Author Topic: Shimano 105 going electronic  (Read 3673 times)

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Shimano 105 going electronic
« Reply #25 on: 16 September, 2021, 05:56:06 pm »
There is a picture of the charging port on this page (BikeRadar). I've no idea of its weatherproofing, but I'd be very surprised if it hasn't been thoroughly tested. I assume the new XTR is the same, and that is likely to have to deal with far worse!

Re: Shimano 105 going electronic
« Reply #26 on: 16 September, 2021, 07:09:25 pm »
Problem is, there is a huge leap in price to Di2 (compare mechanical amd electronic Ultegra), so they're pricing a lot of people out of the market.  I have absolutely zero interest in electronic shifting, anyway.  It doesn't solve any problems for me.  If they could invent a self-cleaning drivetrain, *that* would be attractive.
Oooooo. Now you're talking !
Rust never sleeps

Re: Shimano 105 going electronic
« Reply #27 on: 16 September, 2021, 08:20:59 pm »
In the motorbike world they have a thing called X-ring chains which are sealed units, internally lubricated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-ring_chain.

Also roller chains made from plastic exist.

If somebody was to invent a bicycle chain that needed no lubrication and was simply replaced at say 5,000 or 10,000 km intervals I think they would be on to a winner, as long as it was as efficient as a steel chain.
"There are proven ways; play on the certain knowledge of their superiority, the mystique of secret covenant, the esprit of shared suffering"

Pedal Castro

  • so talented I can run with scissors - ouch!
    • Two beers or not two beers...
Re: Shimano 105 going electronic
« Reply #28 on: 16 September, 2021, 08:48:15 pm »
I put Di2 Ultegra on my last build just to try it out. It's different but not sufficiently better that I would do it again.

Wait until its 6 years old and it still shifts like new, without ever having had to recable, lube cable, change outers (ballache if internal) or adjust indexing. You might feel different about it....I did.
Mine is 3 years old and I do need to adjust the gearing as the last 3 cogs at the bottom end doesn't run smoothly. I must have a second attempt at sorting it I suppose.

I'd be happy if it were still all down tube friction shifters, of which I still have 2 bikes set up that way.

Hot Flatus

  • Mediocre polyglot.Scoutmaster and nudist
Re: Shimano 105 going electronic
« Reply #29 on: 16 September, 2021, 09:21:34 pm »
Well, yes, if you are happy with downtube cable shifters then you probably wouldn't particularly value what Di2 offers.

What I'm saying is that Di2 grew on me. I bought a bike with Di2, hydro discs and tubeless tyres 6 years ago, and of all three technologies Di2 was the one that I felt was a bit meh. The shifting was not really better than my (super skilled) mechanical efforts.

However, a few years later I really understood the benefits and in particular on a winter bike where cable shifting degrades pretty quickly of you ride in all weathers.

I'm not sure it's particularly worth it on a summer bike (much like tubeless)

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Shimano 105 going electronic
« Reply #30 on: 17 September, 2021, 07:07:02 am »
I've never bought a bike with Di2. I build my bikes from whatever components I feel are appropriate and I can afford and want to try, and I upgrade them from time to time. The first bike I put Di2 on was my summer Boardman SLS, several years ago, and I was immediately impressed with its accuracy and speed of shifting compared to the 105 5700 it came with (which was transferred to my son's Cannondale). I then built a Boardman Air TT with the same Ultegra 6850 Di2 groupset. Having the ability to change gears from both riding positions was great, but TTs turned out not to be my thing and that one sits unloved in the back of the garage!

My next foray into electronic gears was my Ritchey Break-Away, which has travelled with me to many parts of the world since I originally built it in 2009. I'd suffered a few times with problems related to travel - bent gear hangers, everything out of adjustment, the faff of reconnecting and disconnecting cables on every trip. The Ritchey is probably my favourite bike, and when Red ETAP came out I saw it as the answer to many of the problems of travelling with a de-constructable bike. It was some time before I could afford it, but eventually I splashed out - and it transformed the experience. The ability to not just not have to reconnect cables (Bowden or electric), but to be able to remove vulnerable bits like the rear mech without worrying about having to set it up again after it was replaced, made taking the bike away so much more pleasurable. The fact that the kit performs so well is a bonus, but it is (or was) an expensive luxury even compared to Ultegra Di2, and I won't be replacing it with AXS now I'm retired.

The last bike I built before retirement was intended for a LEJoG attempt (which advancing arthritis has unfortunately nixxed), and that uses Ultegra Di2 8050. The upgrade to the firmware which allows total customisation of the gear-changing logic was something of a revelation, and I've had many happy hours playing with the possibilities. I like the simple logic of Sram's setup, and I can kind of replicate that, though I've tried it and gone back to traditional Shimano mapping. The map that allows the kit to decide which mech moves when you want to change up or down (to achieve the smallest ratio change) is fascinating, as is the logic which prevents extreme cross-chaining - which is a bit of a life- (or chain-) saver when you're using an 11-42 on the back, as I am. The new Di2 looks to have extended the options. It's unlikely I'll be buying it unless I have to replace an existing set up, or decide to buy an off-the-peg bike with it, but I shall certainly enjoy testing it when I get the opportunity to borrow one from my LBS!

T42

  • Old fool in a hurry
Re: Shimano 105 going electronic
« Reply #31 on: 17 September, 2021, 08:23:39 am »
Knowing SFA about Di2 other than that I can't afford it, I've just been through this https://bettershifting.com/di2-for-dummies-beginners-guide-to-di2-manual/ and decided that I don't want it either.  I had a shufti at the latest Ultegra DM as well.  Jesus wept: more connectors to get screwed up, little blobby external doo-hickeys to get in the way, more real estate on the frame/handlebars usurped, and bloody wee blinkenlichts to be kept an eye on.

Colour me Luddite.  I'm going to lay in a big enough stock of cables and shifter covers to last me until I croak.

Di2 (and Sram ETAP) uses no more 'real estate' than mechanical groupsets - less, as there's no cabling at all in ETAP, and none on the bars with the new Di2. The old Di2 (and the new 105 Di2 is likely to be similar) has a very simple wiring layout that's much easier than mechanical cabling to install. And it never needs adjusting. As HF says, charging is required about every 1000km. It's as easy as charging your phone. It's expensive compared to mechanical shifting, but it is far better. And, as Frank says, it's likely to be the default choice before too long - and a lot cheaper.

The Ultegra DM shows various positions for charging points etc., one of which is on the end of the bars, and another on a doo-hickey zip-tied to the bars or under the stem. Sorry, space already taken.
New DI2 has no Doohickey. The brake levers have coin cells that are supposed to last a year, and the chargepoint for the rest of it is on the derailleur.

That sounds better.  Hardly worth 4k€, though.
But they never got to Carcassonne.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Моя планета голубая, я люблю тебя и обнимаю
Re: Shimano 105 going electronic
« Reply #32 on: 17 September, 2021, 08:33:53 am »
My next foray into electronic gears was my Ritchey Break-Away, which has travelled with me to many parts of the world since I originally built it in 2009. I'd suffered a few times with problems related to travel - bent gear hangers, everything out of adjustment, the faff of reconnecting and disconnecting cables on every trip.
It would be great if electronic shifting could sense somehow that the gear hanger was out of line and adjust the movements of the mech accordingly. Perhaps it could (perhaps at some point it will?) be done with some sort of NFC chips marking each end of the cassette; the shifters or the mech would know the spacing and hey presto! Obviously an extremely bent hanger would still be a problem but minimal amounts might not be a problem cos the mech would be moving relative to the sprockets, not to its starting point. That and the self-cleaning drive chain please!
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Shimano 105 going electronic
« Reply #33 on: 17 September, 2021, 08:59:28 am »
I'm sure it's do-able. And if it is demanded by the pros, it would filter down to regular users soon enough. Especially the self-cleaning chain (even more if it cleaned the cassette too!).

Cudzoziemiec

  • Моя планета голубая, я люблю тебя и обнимаю
Re: Shimano 105 going electronic
« Reply #34 on: 17 September, 2021, 09:15:54 am »
Pros are never going to demand a self-cleaning chain – they have team mechanics for that! Though maybe in cyclocross?
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

Re: Shimano 105 going electronic
« Reply #35 on: 17 September, 2021, 11:00:12 am »
I'm never going to buy electronic shifting, too old and don't cycle enough.

However, I can see massive advantages over brifters.

brifters, whether they are shimano, campag or whoever are mechanically complex, very difficult to repair and fail catastrophically.

An electronic switch is going to be vastly simpler (the switch should be cheaper, it will be cheaper to make), easier to replace if broken and (probably) be upgradeable.

There is a small amount of extra complexity at the changer end, but not a lot.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Shimano 105 going electronic
« Reply #36 on: 17 September, 2021, 11:07:37 am »
My next foray into electronic gears was my Ritchey Break-Away, which has travelled with me to many parts of the world since I originally built it in 2009. I'd suffered a few times with problems related to travel - bent gear hangers, everything out of adjustment, the faff of reconnecting and disconnecting cables on every trip.
It would be great if electronic shifting could sense somehow that the gear hanger was out of line and adjust the movements of the mech accordingly. Perhaps it could (perhaps at some point it will?) be done with some sort of NFC chips marking each end of the cassette; the shifters or the mech would know the spacing and hey presto! Obviously an extremely bent hanger would still be a problem but minimal amounts might not be a problem cos the mech would be moving relative to the sprockets, not to its starting point. That and the self-cleaning drive chain please!

This is pretty much how it works already. You set it to the middle sprocket and it knows the spacing and how many sprockets you have, so should never over-shift in either direction (there are still limit screws on the mech though). And unlike cables, it will never wear or stretch, so should always stay true. If it goes out of alignment for some reason, you can put it into adjustment mode by holding the button and then use the shifters to move it in small increments until is realigned. You can do this while riding.

That said, the only time I've had a problem with Di2 was, I suspect, due to a bent hanger - not my fault, it was an ex-test bike and I suspect had received some fairly brutal treatment. I shifted into lowest gear at the start of a steep climb and the rear mech got fouled in the wheel, wrecking it. Very expensive to replace, alas, but since I didn't pay for the bike, that took some of the sting out of it.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Shimano 105 going electronic
« Reply #37 on: 17 September, 2021, 02:11:09 pm »
The Ultegra DM shows various positions for charging points etc., one of which is on the end of the bars, and another on a doo-hickey zip-tied to the bars or under the stem. Sorry, space already taken.
The new system has the charging point in the rear mech.

Out of curiosity, what kind of connnector are they using for the charging port, and how water/crud proof does it seem given it's exposed location?

Not seen the new connect but I suspect it will be the same/similar to the connector on the bar end or stem box.  simple 2 pin with a push cover.

I have replaced the pads on my hydraulic ultra but have no idea what to do about the hydraulics but then I have not adjusted the car hydraulics since replacing all the brake pipes on a MG Midget in the snow in 1982

Cudzoziemiec

  • Моя планета голубая, я люблю тебя и обнимаю
Re: Shimano 105 going electronic
« Reply #38 on: 17 September, 2021, 03:03:02 pm »
I have a question, which has probably been answered but perhaps not in this thread. Are different varieties of Di2 compatible? Can you use eg DA shifters with a 105 mech, if they're both 12-speed? And what is it that decides whether it's 12-speed, 11-speed or whatever: is it the shifters or the mechs, or both? Could you for instance pair a supposedly 11-speed older Di2 shifter with a new 12-speed mech and it would work? What about the other way round?
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

Re: Shimano 105 going electronic
« Reply #39 on: 17 September, 2021, 04:50:16 pm »
I'm sure it's do-able. And if it is demanded by the pros, it would filter down to regular users soon enough. Especially the self-cleaning chain (even more if it cleaned the cassette too!).

Pros are told what they are going to ride, not vice versa I’m afraid.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Shimano 105 going electronic
« Reply #40 on: 17 September, 2021, 05:50:31 pm »
I have a question, which has probably been answered but perhaps not in this thread. Are different varieties of Di2 compatible? Can you use eg DA shifters with a 105 mech, if they're both 12-speed? And what is it that decides whether it's 12-speed, 11-speed or whatever: is it the shifters or the mechs, or both? Could you for instance pair a supposedly 11-speed older Di2 shifter with a new 12-speed mech and it would work? What about the other way round?

For values of.

I don't know how it works with mixing 12 speed and 11 speed. But within 11 speed you can mix and match. As long as both derailleur match. So you can use two xtr mechs with ultegra shifters. Or visa versa. Or as i do, XT mechs with Dura ace shifters.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Моя планета голубая, я люблю тебя и обнимаю
Re: Shimano 105 going electronic
« Reply #41 on: 17 September, 2021, 08:13:10 pm »
I have a question, which has probably been answered but perhaps not in this thread. Are different varieties of Di2 compatible? Can you use eg DA shifters with a 105 mech, if they're both 12-speed? And what is it that decides whether it's 12-speed, 11-speed or whatever: is it the shifters or the mechs, or both? Could you for instance pair a supposedly 11-speed older Di2 shifter with a new 12-speed mech and it would work? What about the other way round?

For values of.

I don't know how it works with mixing 12 speed and 11 speed. But within 11 speed you can mix and match. As long as both derailleur match. So you can use two xtr mechs with ultegra shifters. Or visa versa. Or as i do, XT mechs with Dura ace shifters.

J
So you can't have eg XT at the front and DA at the back even if all 12 speed? I knew Shimano would find a way to complicate things!
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Shimano 105 going electronic
« Reply #42 on: 17 September, 2021, 09:49:27 pm »
I have a question, which has probably been answered but perhaps not in this thread. Are different varieties of Di2 compatible? Can you use eg DA shifters with a 105 mech, if they're both 12-speed? And what is it that decides whether it's 12-speed, 11-speed or whatever: is it the shifters or the mechs, or both? Could you for instance pair a supposedly 11-speed older Di2 shifter with a new 12-speed mech and it would work? What about the other way round?

For values of.

I don't know how it works with mixing 12 speed and 11 speed. But within 11 speed you can mix and match. As long as both derailleur match. So you can use two xtr mechs with ultegra shifters. Or visa versa. Or as i do, XT mechs with Dura ace shifters.

J
So you can't have eg XT at the front and DA at the back even if all 12 speed? I knew Shimano would find a way to complicate things!

Nope... This is Shimano afterall. Why be compatible with yourself?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Моя планета голубая, я люблю тебя и обнимаю
Re: Shimano 105 going electronic
« Reply #43 on: 17 September, 2021, 10:08:58 pm »
AIUI an advantage of Sram stuff is that it is compatible with itself (for same number of speeds). No mountain/road artificial division. Though I won't be surprised to here this is no longer the case either.
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

Re: Shimano 105 going electronic
« Reply #44 on: 17 September, 2021, 10:33:49 pm »
I have a question, which has probably been answered but perhaps not in this thread. Are different varieties of Di2 compatible? Can you use eg DA shifters with a 105 mech, if they're both 12-speed? And what is it that decides whether it's 12-speed, 11-speed or whatever: is it the shifters or the mechs, or both? Could you for instance pair a supposedly 11-speed older Di2 shifter with a new 12-speed mech and it would work? What about the other way round?

From my limited reading so far it seems that it is not possible to mix and match 11 and 12 speed DI2 systems. Whether this is software or hardware is not clear, but it’s ‘interesting’ that the rim brake 12 speed kit will be wired only whereas the disc brake kit will use wireless shifters.

The availability of rim brake kits to the aftermarket remains to be seen. It’s not going to the ISA iirc and may be focused on a fossil fuel sponsored race team. However, the wire only does make me wonder if it’s an application for the current levers with the new mechs and battery?

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Shimano 105 going electronic
« Reply #45 on: 17 September, 2021, 10:36:15 pm »
AIUI an advantage of Sram stuff is that it is compatible with itself (for same number of speeds). No mountain/road artificial division. Though I won't be surprised to here this is no longer the case either.

I don't like the wireless nature of the SRAM stuff. If wireless stops working debugging is essentially witchcraft. Where as with wired you can start with simple stuff "is it all plugged in?" And go from there.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Shimano 105 going electronic
« Reply #46 on: 18 September, 2021, 09:33:50 am »
There must be some cross compatibility 11vs 12 speed because they won't be making new TT shifters - they will plug into the 12 speed kit like they used to with the 11.
They are changing the cables, but I think there must be some sort of converter cable for this purpose.

Re: Shimano 105 going electronic
« Reply #47 on: 18 September, 2021, 12:12:46 pm »
You can physically connect any of the old shifters via a cable size adapter but only the TT ones are supported on 12 speed systems according to the compatibility chart.

I would expect any other non 12 speed parts to not work, which is a bit shit.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Моя планета голубая, я люблю тебя и обнимаю
Re: Shimano 105 going electronic
« Reply #48 on: 18 September, 2021, 01:48:58 pm »
I have a question, which has probably been answered but perhaps not in this thread. Are different varieties of Di2 compatible? Can you use eg DA shifters with a 105 mech, if they're both 12-speed? And what is it that decides whether it's 12-speed, 11-speed or whatever: is it the shifters or the mechs, or both? Could you for instance pair a supposedly 11-speed older Di2 shifter with a new 12-speed mech and it would work? What about the other way round?

From my limited reading so far it seems that it is not possible to mix and match 11 and 12 speed DI2 systems. Whether this is software or hardware is not clear, but it’s ‘interesting’ that the rim brake 12 speed kit will be wired only whereas the disc brake kit will use wireless shifters.

The availability of rim brake kits to the aftermarket remains to be seen. It’s not going to the ISA iirc and may be focused on a fossil fuel sponsored race team. However, the wire only does make me wonder if it’s an application for the current levers with the new mechs and battery?
ISA?

Perhaps they're using the old wired shifters on the new 105 kit.
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Моя планета голубая, я люблю тебя и обнимаю
Re: Shimano 105 going electronic
« Reply #49 on: 18 September, 2021, 01:49:34 pm »
AIUI an advantage of Sram stuff is that it is compatible with itself (for same number of speeds). No mountain/road artificial division. Though I won't be surprised to here this is no longer the case either.

I don't like the wireless nature of the SRAM stuff. If wireless stops working debugging is essentially witchcraft. Where as with wired you can start with simple stuff "is it all plugged in?" And go from there.

J
Seems like wireless is the way it's all going though.
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.