[LEL17] LEL DNF reasons poll

[De Sisti]

However, I'm inclined to think that there should be a qualification criteria.

Ain't gonna happen. Danial won't wear it. End. Of.
If you want a guarantee to get a place, volunteer. If you're not prepared to put something back into your sport activity/hobby, take up another sport activity/hobby.

Why do some people think that riding a bike is a sport?

[eml1909]

Do I worry about 'depriving' someone else, no, as even the best prepared entrants can have unforeseen issues that force a DNF. Well done to all that did finish and all the best to everyone else with the aches and pains.

Just to be clear, when I referred to "depriving" others of a place, I was *only* referring to certain people who stood no realistic chance of completing from the outset. Of course, there are many people who were just unlucky (illness, mechanicals, injury etc), and those things can happen to anyone. But some people, it seemed to me, were never going to make it because they'd simply underestimated the task in hand.

I'm interested to know why people think the DNF rate jumped to 34% this time, given the conditions were not materially different.

Perhaps one explanation is that the event has become so well known and so popular that people sign up without giving enough thought to whether they can actually complete it?

As I say, if there had been a qualifying condition, I wouldn't have got a place. So I'm not speaking as an experienced audax rider who is trying to prevent newbies from giving it a go.

I thought the event was absolutely ncredible in every respect. It was one of the best things I've ever done. All I'm saying is that it's a shame for someone to take a place if they have no realistic prospect of getting round.

[vorsprung]

Snapped seat post:I have night mares about this happening and the sharp bit that's left causing an agonising injury! That didn't happen I hope?! Did it snap clean through, what happened to the saddle, did you fall off?

In my case, I went back to the bike park to get my saddlebag off the bike and when I tried to remove it the whole saddle/post/bag came away in one piece.  Don't know why it failed then and not during the immediately previous 60km pace line chain gang

It sheered at the clamp so I assume there was a stress mark there.  Don't know if the signs of stress would have been there before I left home for the event or if the problems developed during the event.  I have an unusually large saddlebag and Richie speculated that the side to side lateral pendulum movements are probably what did for it.  The break was fairly clean and almost square

[Bikeabilityman]

I feel sorry for you, vorsprung, especially as you were doing a mechanic service last time (you replaced a broken spoke I hadn't spotted).

Was the dnf rate really 34% (over 300)?

[vorsprung]

I feel sorry for you, vorsprung, especially as you were doing a mechanic service last time (you replaced a broken spoke I hadn't spotted).

Was the dnf rate really 34% (over 300)?

That's what Daniel is saying and I believe it

When you consider that many of the riders were either
1) from abroad and not used to UK weather / roads / food
2) inexperienced, not having done a ride this long before
3) both 1&2

The weather wasn't great.  If you were unlucky then you'd have got drenched several times, plus there was a brisk headwind on the homeward stretch.  Dunno about you but I had stuff like water proof socks and  a full on winter coat with me.  I had 4 pairs of long finger gloves and 3 pairs of mitts.

As I started at the back (1600 start) I could see many people in trouble from the off.  Saw two people DNF (one accident and one terminal mechanical) in the first stage

[vorsprung]

All I'm saying is that it's a shame for someone to take a place if they have no realistic prospect of getting round.

I disagree.   For 3 reasons

1) Just riding part of the event is both a good way to participate and good experience
2) how can someone judge their "realistic" prospects?  If the weather is good, the person is feeling good and they find people to ride with they will make it.  If the weather is crap, they are feeling at a low and they are always on their own then they won't make it
3) the bureaucracy of qualifying (or who qualifies etc etc) is an extra burden to both rider and organiser

Also: do you not think that the organisers realise that there is a drop out rate and factor it into their arrangements?

[nextSibling]

Weather: I was surprised how unprepared for unpleasant conditions some riders appeared to be and how cold and wet some seemed to get.

Inexperience: Twice I ended up helping riders with flats on the first day, in one case conducting an impromptu class on how to patch a tube.

Food: More than once heard of riders who were adversely affected on Tuesday by insufficient food at Louth the night before.

Personally, DNF Barnard Castle because I just wasn't fit enough. Work got in the way of spring miles, not enough weight-loss, relying too much on previous experience rather then this year's training, etc., etc.

[eml1909]

All I'm saying is that it's a shame for someone to take a place if they have no realistic prospect of getting round.

I disagree.   For 3 reasons

1) Just riding part of the event is both a good way to participate and good experience
2) how can someone judge their "realistic" prospects?  If the weather is good, the person is feeling good and they find people to ride with they will make it.  If the weather is crap, they are feeling at a low and they are always on their own then they won't make it
3) the bureaucracy of qualifying (or who qualifies etc etc) is an extra burden to both rider and organiser

Also: do you not think that the organisers realise that there is a drop out rate and factor it into their arrangements?

My impression is that the organisers did not expect such a high DNF rate. I may be wrong.

There are obviously no guarantees, but if you've done, say, a couple of 600s in the previous 12 months, I'd say that's a fairly good sign that you have at least a realistic prospect of getting round. No guarantees that things won't go wrong, but at least it shows an ability to do very long rides.

I agree with you about the additional admin, but aren't most audax rides accredited by the national audax organisation? Perhaps you'd just have to self-certify that you've done the pre-qualification and leave it to trust / spot-checks?

As to 1, yes -  it's a good thing to participate. But there are *lots* of other cycling events (audax and sportives). This is a 1400km ride and it seems a shame to take a place if, realistically, you aren't able to complete it.

Question: would it be better to have 1500 starters and only 15-20% DNFs, as compared to 1500 starters and 34% DNFs?

I'm interested to know why the organisers think the rate was so much higher this year.

Anyway, this is none of my business. It was my first ever audax event and I absolutely loved it. Brilliant organisation in every respect. It was a privilege to take part in it.

[grams]

Hopefully many, many of the DNFs will be finishers in 2021 due to lessons learnt this year. LEL is unique enough that you can only really learn what problems you'll have and what mistakes you'll make by actually doing it.

(I agree there were a *lot* of people on the road who weren't experienced or prepared enough, but I suspect as many of them were finishers as DNFs)

[Ivo]

When I DNF'ed I was at the back of the field and many experienced riders were around me. The main issue was the wind and especially the differences in wind between out and back. Outbound we had a reasonable tailwind, for the return, especially on thursday, there was a very strong headwind. Since the effects of wind have to be squared this means that the riders who usually can finish between 105 and 116 hours now had their chances extremely deminished. On a normal LEL, when you arrive at Barnard Castle with time in hand you almost made it. Now it was the opposite, you needed several hours in hand at Barnard Castle to have a realistic chance of completing the ride within the time limit.
During the first night I discussed this with another rider, on the assumption of the wind staying the same, we calculated that you needed at least 5 hours in hand in Edinburgh. The wind picked up though.
An error many riders made during the first night was sticking to their predetermined schedule and not profiting from the wind advantage by pushing on a control further.

[LMT]

I feel sorry for you, vorsprung, especially as you were doing a mechanic service last time (you replaced a broken spoke I hadn't spotted).

Was the dnf rate really 34% (over 300)?

819 riders from the provo finisher list. That out of 1500, unless there were less starters or those that carried on but were OOT.

[mattc]

Or perhaps we should leave such matters as entry requirements to those organising the event and heed the comments of mmmmartin above.

Who do you mean? There are a LOT of people involved in organising - do they all get a say?  (and should they?)

And how about the hundreds of volunteers not involved in such decisions - are their opinions worthless?

You obviously know a lot about running LEL, so please educate us!

[Veloman]

I'm sure DW seeks input from all his team and decisions are concencious based.  I am also sure the 'wash-up' session planned will consider feedback and lessons identified from all those involved that will no doubt be fed through controllers at checkpoints as they will presumably have had their own 'wash-up' sessions and I was involved in such a session at Brampton 4 yr ago.  All this will undoubtably inform the core organising team and I am quite content to leave matters such as entry requirements to those folk as suggested by mmmmartin.

Anyway, it was good to see you at a control and many thanks for giving your time to support the event. Regards educating you, I would never be so impertinent as to consider I could offer any education to you!

[mattc]

I'm sure DW seeks input from all his team and decisions are concencious based.  I am also sure the 'wash-up' session planned will consider feedback and lessons identified from all those involved that will no doubt be fed through controllers at checkpoints as they will presumably have had their own 'wash-up' sessions and I was involved in such a session at Brampton 4 yr ago.  All this will undoubtably inform the core organising team and I am quite content to leave matters such as entry requirements to those folk as suggested by mmmmartin.

So why shouldn't we discuss it here? Could be a useful source of feedback and lessons, surely? (if you don't want to be involved - that's fine.)

Anyway, it was good to see you at a control and many thanks for giving your time to support the event.

A pleasure!

[Fidgetbuzz]

I believe that there were 1442 starters . So the entry numbers worked for us .. reduce work by taking more entries and then  not having to deal with a reserve list. I think we are comfortable with the entry pattern .. an early block to give us funds , then AUK priority , then mad scramble across three time zones . I think we are comfortable with a first guess of 50/50 UK and overseas .. it might not in the end turn out like that when we come to actual starters.  i think that encouraging the less experienced riders to come from the Far east is something that DW wishes to encourage and retain.

My views only .. not considered input from central team.

[JohnL]

If there were 819 finishers and 1442 starters that's a 43% DNF rate.

Is that right???

John

[Exit Stage Left]

It would be interesting to know how many medals got given out.

[αdαmsκι]

If there were 819 finishers and 1442 starters that's a 43% DNF rate.

Is that right???

John

I dunno but I had also calculated a 40+ percent DNF rate.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

There are some anomalies in the finisher list (e.g. I was not on it when I looked), due to some confusion between bag check-in/out and rider check-in/out at a control or two. I think it affected 200-300 riders, which might change the percentages somewhat.

[JohnL]

There are some anomalies in the finisher list (e.g. I was not on it when I looked), due to some confusion between bag check-in/out and rider check-in/out at a control or two. I think it affected 200-300 riders, which might change the percentages somewhat.

Aha! That would make sense. I wasn't sure if someone had got the 4 and 3 the wrong way round!

Johm

[mcshroom]

It would be interesting to compare the DNF rate in the 100h and 117h groups. I've heard a few tales of people who made it back inside 117h but had signed up for the tighter limit, or that had DNFd because they couldn't make the 100h.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

The first was fairly common amongst the individuals I looked at. I'd not be surprised if the second was similarly common.

[sg37409]

Got chatting to 2 DNF'rs at Edin waverly station on different days last week on my lunch hour sandwich run.  Both cited weather, and both seemed really disappointed.

[Ivo]

When I check the times published by a few people on Facebook or Strava I see people usually riding an hour or 1-2 faster on a 200/300 as I finishing just within the timelimit. These same people on a 1200/1400 usually finish with 5-10 hours in hand. So based on this my estimate is that many riders were 5-10 hours slower as usual due to the headwind. Anyone who usually would be arriving in the final 5 hours had very slim chances of completing the ride within the timelimit.

[madcow]

When I left Barnard Castle at around midday on Wednesday it was dry and sunny. Before I reached Melsonby, I could see the rain coming to greet me. I had around 7 hours in hand at that point.
 I said to myself that anyone not across the top of Yad Moss by the time the rain hit them was in for a rough ride and already potential DNF material. I was brought up in this area so I know how quickly things can change for the worse , even on a bright sunny day.
I hadn't factored in the appalling weather that was ahead of me in Lincolnshire AND the vicious headwinds in the Cambridgeshire fens,although I was warned about them at Thirsk control.
On my previous excursions from Paris , my speed has dropped off quite steadily on the return. That also needs to be taken account of in ride planning, because it can be quite scary how you erode your time buffer on the later part of the journey.
Biggest tip for all wannabes-keep moving-sleep is a luxury,so limit yourself to 3 hours at the most, unless you are supremely confident that your riding speed will not drop below say, 10 mph.

When discussing entry requirements, don't forget that AUK members with membership in the previous year got preferential treatment so every AUK had a chance to enter before the foreign riders and non-AUK members.
I don't mind if newbies get to ride and screw up.
It's possibly more valuable if we can get them into the audax ethos and wean them off sportives and charity rides.
There seems to be a few people who seem to think that something like LEL is a jolly good thing to do, without taking into account the training needed beforehand.
One day this could come back to haunt AUK . So far we have been very lucky with a small number of accidents and with the majority of abandonees able to make their own way back to the start under their own steam. I hope it stays that way.
It is in the hands of AUK , cycling clubs and individual members to encourage all those showing an interest in LEL to ride a 400 or 600k just to get some experience of pushing through the night at some point. I had done the Border Raid 600 only 2 weeks before LEL started.
I am now sick of used to riding through Longtown to Moffat and back in the dark, with or without company.