Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Audax => Topic started by: triker131 on 05 August, 2017, 05:43:20 pm
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Thinking of setting up a poll to sample DNF reasons. Originally had the following categories but can only have 5 options for a poll.
Achilles; knees; saddle sores; back; shoulders; Schermer's neck; wrist/hand; other physiological problems.
Cleats; shoes; clothing problems; wheels; chain; gears; frames; seat&posts; lights; other mechanicals.
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Just spotted the new poll and add poll buttons - Doh.
And on checking it there is a maximum of 5 options, here goes anyway.
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Weather is the major factor. Temperatures and rain are both big DNF drivers.
Many folk limit their riding speed on narrow corners with poor sightlines and on crap surfaces. LEL had plenty of those, particularly in the North. That makes it difficult to regain lost time.
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Just spotted the new poll button - Doh.
And on checking it there is a maximum of 5 options - not really enough to cover all the options.
I believe you can add options; I think I did with one of my 'food' polls.
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I was simply out of time. Nowt wrong with me or the bike, just didn't fancy continuing to controls that would be firmly closed. I can imagine this is a common reason.
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I'd say physically unprepared is one of the main reasons as well as not having the mental experience of previous tough situations to call on.
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Thanks for the replies, I think it is now set up OK.
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Thanks for the replies, I think it is now set up OK.
You don't think anyone dropped out because they weren't fit enough ?
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Maybe you should stratify/classify categories as in body, mind, bike, weather, other...
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This was my first ever audax event. I've done a few 300km rides before but never done any multi day events. I put an enormous amount of training into the event and dropped 8kg.
I completed the ride in approx 110 hours (stopping for around 7 hours each night - from 12am to 7am). I was riding solo (no drafting) most of the way after my riding partner was forced to pull out due to injury at Barnard Castle (heading north). I was on my own throughout days 3 and 4 against the headwinds.
I have absolutely nothing to back this up other than my impressions based on what I observed / heard, but it seemed to me that there were too many people who had simply underestimated the task in hand and who hadn't done enough training.
Of course, many DNFd due to mechanicals, injury and illness, but my guess is that there were a lot of people who were never going to finish because they hadn't trained and hadn't appreciated how tough it is.
You definitely need mental strength, but that will only get you so far. You also need proper planning and very good fitness.
I noticed a lot of riders (especially from abroad) who looked massively underprepared and it seemed obvious just by watching them at the end of day 1 that they stood little chance of finishing.
If there had been qualifying conditions, I almost certainly wouldn't have qualified and I'd have missed out on this incredible experience.
However, I'm inclined to think that there should be a qualification criteria. It's a real shame that serious and experienced audax riders didn't get a place, whereas a significant number of people at the start line were almost certain to DNF from the start.
That's just my view. YMMV.
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I've posted this on Facebook:
"I think this poll is a good idea in principle, but it isn't that simple.
A proper survey would need to be completed and sent out to finishers and non finishers alike which can be analysed to find out more.
For example someone may think they didn't complete because of the weather, but the reality may be lack of experience/ inadequate preparation.
We all had the same weather (pretty much)."
John
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However, I'm inclined to think that there should be a qualification criteria.
Ain't gonna happen. Danial won't wear it. End. Of.
If you want a guarantee to get a place, volunteer. If you're not prepared to put something back into your sport, take up another sport.
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Luckily, Audax isn't a sport.
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However, I'm inclined to think that there should be a qualification criteria.
Ain't gonna happen. Danial won't wear it. End. Of.
If you want a guarantee to get a place, volunteer. If you're not prepared to put something back into your sport, take up another sport.
I understand that entirely.
I'm not suggesting this in order to guarantee myself a place, far from it.
I'm simply observing that there were people who looked as though they had no chance at all of making it round. Unfortunately, their participation meant that others who may well have completed the ride were deprived a place.
So I think there's a case to be made for pre-qualification even though that would have meant that people like me would not have qualified for a place.
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My seatpost snapped. I had 3.5 hours in hand at the time but it was 10:30pm at night and no bike shops were open. As it was the latter stages of the event a less experienced / equipped mechanic had taken over at Thirsk
I've never had a seatpost snapped before. I don't recall it as a reason from anyone else on another ride. Before the ride I changed/fixed/checked almost everything else on my bike
The bike is 6 years old and the post came with the bike
Nothing last forever, it had to fail some time
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^^^^^^ The only way to ensure someone can finish a 1400 is to ride a 1400!
Those folk you refer to that look as though they could not finish have probably ridden PBP and might have ridden LEL last time. I would not be surprised to learn they have ridden a 600 this season. So having to ride a 600 would have made no difference. Most I have ridden this season was 400 and have only completed 1x200, 1x300 and 1x400. Still managed to complete LEL.
You will always have folk capable of completing an event deprived of an entry due to number restrictions. Perhaps we should reward loyalty and service to AUK by setting a minimum of 5yr membership before allowing folk to ride. Or perhaps we should leave such matters as entry requirements to those organising the event and heed the comments of mmmmartin above.
Congratulations on completing and hope you enjoy more audaxes and get to know a few of those folk who may not look like Chris Froome but have the ability to ride a bike for a long time.
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Can't really blame people that packed for depriving people of a place. The deprived person may have also packed. More likely in fact as they didn't want it enough to enter in time. I was deprived of a place but to be fair I probably would have lost my sense of humour and unceremoniously packed.
Snapped seat post:I have night mares about this happening and the sharp bit that's left causing an agonising injury! That didn't happen I hope?! Did it snap clean through, what happened to the saddle, did you fall off?
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Can't really blame people that packed for depriving people of a place. The deprived person may have also packed. More likely in fact as they didn't want it enough to enter in time. I was deprived of a place but to be fair I probably would have lost my sense of humour and unceremoniously packed.
I'm not blaming those who packed. I'm just saying that there were some people who, it was plain to see, were never ever going to get round.
Not many, but some. You could see that some people didn't stand a chance of completing.
Of course, that doesn't mean an experienced randonneur might not also have packed.
But if you've done, say, a 400km and 600km ride, then it shows you have at least a realistic chance of completing.
As I say, if there has been such a condition, I would not have qualified.
So I'm not speaking as an experienced randonneur. Far from it.
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After seeing and hearing some of the stories of the 'underprepared' folk, what they lacked in Audax experience they made up for (in spades) with perseverance and determination. It is those stories that the volunteers and the general public who stumbled on this event will be inspired to tell their friends, not the stories about the suitably fit lads who cruised round comparing their finishing times and average threshold power numbers.
I think one of the main attractions of LEL is the completely open entry system, and one of the best aspects is that the only way to guarantee entry to one edition is to volunteer in the previous edition, thus requiring a genuine level of commitment that also helps keep the event running.
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^^^^^^ The only way to ensure someone can finish a 1400 is to ride a 1400!
Those folk you refer to that look as though they could not finish have probably ridden PBP and might have ridden LEL last time. I would not be surprised to learn they have ridden a 600 this season. So having to ride a 600 would have made no difference. Most I have ridden this season was 400 and have only completed 1x200, 1x300 and 1x400. Still managed to complete LEL.
I'm realistic enough to understand that some people are capable of riding slowly but still able to make it round.
But there were people visibly suffering by the time they reached Pocklington or Thirsk. Those people had clearly underestimated the challenge.
The fact is that the DNF rate was significantly higher than last time round and yet conditions were broadly the same (as far as I'm aware).
I'm just wondering if the reason for that is because, due to its fantastic reputation and popularity, people sign up without realising just how difficult it is.
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I'm not blaming those who packed. I'm just saying that there were some people who, it was plain to see, were never ever going to get round.
Not many, but some. You could see that some people didn't stand a chance of completing.
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You need to be clear about what you mean by 'completing' - is that within 100 hours, within 117 hours, or just getting back to Loughton before everyone has packed up and left? I can think of several people I saw during the ride that would fit in the 'they will never get round' category, but they still arrived at the finish even if they were 24 hours late.
Having spent today reading a lot of comments on here and Facebook, I think it's interesting that there seems to be more of a 'sportive' approach to time limits creeping in, i.e. you shouldn't be allowed to start if others reckon you won't make a time cut. I've always found Audax to be much more open-minded, where you are welcome to turn up and try, and if you miss the time cutoff then it's only a bike ride and the roads are still there to be travelled.
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I selected 'weather' as my DNF reason as it was the root cause, with a supporting role from crap surfaces. Being constantly soaked from Barnard Castle meant by Innerleithan I was very cold, shiverring and had aches in my back and shoulder. The bike was suffering in sympathy so I quit whilst I could get back to relations in Edinburgh relatively easily rather than grind to a halt somewhere on the North York moors. I might have reovered, I might have got round, but for better or worse I made the call.
I'm no novice and had prepared as well for this as for my successful PBP - 100, 150, 2 x 200, 300, 400 etc., Trainer Road plan, additional core and flexibility work, watching the diet, new chain, brake blocks, rear tyre, everything on the bike stripped, cleaned, greased and correctly torqued followed by four shakedown rides, but sometimes knowing when to stop is as important as knowing when to keep going. I don't like quitting, but continuing when this would increase the risk of harm to yourself and/or to others makes no sense. LEL is a great challenge but it isn't a competitive sport, no sponsors or teams to let down, no prizes or money at stake. I don't think I deprived someone of a place and I hope to be back. Chapeau to all who started and congrats to the those who made it to the end.
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Never mind DNF, I DNS'd due to a chronic knee injury , a previously ruptured quad tendon, that flared up during a training ride at the end of May. While I was agonising (literally and figuratively 😀) whether to carry on training, the thought I may be depriving someone of a place did weigh heavily and ultimately I pulled out at the beginning of June. This was the right decision. My number, AA12, did not get reallocated (I'm told) but perhaps another rider got in with a different number.
I then volunteered at Louth and have learned loads, in addition to the ride plan I had formulated prior to withdrawal. Personally, if I do take on this challenge in 2021 I want myself and my bike prep to be the best I can make it - there will always be unforeseen circumstances but I don't want to bomb out for a foreseeable (and so realistically) avoidable reason
Now, to get this knee sorted......... 😉
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Having spent today reading a lot of comments on here and Facebook, I think it's interesting that there seems to be more of a 'sportive' approach to time limits creeping in, i.e. you shouldn't be allowed to start if others reckon you won't make a time cut. I've always found Audax to be much more open-minded, where you are welcome to turn up and try, and if you miss the time cutoff then it's only a bike ride and the roads are still there to be travelled.
I don't know what has been said on Bacefook but historically DNF rates have always been seen as important. It isn't a new thing.
Yes, every rider is taking part in their own event but national organisations have usually done their level best to help riders reach the arrivee in time to collect their well-deserved congratulations and medals. There are many instances at PBP where new randonneuring countries had high DNF rates (e.g. the USA had half their group DNF decades ago, Japan similarly a bit later) and they made deliberate changes to qualifying routes and other aspects to increase finish rates. Subsequent contingents were impressive with their preparation and their resolve to finish, even through the worst conditions.
Audax has been described as an attempt to create the perfect cyclist - any distance, any terrain, any weather, unstoppable!
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I've selected 'other physiological' as my DNF reason mainly due to the inability to eat anything at Pocklington (Northbound) and having had nothing at Louth due to the lack of food available. However I was carrying sweets etc as bonk rations but they didn't help and a few days of reflection have now seen me include dehydration as a reason for this, which is unusual for me given that I've had years of not drinking a lot on rides and have completed PBPx2 and LEL(2009 edition) as well as a number of SRs.
I can also add seatpost issues to this as it slipped down and I ended up stripping the bolt trying to reseat it leaving it about 3-4cms lower than normal. The mobile mechanics couldn't help and I chose to ride on but this unusual position caused contact point issues which can best be described as 'sitting on razor blades'.
This combination of issues and for once a sensible chat with myself at the Pocklington control( ???) saw me make a DNF choice before things became really stupid.
Do I worry about 'depriving' someone else, no, as even the best prepared entrants can have unforeseen issues that force a DNF. Well done to all that did finish and all the best to everyone else with the aches and pains. :thumbsup:
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However, I'm inclined to think that there should be a qualification criteria.
Ain't gonna happen. Danial won't wear it. End. Of.
If you want a guarantee to get a place, volunteer. If you're not prepared to put something back into your sport activity/hobby, take up another sport activity/hobby.
Why do some people think that riding a bike is a sport? ::-)
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Do I worry about 'depriving' someone else, no, as even the best prepared entrants can have unforeseen issues that force a DNF. Well done to all that did finish and all the best to everyone else with the aches and pains. :thumbsup:
Just to be clear, when I referred to "depriving" others of a place, I was *only* referring to certain people who stood no realistic chance of completing from the outset. Of course, there are many people who were just unlucky (illness, mechanicals, injury etc), and those things can happen to anyone. But some people, it seemed to me, were never going to make it because they'd simply underestimated the task in hand.
I'm interested to know why people think the DNF rate jumped to 34% this time, given the conditions were not materially different.
Perhaps one explanation is that the event has become so well known and so popular that people sign up without giving enough thought to whether they can actually complete it?
As I say, if there had been a qualifying condition, I wouldn't have got a place. So I'm not speaking as an experienced audax rider who is trying to prevent newbies from giving it a go.
I thought the event was absolutely ncredible in every respect. It was one of the best things I've ever done. All I'm saying is that it's a shame for someone to take a place if they have no realistic prospect of getting round.
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Snapped seat post:I have night mares about this happening and the sharp bit that's left causing an agonising injury! That didn't happen I hope?! Did it snap clean through, what happened to the saddle, did you fall off?
In my case, I went back to the bike park to get my saddlebag off the bike and when I tried to remove it the whole saddle/post/bag came away in one piece. Don't know why it failed then and not during the immediately previous 60km pace line chain gang
It sheered at the clamp so I assume there was a stress mark there. Don't know if the signs of stress would have been there before I left home for the event or if the problems developed during the event. I have an unusually large saddlebag and Richie speculated that the side to side lateral pendulum movements are probably what did for it. The break was fairly clean and almost square
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I feel sorry for you, vorsprung, especially as you were doing a mechanic service last time (you replaced a broken spoke I hadn't spotted).
Was the dnf rate really 34% (over 300)?
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I feel sorry for you, vorsprung, especially as you were doing a mechanic service last time (you replaced a broken spoke I hadn't spotted).
Was the dnf rate really 34% (over 300)?
That's what Daniel is saying and I believe it
When you consider that many of the riders were either
1) from abroad and not used to UK weather / roads / food
2) inexperienced, not having done a ride this long before
3) both 1&2
The weather wasn't great. If you were unlucky then you'd have got drenched several times, plus there was a brisk headwind on the homeward stretch. Dunno about you but I had stuff like water proof socks and a full on winter coat with me. I had 4 pairs of long finger gloves and 3 pairs of mitts.
As I started at the back (1600 start) I could see many people in trouble from the off. Saw two people DNF (one accident and one terminal mechanical) in the first stage
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All I'm saying is that it's a shame for someone to take a place if they have no realistic prospect of getting round.
I disagree. For 3 reasons
1) Just riding part of the event is both a good way to participate and good experience
2) how can someone judge their "realistic" prospects? If the weather is good, the person is feeling good and they find people to ride with they will make it. If the weather is crap, they are feeling at a low and they are always on their own then they won't make it
3) the bureaucracy of qualifying (or who qualifies etc etc) is an extra burden to both rider and organiser
Also: do you not think that the organisers realise that there is a drop out rate and factor it into their arrangements?
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Weather: I was surprised how unprepared for unpleasant conditions some riders appeared to be and how cold and wet some seemed to get.
Inexperience: Twice I ended up helping riders with flats on the first day, in one case conducting an impromptu class on how to patch a tube.
Food: More than once heard of riders who were adversely affected on Tuesday by insufficient food at Louth the night before.
Personally, DNF Barnard Castle because I just wasn't fit enough. Work got in the way of spring miles, not enough weight-loss, relying too much on previous experience rather then this year's training, etc., etc.
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All I'm saying is that it's a shame for someone to take a place if they have no realistic prospect of getting round.
I disagree. For 3 reasons
1) Just riding part of the event is both a good way to participate and good experience
2) how can someone judge their "realistic" prospects? If the weather is good, the person is feeling good and they find people to ride with they will make it. If the weather is crap, they are feeling at a low and they are always on their own then they won't make it
3) the bureaucracy of qualifying (or who qualifies etc etc) is an extra burden to both rider and organiser
Also: do you not think that the organisers realise that there is a drop out rate and factor it into their arrangements?
My impression is that the organisers did not expect such a high DNF rate. I may be wrong.
There are obviously no guarantees, but if you've done, say, a couple of 600s in the previous 12 months, I'd say that's a fairly good sign that you have at least a realistic prospect of getting round. No guarantees that things won't go wrong, but at least it shows an ability to do very long rides.
I agree with you about the additional admin, but aren't most audax rides accredited by the national audax organisation? Perhaps you'd just have to self-certify that you've done the pre-qualification and leave it to trust / spot-checks?
As to 1, yes - it's a good thing to participate. But there are *lots* of other cycling events (audax and sportives). This is a 1400km ride and it seems a shame to take a place if, realistically, you aren't able to complete it.
Question: would it be better to have 1500 starters and only 15-20% DNFs, as compared to 1500 starters and 34% DNFs?
I'm interested to know why the organisers think the rate was so much higher this year.
Anyway, this is none of my business. It was my first ever audax event and I absolutely loved it. Brilliant organisation in every respect. It was a privilege to take part in it.
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Hopefully many, many of the DNFs will be finishers in 2021 due to lessons learnt this year. LEL is unique enough that you can only really learn what problems you'll have and what mistakes you'll make by actually doing it.
(I agree there were a *lot* of people on the road who weren't experienced or prepared enough, but I suspect as many of them were finishers as DNFs)
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When I DNF'ed I was at the back of the field and many experienced riders were around me. The main issue was the wind and especially the differences in wind between out and back. Outbound we had a reasonable tailwind, for the return, especially on thursday, there was a very strong headwind. Since the effects of wind have to be squared this means that the riders who usually can finish between 105 and 116 hours now had their chances extremely deminished. On a normal LEL, when you arrive at Barnard Castle with time in hand you almost made it. Now it was the opposite, you needed several hours in hand at Barnard Castle to have a realistic chance of completing the ride within the time limit.
During the first night I discussed this with another rider, on the assumption of the wind staying the same, we calculated that you needed at least 5 hours in hand in Edinburgh. The wind picked up though.
An error many riders made during the first night was sticking to their predetermined schedule and not profiting from the wind advantage by pushing on a control further.
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I feel sorry for you, vorsprung, especially as you were doing a mechanic service last time (you replaced a broken spoke I hadn't spotted).
Was the dnf rate really 34% (over 300)?
819 riders from the provo finisher list. That out of 1500, unless there were less starters or those that carried on but were OOT.
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Or perhaps we should leave such matters as entry requirements to those organising the event and heed the comments of mmmmartin above.
Who do you mean? There are a LOT of people involved in organising - do they all get a say? (and should they?)
And how about the hundreds of volunteers not involved in such decisions - are their opinions worthless?
You obviously know a lot about running LEL, so please educate us!
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I'm sure DW seeks input from all his team and decisions are concencious based. I am also sure the 'wash-up' session planned will consider feedback and lessons identified from all those involved that will no doubt be fed through controllers at checkpoints as they will presumably have had their own 'wash-up' sessions and I was involved in such a session at Brampton 4 yr ago. All this will undoubtably inform the core organising team and I am quite content to leave matters such as entry requirements to those folk as suggested by mmmmartin.
Anyway, it was good to see you at a control and many thanks for giving your time to support the event. Regards educating you, I would never be so impertinent as to consider I could offer any education to you!
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I'm sure DW seeks input from all his team and decisions are concencious based. I am also sure the 'wash-up' session planned will consider feedback and lessons identified from all those involved that will no doubt be fed through controllers at checkpoints as they will presumably have had their own 'wash-up' sessions and I was involved in such a session at Brampton 4 yr ago. All this will undoubtably inform the core organising team and I am quite content to leave matters such as entry requirements to those folk as suggested by mmmmartin.
So why shouldn't we discuss it here? Could be a useful source of feedback and lessons, surely? (if you don't want to be involved - that's fine.)
Anyway, it was good to see you at a control and many thanks for giving your time to support the event.
A pleasure!
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I believe that there were 1442 starters . So the entry numbers worked for us .. reduce work by taking more entries and then not having to deal with a reserve list. I think we are comfortable with the entry pattern .. an early block to give us funds , then AUK priority , then mad scramble across three time zones . I think we are comfortable with a first guess of 50/50 UK and overseas .. it might not in the end turn out like that when we come to actual starters. i think that encouraging the less experienced riders to come from the Far east is something that DW wishes to encourage and retain.
My views only .. not considered input from central team.
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If there were 819 finishers and 1442 starters that's a 43% DNF rate.
Is that right???
John
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It would be interesting to know how many medals got given out.
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If there were 819 finishers and 1442 starters that's a 43% DNF rate.
Is that right???
John
I dunno but I had also calculated a 40+ percent DNF rate.
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There are some anomalies in the finisher list (e.g. I was not on it when I looked), due to some confusion between bag check-in/out and rider check-in/out at a control or two. I think it affected 200-300 riders, which might change the percentages somewhat.
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There are some anomalies in the finisher list (e.g. I was not on it when I looked), due to some confusion between bag check-in/out and rider check-in/out at a control or two. I think it affected 200-300 riders, which might change the percentages somewhat.
Aha! That would make sense. I wasn't sure if someone had got the 4 and 3 the wrong way round!
Johm
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It would be interesting to compare the DNF rate in the 100h and 117h groups. I've heard a few tales of people who made it back inside 117h but had signed up for the tighter limit, or that had DNFd because they couldn't make the 100h.
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The first was fairly common amongst the individuals I looked at. I'd not be surprised if the second was similarly common.
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Got chatting to 2 DNF'rs at Edin waverly station on different days last week on my lunch hour sandwich run. Both cited weather, and both seemed really disappointed.
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When I check the times published by a few people on Facebook or Strava I see people usually riding an hour or 1-2 faster on a 200/300 as I finishing just within the timelimit. These same people on a 1200/1400 usually finish with 5-10 hours in hand. So based on this my estimate is that many riders were 5-10 hours slower as usual due to the headwind. Anyone who usually would be arriving in the final 5 hours had very slim chances of completing the ride within the timelimit.
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When I left Barnard Castle at around midday on Wednesday it was dry and sunny. Before I reached Melsonby, I could see the rain coming to greet me. I had around 7 hours in hand at that point.
I said to myself that anyone not across the top of Yad Moss by the time the rain hit them was in for a rough ride and already potential DNF material. I was brought up in this area so I know how quickly things can change for the worse , even on a bright sunny day.
I hadn't factored in the appalling weather that was ahead of me in Lincolnshire AND the vicious headwinds in the Cambridgeshire fens,although I was warned about them at Thirsk control.
On my previous excursions from Paris , my speed has dropped off quite steadily on the return. That also needs to be taken account of in ride planning, because it can be quite scary how you erode your time buffer on the later part of the journey.
Biggest tip for all wannabes-keep moving-sleep is a luxury,so limit yourself to 3 hours at the most, unless you are supremely confident that your riding speed will not drop below say, 10 mph.
When discussing entry requirements, don't forget that AUK members with membership in the previous year got preferential treatment so every AUK had a chance to enter before the foreign riders and non-AUK members.
I don't mind if newbies get to ride and screw up.
It's possibly more valuable if we can get them into the audax ethos and wean them off sportives and charity rides.
There seems to be a few people who seem to think that something like LEL is a jolly good thing to do, without taking into account the training needed beforehand.
One day this could come back to haunt AUK . So far we have been very lucky with a small number of accidents and with the majority of abandonees able to make their own way back to the start under their own steam. I hope it stays that way.
It is in the hands of AUK , cycling clubs and individual members to encourage all those showing an interest in LEL to ride a 400 or 600k just to get some experience of pushing through the night at some point. I had done the Border Raid 600 only 2 weeks before LEL started.
I am now sick of used to riding through Longtown to Moffat and back in the dark, with or without company.
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Please be careful with DNF stats. I meet plenty of riders who were outside their time (technically DNF) but we're still completing the route and bully for them. We even stamped cards in the car park for a dozen riders who arrived after we had packed up the control.
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Weather: I was surprised how unprepared for unpleasant conditions some riders appeared to be and how cold and wet some seemed to get.
When we first lived near Paris in 1972 I was surprised that I could go out on a July evening and not need a jacket.
When I visited my sister in Northern Ireland in July 1995 I packed shorts and had to borrow a parka.
On PBP 2015 I was mildly bemused at seeing Asian riders clad in every stitch of clothing they appeared to possess when I was in shirt & shorts.
Folk from abroad do not appreciate just how vile UK weather can be.
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sizbut-There is a difference between completing LEL and completing LEL within your chosen time limit.
One presumes that the DNF figures are based on the closing time of the final control.
AUK lists all those who finish within the time limit. Others are not recognised as there is no hors delai category as in PBP.
T42- When growing up on a farm not far from the route between Barnard Castle and Thirsk, I can distinctly remember sitting on a tractor (without a cab in those days) in July ,trying to make hay whilst wearing the same donkey jacket that I would have worn when feeding that hay to sheep in the depths of winter. The difference between Yorkshire and Essex is general one or two overcoats.
I am glad I took my heavier Event fabric waterproof on LEL , rather than save weight and use a boil in the bag/leak like a sieve racing jacket.
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Hmmm... I think that is kind of what I said - DNF does not equal Did Not Finish.
The point being that it may be being excessively harsh to point at the DNF figures and shout "robbing others of their places" with accompanying suggestions of unpreparedness, etc. when the DNF'er simply got to the finish a few hours too late, ie. they were and are fit competent cyclists who did the distance but unfortunately ran into prolonged 20mph plus headwinds.
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It would be interesting to compare the DNF rate in the 100h and 117h groups.
60 per cent DNF in the 100 hour group lifted the overall DNF rate to about a third. Without those DNF in the 100 hour group it would have been about the same DNF rate as usual, and about the same as PBP.
Remember those who finished want to trumpet the higher overall DNF rate because it suggests they finished in spite of it being a harder year than usual.
Remember those who didn't finish want to trumpet the higher overall DNF rate because it suggests they DNF because of it being a harder year than usual.
Remember the scorching powerful headwind of legend across the Fens from last time?
At Moffat I saw a friend arrive utterly drenched from a thunderstorm. Ten minutes later a group of six arrived and said they'd had a fantastic run up from London with a tailwind and not a drop of rain all the way.
LEL is always hard - otherwise everyone would do it. The only thing that's different is the weather. This year wasn't harder than previous events. It was different.
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you need to add lack of sleep
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Hmmm... I think that is kind of what I said - DNF does not equal Did Not Finish.
On that basis I could have "finished". I had a mechanical at 11pm with 3.5 hours in hand. By the time a bike shop opened ( 10 hours later ) I would be completely out of time and not going to make up the deficit in the final 400km of headwinds. If you are out of time then you didn't finish "the event" or "the challenge" which was 1400km -ish in 116h or so. I am a well equipped, fit rider used to UK conditions. I could have easily ridden the final 400km but there's no way I could have in time.
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LEL is always hard - otherwise everyone would do it. The only thing that's different is the weather. This year wasn't harder than previous events. It was different.
You were obviously riding a different event to me. The 2017 version was harder than the 2005 version, despite the improvements in facilities
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Hmmm... I think that is kind of what I said - DNF does not equal Did Not Finish.
The point being that it may be being excessively harsh to point at the DNF figures and shout "robbing others of their places" with accompanying suggestions of unpreparedness, etc. when the DNF'er simply got to the finish a few hours too late, ie. they were and are fit competent cyclists who did the distance but unfortunately ran into prolonged 20mph plus headwinds.
If you didn't get round in your chosen time 100 hours or 116 hours then you are DNF, no debate. Anyone can cover any distance on a bike if there are no time limits involved. THe weather and conditions were the same for everyone, some were up to the task some were not. The weather is not an excuse. If you made it back to Loughton outside of the time limit you can say you've ridden from London to Edinburgh and back but you can't say you did it as a successful Audax.
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Interesting discussion.
Me? I'd pick three options; accident, saddle sores and knee. But then one (accident) caused the other two.
As for the great drop-out rate debate - I have the feeling that DW is quite relaxed about a high drop-out rate. This is because:
1. DNFs still paid their entry fee
2. if LEL gets a reputation as being a Hard Ride all the better
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Am I correct in remembering that in 2013 there were no 100 hour groups? That being my first LEL, I just rode until I was tired (Thirsk) then decided to sleep at Edinburgh and Thirsk again. I think I spent an hour at each non-sleep control, as I don't like to rush eating/digesting, and I just happened to finish in just over 97 hours. 2015 being my first PBP, I saw there were finish times from 80-90 hours and, if it was your first time, 90 hours was recommended. I went for that, and just happened to finish bang on 80 hours. If I'd started in the 80 hour groups, I'd have pushed myself harder from Brest (arrived there in 36 hours), and not ridden with some who were going slower.
On this LEL, I knew the earlier (more favourable start times) were for the 100 hour limit. I was tempted as I felt I could do it again, given similar weather conditions but, as I already had the notion of ECE-ing to and from Loughton, and didn't know if 100 hour finishers got anything different, I went for the full value limit. I'm glad I did (finishing inside 104 hours), but if I was in the 100 hour groups, I'd have had to try harder on the return, and get myself through the controls quicker. I'd have been gutted to get back to Loughton, but outside the cut-off.
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2. if LEL gets a reputation as being a Hard Ride all the better
Going off track (again), do those who've done both think LEL is harder than PBP? I thought PBP2015 was harder than LEL 2013.
I did Mille Cymru 2 in 2014, and Mille Pennines 1 in 2016. I found the Pennines with 10 AAA points harder than the Cymru with 16. Am I just getting it wrong? I've been at a similar weight and perceived fitness at all the events.
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I responded "knee/Achilles" because that was the main cause for me stopping.
I've had problems with my knees since May, and every time I ride over about 300km they get a little bit grumpy with me - I thought I could sort it out with gentler riding and so on, and I thought I had it under control - I rode 250km in June and felt pretty awesome, and I thought I was over it. I then tried to ride a 400km about 4 weeks out from the start as a final training ride, and only made it 100km before I climbed on a train and went home, pretty despondent.
At this point, it was too late to back out and get my place reallocated, so I decided I would line up on the start and see how it all went - knowing it was likely my knees would give up, potentially even before the first control.
I lined up on the Sunday at 1215, rode the first day up to Louth, slept on a bit of floor there, had no breakfast and generally had a bit of a miserable time, but pressed on, I was one of the people who stripped the poor shop at Barton upon Humber clean of food at about 0600 on Monday morning, pressed on to pocklington and enjoyed the control at Coxwold, saw my parents very quickly at thirsk as we bounced through and then on to B-Castle and Brampton for the night - I got one of the last beds that evening in Brampton, and was very grateful for it - my knees hurt each night as I slept and took quite some time to get going in the mornings. on Tuesday, I rode to Edinburgh and back, not going to lie - getting into Edinburgh (with a mechanical - which is the topic of another thread) I was pretty emotional, and pretty amazed that I had made it that far. I got back to Brampton that night at 0230 - having lost 2.5hrs sorting the mechanical - slept ok, knees still hurt a bit, but nothing show stopper at this point.
Wednesday morning, and I actually felt pretty bloody good - got moving stormed over Yad Moss, and into B-Castle, on to Thirsk, pick up supplies from my parents and pressed on to Pocklington, by the time the Howardian Hills came round my knees were not happy, and I was struggling to keep up with the group, by the time I got to Pocklington, I was finding it hard to keep the bike moving without my knees hurting so much I wanted to vomit - in particular, the transition from free wheeling to pedalling was absolute agony. I decided to sleep on it, and try them in the morning. I tried riding round the car park at about 0415 in the morning, I really couldn't do it - it was still agony to transition from pedalling to free wheeling and it gave me that sick feeling to do it. I decided that whilst I might be able to press on to Louth, maybe even further - there wasn't 350km left in my knees on that ride - so fearing that I would do permanent damage - I got on the train at York and went to Leeds to sleep before heading back to London.
On a set of knees that couldn't do 150km 10th July, I did 1100km all told (including the ride of shame to the train station). I'm overall happy with what I got done, I still had a minuscule amount of time in hand when I packed (due to sleeping). My next step is saving up some cash for a bike fit, and training for PBP. I aim to be back for 2021, when I can ride it as my 40th birthday present to myself.
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2. if LEL gets a reputation as being a Hard Ride all the better
Going off track (again), do those who've done both think LEL is harder than PBP? I thought PBP2015 was harder than LEL 2013.
I did Mille Cymru 2 in 2014, and Mille Pennines 1 in 2016. I found the Pennines with 10 AAA points harder than the Cymru with 16. Am I just getting it wrong? I've been at a similar weight and perceived fitness at all the events.
(hey, we've more-or-less ridden* the same events!)
LEL vs PBP: apples/oranges. LEL route is harder, but the reduced min speed helps balance that. Weather is more significant on both.
MC1k vs MP1k; assuming the Mille Pennines didn't change much for this year, I'd say it is a MUCh harder route than the welsh ride. I think the AAA points are an oddity for this one - I believe the actual climbing figures and the gradients involved will show the Welsh ride to be less hard.
With the same weather, both the "hilly" UK 1000s are much harder than LEL.
*well, started anyway ...
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...Many folk limit their riding speed on narrow corners with poor sightlines and on crap surfaces. ...
You make it sound like a bad thing!
I know it is more efficient to maintain momentum, and that works out fine 99.9% of the time, but sooner or later...
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the great drop-out rate debate
But Rob, is it a debate? Isn't the rate the same as usual but artificially inflated by riders entering the 100 hour group to get a place, then 60 per cent of them are DNF because they couldn't get round within 100 hours? The only question really is whether creating the 100 hour group then sending it off earlier than the "mere mortals" does in fact achieve its aim - to spread the demand on controls. If it did that then it's a great way to increase the event income that can then be spent on the riders.
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...Many folk limit their riding speed on narrow corners with poor sightlines and on crap surfaces. ...
You make it sound like a bad thing!
I know it is more efficient to maintain momentum, and that works out fine 99.9% of the time, but sooner or later...
It is a bad thing (for finishing in time) when they are crawling round at jogging pace instead of averaging their expected 20-25 kph. Many folk are overly conservative at the slightest hint of poor conditions but that is their own choice. This is a thread discussing reasons for DNFing.
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Got ya.
(& yes, I see accidents are listed as a reason.)
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latest stats seem to suggest a 43% DNF rate
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the great drop-out rate debate
But Rob, is it a debate? Isn't the rate the same as usual but artificially inflated by riders entering the 100 hour group to get a place, then 60 per cent of them are DNF because they couldn't get round within 100 hours? The only question really is whether creating the 100 hour group then sending it off earlier than the "mere mortals" does in fact achieve its aim - to spread the demand on controls. If it did that then it's a great way to increase the event income that can then be spent on the riders.
....but you had to have secured an entry before choosing your start time (100/116hr cut off).. so you couldn't enter as 100hr just to get a place.
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you need to add lack of sleep
Yes, absolutely. Was a major factor for me as there were times I was in danger of crashing due to falling asleep on the bike. Additionally, I lost time by having to take unplanned sleep stops at Alston instead of pushing on to Moffat. Also at Eskdalemuir when I really wanted to push on to Brampton, but just spent 2 hours shivering instead of sleeping, and had to sleep at Brampton to catch up.
Just how do others combat sleep dep, as I find that I simply cannot focus on the road ahead, and it just blurs and swims about in front of me, and I have no option but to stop.
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I have to sleep before it reaches that stage. Spending an hour or more asleep at the right time saves heaps more time than continuing on the road for too long. Unfortunately, when up against the time limit, it is very tempting to just push on a bit further because you "can't afford the time stopped".
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Just how do others combat sleep dep, as I find that I simply cannot focus on the road ahead, and it just blurs and swims about in front of me, and I have no option but to stop.
By stopping and sleeping, preferably before actual deprivation kicks in. Last time round, I lost a fair bit of time due to not recognising the problem, and trying to push on through it. This time I was much readier to stop and sleep, on the basis that I'd be much fitter to continue after a rest.
Sleep - or at least shut-eye - this time was roughly:
3 1/2 hours at Louth
3 1/2 hours at Alston
3 hours at Eskdalemuir
30 mins in a field before Alston
1 hour at Pocklington
20 mins on the dining room floor at Louth
15 mins in a bus shelter after Cambridge
1 hour at Great Easton
The field and the bus shelter both paid great dividends in terms of extra speed and enthusiasm after a bit of kip.
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As a bloke called Steve Abraham wrote:
"The best way to stay awake is to get some sleep."
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Just how do others combat sleep dep,
By riding fast enough and with minimal faff to bank enough time to get decent time off the bike.
Here's the amount of time off the bike I spent each evening. (All this time wasn't spent actually sleeping because of time spent showering, eating etc.)
Night 1: Hull West Premium Inn for 6½ hours
Night 2: Annandale Waters Service Station Days Inn for 7 hours
Night 3: Alston (managed to get a room in the Youth Hostel rather than space in the school) for 8 hours
Night 4: Louth control for 7½ hours
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Sunday night: no sleep
Monday night:15 minutes at Thirsk+ 6 hours at Alston sleep stop
Tuesday night: 1.5 hours at Innerleithen
Wednesday I packed due to mechanical problem, had 3.5h in hand
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Sleep for me did not coincide with any particular time of day or night but more so guided by the miles covered and how I was feeling. I rode through most or all of every night. The air seemed stiller in the dark. Never had a problem getting a bed in any of the controls during day light hours.
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I ended up in the combatting sleep stage for a while, LWaB dusted me up at the end of one of these stages.
-Rode through the 1st night, the issues in the morning were not related to LEL
-2nd night 1h30 in Brampton, arrived there when a lot of people already left their sleeping quarters
-3rd night 0h45 in Bramtpon after arrving during the morning hours. booked for 1h30 but was awake after 45 minutes. It would have been better to sleep in a field/ditch a few hours earlier.
-4th night, 0h45 in Pocklington. Awoke after 45 minutes went to the loo and decided not to go back to sleep. Failure, I was in zombie mode for several hours.
After that I packed. I was already out of time (arrived in Pocklington with 1 minute to spare) and felt that I needed a serious sleep break before continuing.
It went wrong halfway between Eskdalemuir and Brampton. Note to myself, next time take a sleepingbag again.