitor must be seen to be doing their best at all times?

There's a motto 'win at all costs' - so is loosing a 'battle' to win the 'war' such a bad thing?

mattc

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Re: Losing on purpose - whose fault?
« Reply #49 on: 03 August, 2012, 10:38:23 am »
OK, I give in - they are both the same.

They are both sportspersons taking decisions.

 ::-)
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