Author Topic: Grammar that makes you cringe  (Read 834909 times)

ravenbait

  • Someone's imaginary friend
  • Pudge controls the weather.
    • Someone's imaginary friend
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6050 on: 17 April, 2021, 11:42:12 am »
Tautology is a pleonasm, therefore a question (not necessarily a failure) of style, not grammar. From a purely linguistic point of view, there might be circumstances in which this construction is arguably warranted, in that there may be additives that are necessary, and the "added" may refer to additives that a different manufacturer might have included. For instance, there may be be flavouring (pepper is an additive) but not preservatives. If they're just raw chicken wings then I would agree it is an unnecessary tautology.

The asterisk precedes the colon, as it is indicating additional information that can be read immediately following "wings", just as you would put the asterisk before the full stop if the sentence ended there.

Sam
https://ravenbait.com
"Created something? Hah! But that would be irresponsible! And unethical! I would never, ever make... more than one."

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6051 on: 17 April, 2021, 12:47:38 pm »
Tautology is a pleonasm, therefore a question (not necessarily a failure) of style, not grammar.

I don’t think I’ve come across that term before. Useful.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

ian

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6052 on: 17 April, 2021, 08:21:41 pm »
On the subject of pleonasm, I read a very good book about rhetoric many years ago (about the same time as my dabble with Louis de Bernières during the Age of Living with BBC Continuity Announcers) which, of course, I can't now remember the title of.

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
  • Custard Wallah
    • Mr Larrington's Automatic Diary
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6053 on: 17 April, 2021, 08:26:34 pm »
According to the Mega-Global Big River Corporation of Seattle, USAnia it was probably this:

Quote

Best Sellers in Rhetoric. #1. The Ultimate Dad Joke Book

External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

ian

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6054 on: 17 April, 2021, 09:38:14 pm »
Hmm, I'm pretty sure it wasn't that, but google tells me it was The Elements of Eloquence by Mark Forsyth

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
  • Custard Wallah
    • Mr Larrington's Automatic Diary
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6055 on: 18 April, 2021, 01:34:14 am »
Hmm, I'm pretty sure it wasn't that, but google tells me it was The Elements of Eloquence by Mark Forsyth

Unlikely to be the Mark Forsyth wot I knew.  Aka The Hairless Scotsman, my former The Boss and the Millwall of the BigCo's management.
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

T42

  • Apprentice geezer
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6056 on: 18 April, 2021, 09:56:22 am »
Tautology is a pleonasm, therefore a question (not necessarily a failure) of style, not grammar.

I don’t think I’ve come across that term before. Useful.

IIRC it was one of Captain Haddock's better insults. Bashibazouk! Pléonasme!

Re grammar vs style, we don't have a thread for stylistic sins so this one's next best.
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

ravenbait

  • Someone's imaginary friend
  • Pudge controls the weather.
    • Someone's imaginary friend
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6057 on: 18 April, 2021, 04:26:58 pm »
Hmm, I'm pretty sure it wasn't that, but google tells me it was The Elements of Eloquence by Mark Forsyth
I have the box set of The Elements of Eloquence, The Etymologicon, and The Horologicon on one of my bookshelves, nestled comfortably between The Penguin Dictionary of Language and Attack of the Copula Spiders.

Sam
https://ravenbait.com
"Created something? Hah! But that would be irresponsible! And unethical! I would never, ever make... more than one."

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6058 on: 18 April, 2021, 05:16:11 pm »
Oh, that Mark Forsyth... I read the Etymologicon. Found it very irritating... <checks notes> main complaint was that it read like it was all cribbed off wikipedia, with no primary research (which the author confesses to). Interesting but superficial. I have the Horologicon on my Kindle but have never got round to reading it.

For matters of rhetoric, I've always found the Silva Rhetoricae website a good source:
http://rhetoric.byu.edu

On pleonasm, I have a vague recollection of reading the phrase "pleonastic orgy" but a quick google doesn't turn up a source for that.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

ravenbait

  • Someone's imaginary friend
  • Pudge controls the weather.
    • Someone's imaginary friend
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6059 on: 18 April, 2021, 05:22:53 pm »
Michael Barrier on Donald Phelps?

http://www.michaelbarrier.com/Commentary/Warshow_and_Phelps/Warshow_and_Phelps.htm

Phelps has, indeed, done the work, but he is, alas, an undisciplined writer whose perceptions are buried in dense verbal undergrowth. If one word will not quite serve, he piles on others, in a pleonastic orgy—hoping, I suppose, that the right word will eventually turn up, or perhaps that the sheer bulk of a dozen not-quite-right words will fill the void left by the absence of the right one.

I quite like the Forsyth books for a brief skip through to find a technical term for something I wish to read about elsewhere, but for which I can't remember the name.

Sam
https://ravenbait.com
"Created something? Hah! But that would be irresponsible! And unethical! I would never, ever make... more than one."

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6060 on: 18 April, 2021, 05:59:15 pm »
I think it might be one of those phrases that someone used once and several other people liked the way it sounded... no idea who was the originator.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
  • Custard Wallah
    • Mr Larrington's Automatic Diary
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6061 on: 18 April, 2021, 06:24:52 pm »
Is it just me who thinks “pleonasm” ought to be an ailment afflicting the lungs then ???
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6062 on: 18 April, 2021, 07:50:00 pm »
Neoplasm = new growth ~= cancer innit?

Pleonasm = overuse of more words than is necessary.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6063 on: 18 April, 2021, 08:36:28 pm »
Pleonasm = overuse of more words than is necessary.
I see what you did there.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Pingu

  • Put away those fiery biscuits!
  • Mrs Pingu's domestique
    • the Igloo
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6064 on: 18 April, 2021, 10:49:36 pm »
Pleonasm = overuse of more words than is necessary.
I see what you did there.

Me too also as well.

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
  • Custard Wallah
    • Mr Larrington's Automatic Diary
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6065 on: 19 April, 2021, 01:18:42 am »
Pleonasm = overuse of more words than is necessary.
I see what you did there.

Me too also as well.

Helly's after that coveted position at the Department of Redundancy Department (prop. Captain Obvious).
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

ian

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6066 on: 19 April, 2021, 09:40:29 am »
Oh, that Mark Forsyth... I read the Etymologicon. Found it very irritating... <checks notes> main complaint was that it read like it was all cribbed off wikipedia, with no primary research (which the author confesses to). Interesting but superficial. I have the Horologicon on my Kindle but have never got round to reading it.

For matters of rhetoric, I've always found the Silva Rhetoricae website a good source:
http://rhetoric.byu.edu

On pleonasm, I have a vague recollection of reading the phrase "pleonastic orgy" but a quick google doesn't turn up a source for that.

I think I liked it because it wasn't a hefty tome that spent it all its time quoting the classics, here's what Cicero said, basically a quick top-deck tour of the rhetorical landscape with modern examples. We didn't really cover this kind of thing in my comprehensive school. It was interesting how many we pick up through osmosis by reading, but I didn't have names for (or often realise they were rhetorical tricks). Of course, I've forgotten the names now.

ravenbait

  • Someone's imaginary friend
  • Pudge controls the weather.
    • Someone's imaginary friend
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6067 on: 19 April, 2021, 11:30:33 am »
Is it just me who thinks “pleonasm” ought to be an ailment afflicting the lungs then ???
Do we need a Meaning of Liff thread somewhere? Or is there one already?

Sam
https://ravenbait.com
"Created something? Hah! But that would be irresponsible! And unethical! I would never, ever make... more than one."

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
  • Custard Wallah
    • Mr Larrington's Automatic Diary
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6068 on: 19 April, 2021, 12:35:30 pm »
Is it just me who thinks “pleonasm” ought to be an ailment afflicting the lungs then ???
Do we need a Meaning of Liff thread somewhere? Or is there one already?

Sam

Picture my disappointment on learning that a “shibboleth” is not in fact a huge hairy shambling monster from the fevered imaginings of LP Hovercraft.

[“Who he?” – Ed.]
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

ian

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6069 on: 19 April, 2021, 01:17:35 pm »
Wait till you find out it's a federated authorization and authentication middleware system based on SAML.

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
  • Custard Wallah
    • Mr Larrington's Automatic Diary
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6070 on: 19 April, 2021, 01:39:14 pm »
Trample all over my dreams, why don’t you :'(
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

Basil

  • Um....err......oh bugger!
  • Help me!
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6071 on: 20 April, 2021, 10:12:38 pm »
"Derek Chauvin the former white police officer."

Heard several times last week.  Heard again tonight by the BBC.
Admission.  I'm actually not that fussed about cake.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6072 on: 20 April, 2021, 10:37:29 pm »
Yes, Basil, that's a cracker, isn't it?  Actually, with today's verdict, he might feel safer if he was actually a "former white".  So much so, that I wonder if he'll actually get a custodial sentence.  I'm not exactly surprised at the verdict but how on earth you can lean on somebody's neck for nine minutes, watching him fading away and not at some point release the pressure without it becoming "intentional" murder, I don't know.  Is there a special case in US Law for "unintentional murder" - or is it something that has been invented for this particular case when it seemed that there was no way he could be found not guilty without the country going up in flames?  I admit I don't know the law in this case.  It just seems odd.

Edit:  Has Chauvin appeared in the "nominative determinism" thread?

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
  • Custard Wallah
    • Mr Larrington's Automatic Diary
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6073 on: 21 April, 2021, 12:01:54 am »
Oooh yes, “the former $NATIONALITY $PROFESSION” really gets on my pecs, at least when used to describe people who ate'nt dead.  Wikinaccurate is full of examples, but there’s a curse that says if you change it the subject of the article will die PDQ.  At least, it did with Niki Lauda.
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6074 on: 21 April, 2021, 12:25:43 am »
Hmm, I'm pretty sure it wasn't that, but google tells me it was The Elements of Eloquence by Mark Forsyth
I have the box set of The Elements of Eloquence, The Etymologicon, and The Horologicon on one of my bookshelves, nestled comfortably between The Penguin Dictionary of Language and Attack of the Copula Spiders.

Sam
£782.99 on Amazon - used hardback.   :o

Paperback set £16.99.
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897