Surrey to introduce lower speed limits on rural roads

[Kim]

https://roadsafetygb.org.uk/news/surrey-to-introduce-20mph-speed-limits-on-rural-roads/

Seems like a good idea...  *watches with interest*

[Diver300]

While it may look like a good idea, for a speed limit to improve safety, they have to make drivers slow down on the dangerous bits. Drivers will only slow down if the speed limits are enforced and if the limits are lower than the speeds that the vehicles are already being driven at.

On many of the very narrow roads the safe speed depends on the visibility, so can be very low on tight corners, and can vary a lot. There could be a speed limit that is so low that all the bends can be taken at that speed, but it would be ignored by nearly everyone, just like double white lines are when overtaking cyclists. There could be speed limits that slow the conscientious drivers down on the faster bits, but to little advantage. There could be speed limits set for every bend, which would just add difficulty to driving legally, as well as being unenforceable.

I drive some roads well above the posted speed limit to avoid shouting matches with passengers and to avoid being overtaken by just about everyone. Here is an example:- https://goo.gl/maps/GmZFB7Bb9P5VWPWz9 The image is old and the 5 mph limits are not shown. Here is another example:- https://goo.gl/maps/nc1EXsoPJ2roVjz99

The scheme sounds a lot like "Something Must Be Done", the 5 mph speed limits, or "Cyclists Dismount" signs.

[rogerzilla]

I drive some roads well above the posted speed limit to avoid shouting matches with passengers and to avoid being overtaken by just about everyone.

I tell them they can walk if they think it would be faster 

[Cudzoziemiec]

Some kind of blanket speed limit on country lanes was an idea whose time was coming, given the increasing number of 30 and 40mph limits or rural roads, but I'm surprised to see it as low as 20mph.

I disagree with the idea that speed limits have to be enforced to be effective. Experience of the 20mph areas in central Bristol shows this is not the case, and just as importantly, the lower limit doesn't have to be obeyed in order to bring benefits. People still drive more slowly. That they break the 20mph limit is not that a sign of failure; after they all, they broke the previous 30mph limit, they break the 70mph limit on motorways and so on. Also, safety (in its narrow definition of "avoiding collisions") is not the only – probably not even the main – benefit of lower speeds.

[De Sisti]

I drive some roads well above the posted speed limit to avoid shouting matches with passengers and to avoid being overtaken by just about everyone.

Such passengers would be strongly encouraged to get out and walk. Nothing wrong with being overtaken though.

[rafletcher]

I drive some roads well above the posted speed limit to avoid shouting matches with passengers and to avoid being overtaken by just about everyone. Here is an example:- https://goo.gl/maps/GmZFB7Bb9P5VWPWz9 The image is old and the 5 mph limits are not shown. Here is another example:- https://goo.gl/maps/nc1EXsoPJ2roVjz99

Neither of those examples are typical rural roads - one is a retail park car park where precisely no-one drives at the posted 5mph lmit.

I can see and understand the logic of posting lower limits at danger points, but not of a blanket limit on long stretches of raod. And 40mph would be better (as in more likley to be adhered to) as it seems to be a default speed of many drivers, regardless of the posted limit. 20mph will only ever work with enforcement - as I can testify from Tring, where they've posted the whole town centre at 20. Maybe 1 in 20 cars adheres to it (not including me the majority of the time I'm there). There is no enforcement.

[Jaded]

The usual effect of a 20mph is to bring the average vehicle speed down by a few mph.

To have that happen without needing real police to be not out catching real criminals seem to me to be a result.

The only speed limits I see universally adhered to are where there is permanent enforcement such as by average speed cameras. I see no clamouring from normal people for the removal of all the other speed limits across the country because they are not enforced.

The war on the entitled motorist will not be won by insisting that all measures taken in it are 100% effective.

[Kim]

I think we're all fixating on the 20mph bit.  I expect that the majority of roads will get a 30mph limit, and if that means people drive at 35 rather than 45, it's an improvement.

[Jaded]

I think we're all fixating on the 20mph bit.  I expect that the majority of roads will get a 30mph limit, and if that means people drive at 35 rather than 45, it's an improvement.

Yup

[Cudzoziemiec]

Or even if they drive at 45 rather than 55. And if they also decide to take the main road rather than the laney shortcut, because the shortcut is no longer quicker, double win.

[Kim]

And if they also decide to take the main road rather than the laney shortcut, because the shortcut is no longer quicker, double win.

Excellent point.  Also, if navigation software uses the speed limit as part of the road weighting, then it will tend to prefer other routes.

[matthew]

And if they also decide to take the main road rather than the laney shortcut, because the shortcut is no longer quicker, double win.

Excellent point.  Also, if navigation software uses the speed limit as part of the road weighting, then it will tend to prefer other routes.

Only once the navigation is updated to include the new limits, I should imagine that is a slow and piecemeal iterative process rather than some nice centralised register / GIS tool.

[Jaded]

I think there are at least two steps

1) 'National' database updated
2) users databases updated

I don't know how long the first bit takes - will be interesting to see how long it is before our town's 20mph is added to the database after it goes live (after 9 years of working on it and campaigning and so on)

2) depends on what the users databases are. If a provided map like Apple Maps, quite quick, if a proprietary one built into a car, then probably never, unless it is clear and easy and cheap to update.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I don't know how long the first bit takes - will be interesting to see how long it is before our town's 20mph is added to the database after it goes live (after 9 years of working on it and campaigning and so on)

This would seem to be the lengthy bit! It will be interesting to see if this Surrey decision – and I believe there was something similar in the Scottish borders and more recently in Wales – bring this time down.

[Kim]

And if they also decide to take the main road rather than the laney shortcut, because the shortcut is no longer quicker, double win.

Excellent point.  Also, if navigation software uses the speed limit as part of the road weighting, then it will tend to prefer other routes.

Only once the navigation is updated to include the new limits, I should imagine that is a slow and piecemeal iterative process rather than some nice centralised register / GIS tool.

Indeed, but it'll be a lot faster than if they don't change the limits.

[Jaded]

I don't know how long the first bit takes - will be interesting to see how long it is before our town's 20mph is added to the database after it goes live (after 9 years of working on it and campaigning and so on)

This would seem to be the lengthy bit! It will be interesting to see if this Surrey decision – and I believe there was something similar in the Scottish borders and more recently in Wales – bring this time down.

Our lengthy bit has been interesting. Suffice to say that we are the only location in our county that is going to have a new 20mph limit, all the others have been shelved on the back of a new “Road Safety Strategy” that prioritises cycling and walking cars.

[Diver300]

And if they also decide to take the main road rather than the laney shortcut, because the shortcut is no longer quicker, double win.

Excellent point.  Also, if navigation software uses the speed limit as part of the road weighting, then it will tend to prefer other routes.

Only once the navigation is updated to include the new limits, I should imagine that is a slow and piecemeal iterative process rather than some nice centralised register / GIS tool.

My experience of sat navs is that speed limits take 5 - 10 years to be updated.

Obviouslyly mobile speed camera locations appear within minutes on the sat nav.

[Peat]

The thought of '20' repeater signs along every lane in the land makes me want to vomit.

The only people this serves are signage manufacturers/fitters?

[T42]

Tories make me glad I live in France.

[Cudzoziemiec]

The thought of '20' repeater signs along every lane in the land makes me want to vomit.

The only people this serves are signage manufacturers/fitters?

I expect lots of them will be painted on the tarmac, as is already done in some places. In fact AIUI repeater signs are not legally required, but it's become the expectation and their absence could be used by Mr Loophole types. It's also an advantage of the Welsh approach, where – in an urban context – they're introducing legislation to alter the built-up area from 30 to 20 (so you'll probably get 30 repeater signs on main roads in towns instead, but nothing on residential streets).

[giropaul]

An unforeseen impact of 20mph limits has been the Police blocking the running of road races , even when there’s only a few hundred metres of affected roads on the parcourse.

[DuncanM]

On a similar level, even a blanket 20 through villages rule would end all the TT courses (except the pure DC ones) I'm aware of near here.

[rogerzilla]

But speed limits don't apply to bikes.  Road races have the problem of motorised escort vehicles, of course.

A bigger problem for TTs could be traffic calming associated with 20mph limits.  I despise traffic calming as a cyclist - chicanes, islands and speed cushions all bring you into conflict with (already frustrated) motons

[DuncanM]

Legally you could smash through at 30 while the cars can only do 20, but in practise, I don't think the clubs could be seen to encourage that.
If it means more sensible driving and fewer casualties, that's a small price to pay.

[DaveReading]

A bigger problem for TTs could be traffic calming associated with 20mph limits.

I suspect that may not be an unintended consequence.