Post by: salar55 on 02 July, 2021, 08:19:13 am
Post by: mcshroom on 02 July, 2021, 08:52:20 am
Post by: grams on 02 July, 2021, 08:55:16 am
Post by: road-runner on 02 July, 2021, 09:06:31 am
I can and love reading maps but I cannot fix a bike mid-ride like others can. We each have the things we enjoy and/or have concentrated on getting better at. Together we make a great team.
Post by: nuttycyclist on 02 July, 2021, 09:20:50 am
Sheep need a shepherd. Not all cyclists are born leaders; some need help and directions to get through a ride.:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I can and love reading maps but I cannot fix a bike mid-ride like others can. We each have the things we enjoy and/or have concentrated on getting better at. Together we make a great team.
Met a group at Crawford, asked one what way they were going? Reply was Edinburgh tonight , next question was, going up the side of the A9? . Reply was don't know just following the track on the Garmin. Have asked the same question on the Badger divide. Is it a case of done it but never had a clue of where I was each day for lots of cyclists. Before the age of the Garmin most cyclists in our club just followed the leader, they could not read a map when out of their local area.It's not just map reading/garmin/etc. It's always been the case. I recall going out for an organised walk, which was a 35 minute drive to the start. I simply drove there, but we passed several cars from the group who were at the side of the road and were lost (the bypass was a "new road" not on their map). It hadn't occurred to me to look at a map as I considered anything within that distance as "local" and so knew where to go; whereas I fear other people never venture more than a few miles from their house.
Post by: Paul H on 02 July, 2021, 09:27:03 am
Post by: Lightning Phil on 02 July, 2021, 09:50:24 am
Post by: citoyen on 02 July, 2021, 09:55:48 am
For most of them, I had absolutely no idea where we were a lot of the time, beyond a vague idea of the area. I was just enjoying riding with the group and following the old hands who knew the way (until I got experienced enough to memorise the routes, in a turn-by-turn style). But it never really seemed important enough to worry about.
Riding solo is a different matter. I'll often take a road I've never ridden before just to see where it goes. Exploring in this way does help give you a much better feel for your local area, and how everything joins up. I remember when I was about 14 going out for a leisurely weekend bike ride with a friend, exploring the local countryside. I had only lived in the area a year or so, he had been there all his life, yet I was the one who knew where we were while he was completely lost.
Another time, a different friend and I decided to ride to Brighton one weekend, on a whim. We had no idea of the route, just a vague idea of the direction and distance, and just made it up as we went along. It was a great day out. We got to Brighton without mishap, and the next day we rode home again. I couldn't possibly tell you the route we used.
I never bothered looking at routes on maps until I started riding with GPS.
Post by: grams on 02 July, 2021, 11:03:39 am
Even in rides I’ve planned and have a clear mental picture of I might not be able to articulate a clear answer to where I am or where I’m going without more mental effort than a casual stranger warrants.
It’s probably *worse* on roads I know well as it’ll just be endless “y’know, *that* road” in my head.
Post by: FifeingEejit on 02 July, 2021, 12:50:53 pm
People are still having miserable days out chasing that bucket list completion.
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Post by: citoyen on 02 July, 2021, 12:57:41 pm
People are still having miserable days out chasing that bucket list completion.
And those who completed it pre-GPS now have to go back and do it all again so they can put it on Strava.
Post by: FifeingEejit on 02 July, 2021, 01:01:10 pm
Maybe the hiking equivalent of a trace on Strava is a walk report on Walk Highlands?
"Ben Chonzie, glad to get this phony over, dull trudge through minging weather and midgies, visibility 5cm, can't pronounce the name and it isn't even Gaelic." tick.
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Post by: ravenbait on 02 July, 2021, 01:12:44 pm
Strava's piss poor support for anything that isn't running or cycling means generally it's not on strava anyway.
I record all my walks and hikes on my Garmin watch, which auto-uploads to Strava. I had to laugh last week, though -- we did an impromptu climb of Mount Keen on a scorching hot day (we'd intended to walk to Queen's Well, but it took hardly any time and we'd started early, packed for a decent hike). It was nearly the end of us. But Strava reckoned that was about half as much effort as the easy 53km I did on the bike the week before.
I like to plan routes and generally know where I am. Always have done. I have a fine map collection, and I don't use GPS except to record, although recently I've been vaguely considering getting one for the bike.
Sam
Post by: FifeingEejit on 02 July, 2021, 01:18:58 pm
The advantage of doing that for me is being able to record which shoes I wore and thus when freaking out St how worn the soles of my boots are look at strava and see I've done a good 300km in them and no wonder they're gubbed.
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Post by: De Sisti on 02 July, 2021, 01:34:14 pm
Met a group at Crawford, asked one what way they were going? Reply was Edinburgh tonight , next question was, going up the side of the A9? . Reply was don't know just following the track on the Garmin.When you ask such questions, do you, without hesitation or prompting say where you're
going to?* No? I didn't think you did. When I get asked where I'm going to, or where I'm
from, I always ask the individual to introduce themselves to me. :demon: Cue them being all
sheepish, shy and wanting to get away sharpish to continue their journey to find the
next rider to interrogate. :P
*No offence intended.
Post by: salar55 on 02 July, 2021, 02:05:39 pm
Post by: salar55 on 02 July, 2021, 06:26:50 pm
Post by: citoyen on 03 July, 2021, 06:53:39 am
Was just asking as one of them decided he needed to wear another pair of cycling shorts from the support van for more padding, must have been an awesome ride that morning
Good grief.
It sounds like these guys were on the kind of ride a friend of mine organises - he has a business running supported expeditions, usually to iconic locations like Ventoux etc. He supplies a gpx file of the route for the riders to put on their devices, so I can well believe that many of them just follow it blindly without having a clue where they are going. I guess for these people, route planning is not the part of the adventure they’re interested in.
He follows behind in the support van. I doubt that many of his customers are hardened audaxers.
Post by: nobby on 03 July, 2021, 08:45:21 am
......... whereas I fear other people never venture more than a few miles from their house.Some are happiest developing a sound knowledge of a few miles from their house.
Alastair Humphreys, who has been exploring the world since his post university days, has hit middle age and toned down his exploring to suit. He is now visiting every square on his local OS map and blogging about the experiences.
Post by: tatanab on 03 July, 2021, 09:02:52 am
He supplies a gpx file of the route for the riders to put on their devices, so I can well believe that many of them just follow it blindly without having a clue where they are going. I guess for these people, route planning is not the part of the adventure they’re interested in.5 years ago I rode Channel to the Med and back. To make sure that I went, I dipped my hand in my pocket and booked a southbound organised and supported trip. At the southern end, other participants were packing up their bikes to fly home while I was loading mine with my camping kit. One of the group asked about my plans and I said "none, except I want to be in St Malo on Bastille Day". The reply was along the lines of "but you haven't got a route to follow, how on earth will you manage?" This was from a chap in his 50s, not a modern rider brought up on GPS being necessary.
One of my favourite "where are you going" questions was when I had just come over the Pyrenees and was caught by a local clubrun. One rider dropped back for a chat and asked the question, to which I replied "St Malo".
Me- I am not an Audax rider, just a plain old club riding tourist.
Post by: Paul H on 03 July, 2021, 10:36:30 am
Was just asking as one of them decided he needed to wear another pair of cycling shorts from the support van for more padding, must have been an awesome ride that morning 😀Is there some scale where awesomeness is measured by underwear? Is there a Strava group for it? How many points for fifty miles in M&S Y-fronts?
The question I'm most likely to ask is if they're having a good day, they can decide for themselves how awesome it is.
Post by: rogerzilla on 03 July, 2021, 11:49:21 am
The British are a strange lot, cycling in the UK is all about the bike you ride, it's the class or tribe you belong to. Europeans have a different attitude, riding a bike says you are a cyclist. A group of roadies talking to touring cyclists on MTBs set up for touring is just not done here in the UK 🤔.This is true.
Post by: nobby on 03 July, 2021, 12:22:08 pm
I find that Roadies in a group often find it amusing to shout Allez, Allez, in my ear as they flash past. One one occasion I came across such a group at the side of the road a few miles on with a broken bike and no tool to fix it. I was ever so pleased to be able to lend them something appropriate from my copious, but slow travelling, toolkit. :)The British are a strange lot, cycling in the UK is all about the bike you ride, it's the class or tribe you belong to. Europeans have a different attitude, riding a bike says you are a cyclist. A group of roadies talking to touring cyclists on MTBs set up for touring is just not done here in the UK 🤔.This is true.
Having said that, solo older roadies are in another class altogether. I find them most generous with their spare bananas and boiled sweets.
Post by: Lightning Phil on 03 July, 2021, 01:32:12 pm
If you are following the GPS. Unless you are the one who plotted it, you won’t necessary know which roads it traverses. Nor will you need to care. Navigation by road number works well in France , not so well here.
You can also navigate village to village if that’s your way needing neither map , GPS or compass.
Post by: yoav on 03 July, 2021, 08:44:24 pm
Post by: FifeingEejit on 05 July, 2021, 11:33:17 pm
It's fairly reasonable to know if you're going up the middle of Scotland.
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Post by: sg37409 on 05 July, 2021, 11:45:44 pm
The A9 goes fromStirlingPolmont to ....
;D
Post by: FifeingEejit on 06 July, 2021, 12:13:29 am
Shite yes so it does.The A9 goes fromStirlingPolmont to ....
;D
I'd forgotten about the bits that remain despite the M9 existing
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Post by: ravenbait on 06 July, 2021, 09:54:38 am
Sam
Post by: FifeingEejit on 06 July, 2021, 02:47:46 pm
I can't work out where this is. Crawford's in Lanarkshire, thobut? Or England somewhere? Nowhere near the A9.Crawford is just off the A74(M) in what we can call the south of Scotland.
Sam
Edinburgh where they appear to have been heading for an overnight stop is to the north east of there and is in central Scotland.
The question of whether they were travelling north up the A9 corridor after their overnight in edinburgh was unanswerable as they didn't know.
The assumption would be that they are lejoging a supported tourist route.
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Post by: yoav on 06 July, 2021, 03:20:06 pm
Post by: Rod Marton on 06 July, 2021, 03:32:16 pm
Post by: citoyen on 06 July, 2021, 03:41:54 pm
Certainly wouldn't cycle on it.
Post by: lissotriton on 06 July, 2021, 03:45:53 pm
Can also follow it on the old maps from the NLS. https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/
Post by: ravenbait on 06 July, 2021, 04:02:06 pm
The question of whether they were travelling north up the A9 corridor after their overnight in edinburgh was unanswerable as they didn't know.
That's the part of the geographical equation I was missing, thanks. Mind you, I constantly* complain that it's unfair Belgium and Bolivia aren't near each other and think countries should be arranged alphabetically. My geography is utterly appalling.
Sam
*Obvious hyperbole. I only complain about it when I get a geography question wrong.
Post by: Pingu on 06 July, 2021, 04:02:40 pm
Presumably the original A9 ran from Edinburgh to Thurso but the M9 superseded it up to Stirling? Is any of the original A9 from Edinburgh to Stirling identifiable? Perhaps as a series B roads. I would like to try to follow if it is possible.
I think it originally went to John o'Groats.
Post by: FifeingEejit on 06 July, 2021, 05:13:05 pm
Is it the A9 that goes to Pitlochry? I drove up it once. Never again. Horrible road.Yes.
Certainly wouldn't cycle on it.
Theres pleasant enough cycling alternatives to it.
Rumour has it that once the upgrade is complete it'll be like the edinburgh bypass and have restrictions similar to motorways applied.
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Post by: ravenbait on 06 July, 2021, 06:03:09 pm
Yes.
Theres pleasant enough cycling alternatives to it.
Rumour has it that once the upgrade is complete it'll be like the edinburgh bypass and have restrictions similar to motorways applied.
It wouldn't surprise me. That's what they did with the Aberdeen bypass.
Sam
Post by: salar55 on 06 July, 2021, 08:18:05 pm
Post by: mzjo on 06 July, 2021, 09:27:01 pm
Locally I know the roads very well, many of them not signed. But even the lanes that are named I don’t pay attention to that, as it’s not necessary for navigation. I just know where I’ll end up if I head down it and what the options lead to as I come to the junctions. Mental navigation maps don’t need road names.
If you are following the GPS. Unless you are the one who plotted it, you won’t necessary know which roads it traverses. Nor will you need to care. Navigation by road number works well in France , not so well here.
You can also navigate village to village if that’s your way needing neither map , GPS or compass.
It's knowing where I'm going (even when I make up my mind at each junction) that stops me learning how to follow a trace on the garmin (even though I like looking at the pretty line on the unit afterwards it serves no real purpose). But I don't know a single road number round me in France, other than the nationales where I don't ride!
Post by: Feanor on 06 July, 2021, 09:39:08 pm
The hours spent looking at maps on the PC designing the route are hours saved on the road.
You are just moving a bunch of route planning ahead of the ride, rather than on it.
Post by: nuttycyclist on 06 July, 2021, 09:46:31 pm
Post by: salar55 on 06 July, 2021, 10:26:45 pm
We have changed plans often, road works , weather etc even had a few film crews with the police enforcing closed roads for new car adverts in the mountains.
Post by: nuttycyclist on 06 July, 2021, 11:24:32 pm
As an example, locally, we got stuck in a massive queue due to staycationers trying to get home. We were on a time limit to get somewhere which should have been a 20 minute drive. I didn't have to look at the map, nor program the satnav, I just told Mrs Nutty which turning to take and back roads to follow. Very nasty route, and added 10 minutes to the journey (checking online later), but based on the stationary traffic (still there when we went home 4 hours later) was significantly quicker than sitting in the jam.
Post by: FifeingEejit on 07 July, 2021, 12:15:37 am
Sitting at the computer or spending hours studying maps, why? It's heading out and wondering what the day brings appeals to me.I think it's fair to say you know a fair whack of Scotland rather well.
We have changed plans often, road works , weather etc even had a few film crews with the police enforcing closed roads for new car adverts in the mountains.
I'm reasonably confident of my route knowledge in the Highlands and Midlands, central belt quite a bit less! D&G and borders a wee bit better.
Don't think the guys you came across had any real idea of their route or where they were though.
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Post by: salar55 on 07 July, 2021, 09:58:39 am
It's getting the awareness of the area ahead of time, so that when the weather changes/roads are closed/etc you are comfortable in changing route on the fly without need to resort to a detailed map and try to plan anything. Just being aware of the towns/etc that will appear on the roadsigns is enough to give you the ability to go explore in the rough general direction you need to go.
As an example, locally, we got stuck in a massive queue due to staycationers trying to get home. We were on a time limit to get somewhere which should have been a 20 minute drive. I didn't have to look at the map, nor program the satnav, I just told Mrs Nutty which turning to take and back roads to follow. Very nasty route, and added 10 minutes to the journey (checking online later), but based on the stationary traffic (still there when we went home 4 hours later) was significantly quicker than sitting in the jam.
Nutty the satnav will have everyone trying to do the same today, it's a standard feature now😭 Haven't the lanes become busy because the satnav gives some drivers confidence to leave the main roads and (explore) now.
Post by: mzjo on 07 July, 2021, 12:51:40 pm
The hours spent looking at maps are invaluable when the planned route turns out to be a sustrans NCN unmade gravel track, it makes it so much easier to divert and plan a new route on the fly.
The hours spent over maps, paper or screen, are hours wasted if you are planning a route for a club event and it all depends on a road shown on the map but that doesn't exist. Nothing beats time in the field (or preferably on a road).DAHIKT
Post by: Kim on 07 July, 2021, 01:10:02 pm
Sitting at the computer or spending hours studying maps, why?
Because maps are fun. Doubly so when you're stuck indoors.
(Also, what Feanor said.)
Post by: mzjo on 07 July, 2021, 01:24:39 pm
Sitting at the computer or spending hours studying maps, why?
Because maps are fun. Doubly so when you're stuck indoors.
(Also, what Feanor said.)
Yeah, maps are fun; I collect them, I study them, I get distracted by them, I have fantasies about the places that they show (particularly the roads)! I sometimes think though that there is a missing link between my cycling (locally) and my map "reading" (as in studying but not as seriously). They are not necessarily mutually inclusive!
Post by: Lightning Phil on 07 July, 2021, 01:59:18 pm
Recommended routes up through glaciers change year to year and even month to month or week to week etc.
Altimeter watches essential aids for the nav.
Post by: salar55 on 07 July, 2021, 03:37:51 pm
Post by: nuttycyclist on 07 July, 2021, 05:07:53 pm
It's getting the awareness of the area ahead of time, so that when the weather changes/roads are closed/etc you are comfortable in changing route on the fly without need to resort to a detailed map and try to plan anything. Just being aware of the towns/etc that will appear on the roadsigns is enough to give you the ability to go explore in the rough general direction you need to go.
As an example, locally, we got stuck in a massive queue due to staycationers trying to get home. We were on a time limit to get somewhere which should have been a 20 minute drive. I didn't have to look at the map, nor program the satnav, I just told Mrs Nutty which turning to take and back roads to follow. Very nasty route, and added 10 minutes to the journey (checking online later), but based on the stationary traffic (still there when we went home 4 hours later) was significantly quicker than sitting in the jam.
Nutty the satnav will have everyone trying to do the same today, it's a standard feature now😭 Haven't the lanes become busy because the satnav gives some drivers confidence to leave the main roads and (explore) now.
You think I chose the satnav preferred route? :P
Whenever I take the motorbike to the office my objective is to knock 15 minutes or more off the journey time. Sat nav always objects when I deviate from the route, then re-calculates, then plans a new route that is 5 minutes faster.
The human brain, which has looked at the maps and knows the general area (it's a 2 hour commute) always beats both the sat nav as well as the people following a sat nav deviation on the times there are unusual congestion issues.