Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Freewheeling => The Dark Side => Topic started by: McWheels on 20 April, 2017, 09:36:36 pm
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I've missed this, it's already fully signed up inside 2 days. However the question is why? Is this just a North American thing or is there potential over here too?
Is it because we just don't have a FWD moving pedals manufacturer over here?
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/830238324/cruzbike-t50-pain-free-cycling-freedom-on-the-open?ref=tag (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/830238324/cruzbike-t50-pain-free-cycling-freedom-on-the-open?ref=tag)
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I can't see why a long established company like Cruzbike should be on Kickstarter. I must be missing something as well.
No shortage of this type of fwd bent in France although they tend to be built lower and usually homebuilds. Some very inventive guys and gals out there. French and american designs tend to disagree on fork angles and trail. The Yanks tend to favour fork angles simiar to a solo; French seem to prefer something in the 50-60° range. A look in the autoconstruction section of the velorizontal forum will give an idea
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I can't see why a long established company like Cruzbike should be on Kickstarter. I must be missing something as well.
Seems to be getting quite common for big companies, eg Knog or Wahoo. It is cheap publicity, gets some hype. And plenty of preorders, even though it may not be delivered for months (most Kickstarter projects end up delayed).
Maybe more useful, they can get feedback from potential customers, so they could tweak the design if required.
Cruzbike have a few models of front wheel drive recumbents already. Seems the main difference with this one is its much cheaper.
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i like the idea, although on this particular model the weight seems to shifted to the front - i wonder how quickly you can decelerate (compared to normal bike) without going over the bars. reducing weight to ~10kg would be welcome.
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You can decelerate very quickly on a recumbent without going over the bars. COG is much lower vs an upwrong where most of the mass is above the saddle and possibly even over the front wheel under hard braking
It's very easy to lock up the rear as you come into a halt and sit up, effectively unloading the rear tyre. I've not managed to lock up the front yet
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I'll add that most SWB bents are front-heavy to begin with...
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I've missed this, it's already fully signed up inside 2 days. However the question is why? Is this just a North American thing or is there potential over here too?
Is it because we just don't have a FWD moving pedals manufacturer over here?
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/830238324/cruzbike-t50-pain-free-cycling-freedom-on-the-open?ref=tag (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/830238324/cruzbike-t50-pain-free-cycling-freedom-on-the-open?ref=tag)
If you mean that you have missed out getting a T50 then no, there are still some available.
As for why, well if you've ridden one then you'd understand. ;D
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This has been done some time ago by Mike Burrows, hasn't it?
Or is this one in some way different?
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i like the idea, although on this particular model the weight seems to shifted to the front - i wonder how quickly you can decelerate (compared to normal bike) without going over the bars. reducing weight to ~10kg would be welcome.
IME I'd say slightly quicker, although you don't have to worry about going over the bars like you would on a DF. As for the weight, the higher end model with decent spec would be around the 23lb mark I think. If you willing to spend cash then you'd get the weight down to around 21lbs - ish.
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This has been done some time ago by Mike Burrows, hasn't it?
Or is this one in some way different?
Yes and yes, the BB moves.
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This has been done some time ago by Mike Burrows, hasn't it?
The safety bicycle was done some time ago by Henry Lawson, wasn't it?
Moving BB FWD isn't a new idea - it's a popular shed-fettle approach - but there's always scope for someone to do a decent bike with one.
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I'm not taken on them. I can't see the advantage, over a longer chain?
I liked my ICE B2 but it was heavy and climbing was a pitl. I don't know how a front wheel bike handles our tight gates local councils like to put in the way of cut throughs and paths to stop motorbikes.
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Cruzbike sell theirs on several points, one of which is lack of long chain drag and the ability to use standard components, the other is the MBB allowing you to use push/pull from the upper body as well, supposedly improving climbing performance.
When you look at weight, they probably have and advantage as well - I remember the ICE B2 as heavy, also undergeared in my version, but my M5 is no lightweight either coming in at around 14.5kg naked. I could have lightened it with wheels, components, rim brakes etc but probably not by a lot.
The climbing advantage I buy, but not the "stock components" argument - everything I used was off the shelf, except chains which are just off the shelf x 3
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With FWD you immediately save a couple of chains of weight. Movable BB saves the idlers (and the drag thereof), too.
Beyond that I'm less convinced. I've not ridden a movable BB machine, but it avoids the steering complications of regular FWD. Looks weird, but since when has that been a problem?
The low BB of the bike in OP would seem to make a large front wheel practical for riders of less than Dutch proportions, but on the other hand that wrecks the aerodynamics, so it's hardly a performance machine. It comes across as a large-wheeled alternative to CWLB - a comfortable general-purpose bike.
(My experience of climbing on recumbents is that you need to spin a high cadence to keep your wobble frequency high enough that you don't lose balance. That would seem to contraindicate doing anything useful with the upper body. But maybe this geometry is upright enough that you can use bodyweight for balance...?)
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I watched the vid.
The reason for the kickstarter is to fund a mass production run and get production costs down. That really makes sense.
Also, having watched the vid, the bike design is growing on me. The wheelbase is sized to fit standard bike racks (on cars, trains, when locking up) even on turbo trainers. They show someone riding in pretty tight circles (for a downwrong).
It doesn't look very aero to me - I think someone riding an upright on hoods with forearms low will be at least as good if not better. However this is a bike being sold on comfort, not speed.
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If you look at their other models, the Silvio and Vendetta - they are the real speed machines
The T50 and Q100 are much more relaxed, about town runarounds. You need to put the T50 up against my runabout rigid MTB with rack and panniers
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I'd put it up against something like the HPVelotechnik Sprit, at which point the wheel size and uncomplicated drivetrain become real bonuses. You lose the easy step-through mount and probably a little manoeuvrability, and gain a large helping of 'normal'. The shouty people aren't going to ask you how you steer on one of these.
In that context Kickstarter makes more sense: You can't sell a bike like that to recumbent bike enthusiasts, because most of them will find the performance underwhelming. The market are mostly people who don't know about recumbents, but would like to avoid wedgie discomfort for whatever reason. If you look at the really successful 'bents, they're either sturdy tourers which become unwieldy once you stop riding them (I'd put nearly all trikes in this category) or high performance racers that are awkward in start-stop traffic and sworn enemy of the Silly Sustrans Gate. Something comfortable, easy to ride, weird-but-not-too-weird and not too awkward to park/transport could do well, if someone works out how to market it.
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I'd be up for one as a runaround, could even be easily trainable - doesn't look that long vs a "standard" bike
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I'd be up for one as a runaround, could even be easily trainable - doesn't look that long vs a "standard" bike
Yes, definite advantage for tall people there, as the leg length adjustment doesn't really add much length to the bike.
The real train advantage comes from everything forward of the steering axis being able to pivot - my Streetmachine is only about 10cm longer than my DF hybrid (which doesn't have a large frame), but being rigid from chainset to rear mudguard means that getting it on and off trains can be tricky, and it doesn't really fit in cars. That could be a major benefit (albeit a boring one) of the movable BB design.
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Moving BB designs can feel quite weird to an experienced cyclist. Pedal steer can be significant sometimes.
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If you look at the really successful 'bents, they're either sturdy tourers which become unwieldy once you stop riding them (I'd put nearly all trikes in this category) or high performance racers that are awkward in start-stop traffic and sworn enemy of the Silly Sustrans Gate.
Objection: The only two- or three-wheeled vehicles that are not sworn enemy of the SSG are small motorbikes.
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If you look at the really successful 'bents, they're either sturdy tourers which become unwieldy once you stop riding them (I'd put nearly all trikes in this category) or high performance racers that are awkward in start-stop traffic and sworn enemy of the Silly Sustrans Gate.
Objection: The only two- or three-wheeled vehicles that are not sworn enemy of the SSG are small motorbikes.
I'm still harbouring dreams of a Robot Wars style battle-bot with an assortment of acetylene torches and angle grinders...
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Quite a few parishioners habitually carry so much in their panniers they wouldn't notice the weight of an angle grinder...
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I should confess, I've been piloting a V2k (aka Sofrider) for 1500 miles now and I totally get this new bike, it's far more elegant than the Q or the things that look like conversions in the past. It's a commuter, carthorse, utility machine; although I've got my seat laid back to 32deg and into the wind I'm as good as most roadies.
MBB steering angle seems to be everything. It's pretty twitchy until you learn it, but then it just happens, I can do short straights with no hands now. Climbing is a moot point with me, but I think it's mostly down to the weight. As for SSGs, I reckon this won't be held up at all, the short wheel base and moderate seat angle will make it as easy as anything DF, especially as your feet can't get in the way of the wheel.
I would have liked it even more if they had given space for 700c wheels though...
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The only MBB bike I've ever tried was an example of the original Flevobike, which is widely held to require three weeks in an empty car park to learn to ride. I managed an average of three pedal strokes before falling off, though Miss von Brandenburg once saw a bloke try one and get it immediately; he swore he'd never even seen any kind of recumbent before.
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The fleck is a very different beast as you don't use the handlebars for steering like you do on the cruzbike. I could see that the cruzbike would have efficiency advantages and weight advantages over a standard laidback, plus you could use dynamic tension to push on the pedals using upper body/core beyond what you would on a traditional 'bent. That said, not sure I would stump up a couple grand to find out if it works for me.
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Moving BB designs can feel quite weird to an experienced cyclist. Pedal steer can be significant sometimes.
That's the big difference I found - to the point where I could barely get thing moving. It wasn't long before 'no way on the open road' and 'death trap' starting ringing between my ears. Mind you, that was on a MBB homebuild...so hardly the best example with which to try things out. If rake, trail, head tube angles and steering geometry in general on a conventional dark side bike gets you wondering about how it all fits together, then how it all works on a MBB will send you bonkers.
Credit where credit's due though, these things are not just for car parks - I've seen several MBB's on all three PBP's I've done. I especially remember an interesting homebuild by a Belgium guy in 2007. He seemed to get round perfectly ok. As did LMT OTP in 2015 on his Vendetta. Fair play to 'em. Dual 700 wheels and a shorter chain? Got to be worth a go.
The homebuilders in France seem to like them quite a lot too.
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again: "Just because someone's ridden PBP on one doesn't mean it's a good idea." :D
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again: "Just because someone's ridden PBP on one doesn't mean it's a good idea." :D
Any riding done on any form of recumbent is always a good idea. :)
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Moving BB designs can feel quite weird to an experienced cyclist. Pedal steer can be significant sometimes.
That's the big difference I found - to the point where I could barely get thing moving. It wasn't long before 'no way on the open road' and 'death trap' starting ringing between my ears. Mind you, that was on a MBB homebuild...so hardly the best example with which to try things out. If rake, trail, head tube angles and steering geometry in general on a conventional dark side bike gets you wondering about how it all fits together, then how it all works on a MBB will send you bonkers.
Credit where credit's due though, these things are not just for car parks - I've seen several MBB's on all three PBP's I've done. I especially remember an interesting homebuild by a Belgium guy in 2007. He seemed to get round perfectly ok. As did LMT OTP in 2015 on his Vendetta. Fair play to 'em. Dual 700 wheels and a shorter chain? Got to be worth a go.
The homebuilders in France seem to like them quite a lot too.
Indeed I did, they're good bikes, although you do have to forget about past experiences on recumbents because they do not ride like other bikes. Having put countless miles on an Optima Baron and Metaphysic I thought I'd handle the V without any issues but this was not the case. Although if you stick to a tried and tested method you can (like me) be riding the bike on the road within a couple of days. In a nutshell: Do some repeat coastings down a slight decline with you sitting up and your feet just above the floor, when getting the hang of this, repeat sitting back with your feet on the pedals. And then in an empty car park practise moving off and finally doing figure of eight drills. Although anecdotal mine is the best recumbent I've ridden, you put the power down and the response is there unlike other recumbents which feel spongey when pedalling hard.
The Parkers have taken some stick with their (what one might say) over zealous selling of the brand over on BROL but give credit where credits due they have broken records and won races. Jason Perez won overall the Californian triple Crown last year, beat Marko Baloh in a double century race recently and they have entered RAAM with a four person team this year. They even took time to test in a wind tunnel not long ago, some interesting results and goes to show how fast recumbents really are when compared to DF bikes.
http://cruzbike.com/blog/2016/09/16/race-report-jason-perezs-2016-california-triple-crown-victory/
http://cruzbike.com/blog/2017/03/31/race-report-jason-perezs-solvang-spring-double-century/
http://cruzbike.com/blog/2017/02/06/cruzbike-at-the-a2-wind-tunnel/
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Interesting read. He sure can maintain a high power average, at least in my eyes.
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The thing to remember with MBB (and other fwd designs but MBB appears to have a worse reputation) is that weight distribution is critical if you want to get up moderate inclines or stop in the rain. Wheelspin can be a problem.
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Those fast cruzbikes are lovely. If I wasn't so unfit and suchlike I would splash out on one and start audaxing again.
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again: "Just because someone's ridden PBP on one doesn't mean it's a good idea." :D
Doesn't mean it's a bad idea either.
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Interesting read. He sure can maintain a high power average, at least in my eyes.
Yes - he is obviously in top shape. Plus he has really worked out how to use the recumbent advantage to maximum effect. Blasting the flats and downs, splitting the bunch, emptying the legs of the competition. He also seems to be able to uphill faster than many uprights, which is unusual.
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I hear they are a revelation to ride because the drive is always in the same direction as the steering.