[LEL17] LEL DNF reasons poll

[sizbut]

Please be careful with DNF stats. I meet plenty of riders who were outside their time (technically DNF) but we're still completing the route and bully for them. We even stamped cards in the car park for a dozen riders who arrived after we had packed up the control.

[T42]

Weather: I was surprised how unprepared for unpleasant conditions some riders appeared to be and how cold and wet some seemed to get.

When we first lived near Paris in 1972 I was surprised that I could go out on a July evening and not need a jacket.

When I visited my sister in Northern Ireland in July 1995 I packed shorts and had to borrow a parka.

On PBP 2015 I was mildly bemused at seeing Asian riders clad in every stitch of clothing they appeared to possess when I was in shirt & shorts.

Folk from abroad do not appreciate just how vile UK weather can be.

[madcow]

sizbut-There is a difference between completing LEL and completing LEL within your chosen time limit.
One presumes that the DNF figures are based on the closing time of the final control.
AUK lists all those who finish within the time limit. Others are not recognised as there is no hors delai category as in PBP.

T42- When growing up on a farm not far from the route between Barnard Castle and Thirsk, I can distinctly remember sitting on a tractor (without a cab in those days) in July ,trying to make hay whilst wearing the same donkey jacket that I would have worn when feeding that hay to sheep in the depths of winter. The difference between Yorkshire and Essex is general one or two overcoats.
I am glad I took my heavier Event fabric waterproof on LEL , rather than save weight and use a boil in the bag/leak like a sieve racing jacket.

[sizbut]

Hmmm... I think that is kind of what I said - DNF does not equal Did Not Finish.

The point being that it may be being excessively harsh to point at the DNF figures and shout "robbing others of their places" with accompanying suggestions of unpreparedness, etc. when the DNF'er simply got to the finish a few hours too late, ie. they were and are fit competent cyclists who did the distance but unfortunately ran into prolonged 20mph plus headwinds.

[mmmmartin]

It would be interesting to compare the DNF rate in the 100h and 117h groups.

60 per cent DNF in the 100 hour group lifted the overall DNF rate to about a third. Without those DNF in the 100 hour group it would have been about the same DNF rate as usual, and about the same as PBP.
Remember those who finished want to trumpet the higher overall DNF rate because it suggests they finished in spite of it being a harder year than usual.
Remember those who didn't finish want to trumpet the higher overall DNF rate because it suggests they DNF because of it being a harder year than usual.
Remember the scorching powerful headwind of legend across the Fens from last time?
At Moffat I saw a friend arrive utterly drenched from a thunderstorm. Ten minutes later a group of six arrived and said they'd had a fantastic run up from London with a tailwind and not a drop of rain all the way.
LEL is always hard - otherwise everyone would do it. The only thing that's different is the weather. This year wasn't harder than previous events. It was different.

[Martin]

you need to add lack of sleep

[vorsprung]

Hmmm... I think that is kind of what I said - DNF does not equal Did Not Finish.

On that basis I could have "finished".  I had a mechanical at 11pm with 3.5 hours in hand.   By the time a bike shop opened ( 10 hours later ) I would be completely out of time and not going to make up the deficit in the final 400km of headwinds.  If you are out of time then you didn't finish "the event" or "the challenge" which was 1400km -ish in 116h or so.  I am a well equipped, fit rider used to UK conditions.  I could have easily ridden the final 400km but there's no way I could have in time.

[vorsprung]

LEL is always hard - otherwise everyone would do it. The only thing that's different is the weather. This year wasn't harder than previous events. It was different.

You were obviously riding a different event to me.  The 2017 version was harder than the 2005 version, despite the improvements in facilities

[Brakeless]

Hmmm... I think that is kind of what I said - DNF does not equal Did Not Finish.

The point being that it may be being excessively harsh to point at the DNF figures and shout "robbing others of their places" with accompanying suggestions of unpreparedness, etc. when the DNF'er simply got to the finish a few hours too late, ie. they were and are fit competent cyclists who did the distance but unfortunately ran into prolonged 20mph plus headwinds.

If you didn't get round in your chosen time 100 hours or 116 hours then you are DNF, no debate.  Anyone can cover any distance on a bike if there are no time limits involved. THe weather and conditions were the same for everyone, some were up to the task some were not. The weather is not an excuse. If you made it back to Loughton outside of the time limit you can say you've ridden from London to Edinburgh and back but you can't say you did it as a successful Audax.

[Wobbly]

Interesting discussion.

Me? I'd pick three options; accident, saddle sores and knee. But then one (accident) caused the other two.

As for the great drop-out rate debate - I have the feeling that DW is quite relaxed about a high drop-out rate. This is because:
1. DNFs still paid their entry fee
2. if LEL gets a reputation  as being a Hard Ride all the better

[Bikeabilityman]

Am I correct in remembering that in 2013 there were no 100 hour groups? That being my first LEL, I just rode until I was tired (Thirsk) then decided to sleep at Edinburgh and Thirsk again. I think I spent an hour at each non-sleep control, as I don't like to rush eating/digesting, and I just happened to finish in just over 97 hours. 2015 being my first PBP, I saw there were finish times from 80-90 hours and, if it was your first time, 90 hours was recommended. I went for that, and just happened to finish bang on 80 hours. If I'd started in the 80 hour groups, I'd have pushed myself harder from Brest (arrived there in 36 hours), and not ridden with some who were going slower.

On this LEL, I knew the earlier (more favourable start times) were for the 100 hour limit. I was tempted as I felt I could do it again, given similar weather conditions but, as I already had the notion of ECE-ing to and from Loughton, and didn't know if 100 hour finishers got anything different, I went for the full value limit. I'm glad I did (finishing inside 104 hours), but if I was in the 100 hour groups, I'd have had to try harder on the return, and get myself through the controls quicker. I'd have been gutted to get back to Loughton, but outside the cut-off.

[Bikeabilityman]

2. if LEL gets a reputation  as being a Hard Ride all the better

Going off track (again), do those who've done both think LEL is harder than PBP? I thought PBP2015 was harder than LEL 2013.
I did Mille Cymru 2 in 2014, and Mille Pennines 1 in 2016. I found the Pennines with 10 AAA points harder than the Cymru with 16. Am I just getting it wrong? I've been at a similar weight and perceived fitness at all the events.

[Bokonon]

I responded "knee/Achilles" because that was the main cause for me stopping.

I've had problems with my knees since May, and every time I ride over about 300km they get a little bit grumpy with me - I thought I could sort it out with gentler riding and so on, and I thought I had it under control - I rode 250km in June and felt pretty awesome, and I thought I was over it. I then tried to ride a 400km about 4 weeks out from the start as a final training ride, and only made it 100km before I climbed on a train and went home, pretty despondent.

At this point, it was too late to back out and get my place reallocated, so I decided I would line up on the start and see how it all went - knowing it was likely my knees would give up, potentially even before the first control.

I lined up on the Sunday at 1215, rode the first day up to Louth, slept on a bit of floor there, had no breakfast and generally had a bit of a miserable time, but pressed on, I was one of the people who stripped the poor shop at Barton upon Humber clean of food at about 0600 on Monday morning, pressed on to pocklington and enjoyed the control at Coxwold, saw my parents very quickly at thirsk as we bounced through and then on to B-Castle and Brampton for the night - I got one of the last beds that evening in Brampton, and was very grateful for it - my knees hurt each night as I slept and took quite some time to get going in the mornings. on Tuesday, I rode to Edinburgh and back, not going to lie - getting into Edinburgh (with a mechanical - which is the topic of another thread) I was pretty emotional, and pretty amazed that I had made it that far. I got back to Brampton that night at 0230 - having lost 2.5hrs sorting the mechanical - slept ok, knees still hurt a bit, but nothing show stopper at this point.

Wednesday morning, and I actually felt pretty bloody good - got moving stormed over Yad Moss, and into B-Castle, on to Thirsk, pick up supplies from my parents and pressed on to Pocklington, by the time the Howardian Hills came round my knees were not happy, and I was struggling to keep up with the group, by the time I got to Pocklington, I was finding it hard to keep the bike moving without my knees hurting so much I wanted to vomit - in particular, the transition from free wheeling to pedalling was absolute agony. I decided to sleep on it, and try them in the morning. I tried riding round the car park at about 0415 in the morning, I really couldn't do it - it was still agony to transition from pedalling to free wheeling and it gave me that sick feeling to do it. I decided that whilst I might be able to press on to Louth, maybe even further - there wasn't 350km left in my knees on that ride - so fearing that I would do permanent damage - I got on the train at York and went to Leeds to sleep before heading back to London.

On a set of knees that couldn't do 150km 10th July, I did 1100km all told (including the ride of shame to the train station). I'm overall happy with what I got done, I still had a minuscule amount of time in hand when I packed (due to sleeping). My next step is saving up some cash for a bike fit, and training for PBP. I aim to be back for 2021, when I can ride it as my 40th birthday present to myself.

[mattc]

2. if LEL gets a reputation  as being a Hard Ride all the better

Going off track (again), do those who've done both think LEL is harder than PBP? I thought PBP2015 was harder than LEL 2013.
I did Mille Cymru 2 in 2014, and Mille Pennines 1 in 2016. I found the Pennines with 10 AAA points harder than the Cymru with 16. Am I just getting it wrong? I've been at a similar weight and perceived fitness at all the events.

(hey, we've more-or-less ridden* the same events!)

LEL vs PBP: apples/oranges. LEL route is harder, but the reduced min speed helps balance that. Weather is more significant on both.

MC1k vs MP1k; assuming the Mille Pennines didn't change much for this year, I'd say  it is a MUCh harder route than the welsh ride. I think the AAA points are an oddity for this one - I believe the actual climbing figures and the gradients involved will show the Welsh ride to be less hard.

With the same weather, both the "hilly" UK 1000s are much harder than LEL.


_{*well, started anyway ...}

[StevieB]

...Many folk limit their riding speed on narrow corners with poor sightlines and on crap surfaces. ...

You make it sound like a bad thing!

I know it is more efficient to maintain momentum, and that works out fine 99.9% of the time, but sooner or later...

[mmmmartin]

the great drop-out rate debate

But Rob, is it a debate? Isn't the rate the same as usual but artificially inflated by riders entering the 100 hour group to get a place, then 60 per cent of them are DNF because they couldn't get round within 100 hours? The only question really is whether creating the 100 hour group then sending it off earlier than the "mere mortals" does in fact achieve its aim - to spread the demand on controls. If it did that then it's a great way to increase the event income that can then be spent on the riders.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

...Many folk limit their riding speed on narrow corners with poor sightlines and on crap surfaces. ...

You make it sound like a bad thing!

I know it is more efficient to maintain momentum, and that works out fine 99.9% of the time, but sooner or later...

It is a bad thing (for finishing in time) when they are crawling round at jogging pace instead of averaging their expected 20-25 kph. Many folk are overly conservative at the slightest hint of poor conditions but that is their own choice. This is a thread discussing reasons for DNFing.

[StevieB]

Got ya.

(& yes, I see accidents are listed as a reason.)

[vorsprung]

latest stats seem to suggest a 43% DNF rate

[eddum]

the great drop-out rate debate

But Rob, is it a debate? Isn't the rate the same as usual but artificially inflated by riders entering the 100 hour group to get a place, then 60 per cent of them are DNF because they couldn't get round within 100 hours? The only question really is whether creating the 100 hour group then sending it off earlier than the "mere mortals" does in fact achieve its aim - to spread the demand on controls. If it did that then it's a great way to increase the event income that can then be spent on the riders.

....but you had to have secured an entry before choosing your start time (100/116hr cut off).. so you couldn't enter as 100hr just to get a place.

[Planet X Paul]

you need to add lack of sleep

Yes, absolutely.  Was a major factor for me as there were times I was in danger of crashing due to falling asleep on the bike.  Additionally, I lost time by having to take unplanned sleep stops at Alston instead of pushing on to Moffat.  Also at Eskdalemuir when I really wanted to push on to Brampton, but just spent 2 hours shivering instead of sleeping, and had to sleep at Brampton to catch up.

Just how do others combat sleep dep, as I find that I simply cannot focus on the road ahead, and it just blurs and swims about in front of me, and I have no option but to stop.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

I have to sleep before it reaches that stage. Spending an hour or more asleep at the right time saves heaps more time than continuing on the road for too long. Unfortunately, when up against the time limit, it is very tempting to just push on a bit further because you "can't afford the time stopped".

[jsabine]

Just how do others combat sleep dep, as I find that I simply cannot focus on the road ahead, and it just blurs and swims about in front of me, and I have no option but to stop.

By stopping and sleeping, preferably before actual deprivation kicks in. Last time round, I lost a fair bit of time due to not recognising the problem, and trying to push on through it. This time I was much readier to stop and sleep, on the basis that I'd be much fitter to continue after a rest.

Sleep - or at least shut-eye - this time was roughly:
3 1/2 hours at Louth
3 1/2 hours at Alston
3 hours at Eskdalemuir
30 mins in a field before Alston
1 hour at Pocklington
20 mins on the dining room floor at Louth
15 mins in a bus shelter after Cambridge
1 hour at Great Easton

The field and the bus shelter both paid great dividends in terms of extra speed and enthusiasm after a bit of kip.

[mattc]

As a bloke called Steve Abraham wrote:

"The best way to stay awake is to get some sleep."

[αdαmsκι]

Just how do others combat sleep dep,

By riding fast enough and with minimal faff to bank enough time to get decent time off the bike.

Here's the amount of time off the bike I spent each evening. (All this time wasn't spent actually sleeping because of time spent showering, eating etc.)

Night 1: Hull West Premium Inn for 6½ hours
Night 2: Annandale Waters Service Station Days Inn for 7 hours
Night 3: Alston (managed to get a room in the Youth Hostel rather than space in the school) for 8 hours
Night 4: Louth control for 7½ hours