e-brevets what's the deal?

[drossall]

Dave is making a change so that the app tells you if the location E-Brevet has is more than 30 seconds old.  Thus it should be obvious if it’s just using old location data and you need to wait , or you’re genuinely at the wrong location, or your phone gps is fantasising about where it is.

Edit - Just looked at App Store and that change to E-Brevet was released last week.

I've not had the chance to try the new version yet. However, when I had issues with being "in the wrong place" on the old one, I found that opening Google Maps helped. My theory was that that app had a way of kicking the GPS receiver into updating itself - go back to the e-brevet app, and that would be working too.

Or, of course, it could just be that swapping between apps consumed the vital 30 seconds needed to let a position update happen anyway

[Lightning Phil]

It’ll depend on the phone. On my iPhone 8 it has the right location as soon as I open E-Brevet at control location. Anyway you’ll get a chance to test new version on your phone, a week on Sunday

[LateStarter]

I noticed there is a RUSA ebrevet as well, given they all “just” replace a mostly common format brevet card it would be a pity if more sharing was not possible, the RUSA one is open source with IOS & Android versions, all the user doco here, https://github.com/ctnadovich/ebrevet , a lengthy inclusiveness discussion previously posited that younger members might believe that if there “wasn’t an app for it” then it did not exist?

[bhoot]

I spotted the RUSA one on Android, not many downloads yet by the look of it, seems to have been around since earlier this year. Maybe more on IOS.

[Philip Whiteman]

I won't repeat the comments by organisers experienced with using e-brevet for their events but here are a couple of additional points.   I was an early adopter of e-brevet.

X Rated events

Here they really are wonderful.  E-brevet dispenses with the requirement for participants to post their brevet cards to the organiser and for the organiser to post them back again.   

Expectations

My participants appear to expect e-brevet at events, though a few remain avidly wedded to cards as the primary form for proof of passage, don't trust e-brevet or simply like cards.  There are stories of riders actively avoiding events the don't offer e-brevet or at the very least, moans about organisers that don't provide the option.

Areas for improvement

One niggle I have, is the very final function required of a rider, where the 'upload' of the e-brevet is hidden within settings.  I have to constantly remind riders to access settings and upload once they have completed the event.  Many understandably believe that the process is finished when the click arrivee and it turns green. 

[FifeingEejit]

As a rider I've found the biggest limitation being control location accuracy.
I used it on 2 events and found that despite being at the control as detailed on the brevet card/route sheet the GPS location was comparably nonsense.

I realize that's an event configuration problem, but...

The most obvious limiter for me as an organizer is I like to have everything sorted before leaving the event HQ or within minutes of getting home if it's outside.
It's quite easy to collect brevet cards and fill in a paper finish list and do the time maths while sitting at a table then batter it into aukweb when I get home.
I'm not buying a laptop or tablet and mobile hotspot tethering for the sake of 3 or 4 events a year, if it was fully integrated with the aukweb (or at least replacement) finish list system then maybe.

[drossall]

As a rider I've found the biggest limitation being control location accuracy.
I used it on 2 events and found that despite being at the control as detailed on the brevet card/route sheet the GPS location was comparably nonsense.

That sounds like the issue that was being referred to above, in posts such as this:

Older phones with old versions of Android / iOS can have problems with E-Brevet not waking up the phone’s hardware gps chip.  In those cases, opening something like Google maps or OS locate to wake-up the gps can be successful to update current location.

I used to have an old android phone when I first started testing E-Brevet for my perms, and cancelling and trying again was order of the day, if too keen as soon as I reached a control. With my newer iPhone 8 (but latest iOS) it’s generally up to date with location as soon as reach control.

Dave is making a change so that the app tells you if the location E-Brevet has is more than 30 seconds old.  Thus it should be obvious if it’s just using old location data and you need to wait , or you’re genuinely at the wrong location, or your phone gps is fantasising about where it is.

Edit - Just looked at App Store and that change to E-Brevet was released last week.

[Philip D]

The problem is not always with the phone. I have also done 2 ebrevet events and it was a failure on both of them because some control(s) could not be registered despite being at the correct control (and it wasn't just me, everybody else on the event was affected too).

After it happened the second time I emailed the address I found on the AUK website with some queries and suggestions ("can we have a map showing where the points have actually been set?"). The problem was simply that the organiser had put the ebrevet point in the wrong location (I think it was about 7km out!), this was despite the UI that they use to set the point having a map visualization that they can use to check the position.

[pineapple bod]

"can we have a map showing where the points have actually been set?"

You can do this at https://eb.audax.uk/events/C and https://eb.audax.uk/events/P

Beware that if you download the ebrevet early, and the organiser then changes the control locations, your app won't pick up the changes.  You need to download it again.

[bhoot]

One niggle I have, is the very final function required of a rider, where the 'upload' of the e-brevet is hidden within settings.  I have to constantly remind riders to access settings and upload once they have completed the event.  Many understandably believe that the process is finished when the click arrivee and it turns green.

An auto-upload feature is on the list for development! It has been requested a few times and should be doable. Obviously it will only work when the rider has connectivity at the finish, but I would expect that will be true in 90%+ cases.

[Philip D]

"can we have a map showing where the points have actually been set?"

You can do this at https://eb.audax.uk/events/C and https://eb.audax.uk/events/P

Beware that if you download the ebrevet early, and the organiser then changes the control locations, your app won't pick up the changes.  You need to download it again.

That's good to know. I think in the future I will download it the night before.

[John Stonebridge]

As an organiser - my last event offered ebrevet and 2 riders used it.  I'm not sure Id offer it again until I was convinced its use was going to justify the effort involved (of course if I offer / encourage ebrevet its likely to induce demand).  I boobed on this event by failing to move an info control to its correct location a few miles away when doing the final route check a couple of weeks before the event.  I had updated the AUK website, the GPS track and the hard copy route sheeet and simply forgot.  One other control just seemed not to work for riders using ebrevet but they had POP via an info question anyway. 

When I first started organising events (cue Hovis music) I just had to make sure the brevet card and route sheet tied up. 

Today most riders will use gps as their primary navigation and most of them will have a hard copy route sheet as a back up.  Both (but especially the gps) have to be perfect for the whole route.  Both (but especially the hard copy route sheet) are a non trivial effort.

The thing I like about ebrevet is that it addresses the issue I often experience as a rider on calendar events where I'm forced to use a particular control location to get a hard copy proof of passage and - in my experience - these locations tend to be those where its more likely to take ages to get POP.  In turn this can make the difference between finishing in daylight or in extremis, within the time limit.  I know that orgs will want to support a particular premises but its often noticeable that said premises appear taken aback that the long distance cyclists that they knew were going to turn up are (a) hungry and (b) have an eye on the clock.  I have been known to take a photo at such locations and plead my case at the event finish.   

However, I find that AUKs newly found (and welcome) stringency over event distance integrity means that my events now feature a greater proportion of info controls where riders aren't forced to hang about if they don't want to.  Of course I'll always tell riders that I'll accept hard copy POP in lieu of an info control if its available.  In the last couple of years I've found myself actively choosing to have info controls over traditional POP on my events for this very purpose and have instead mentioned suggested eateries in the rider briefing and I've no doubt it helps avoid bottlenecks.   All of which makes the attraction of ebrevet for my events less than might otherwise be the case. 

Lots of riders seem to have mastered the art of getting "drive by" POP on info controls using their phones so don't even have to stop.     

While I've never used e brevet as a rider I reckon I'd be more likely to use it as a rider than an organiser, but I wouldn't specifically seek out / avoid events on that basis.


   

[Flâneur]

I know that orgs will want to support a particular premises but its often noticeable that said premises appear taken aback that the long distance cyclists that they knew were going to turn up are (a) hungry and (b) have an eye on the clock.  I have been known to take a photo at such locations and plead my case at the event finish.   

One cafe control of my experience (nominally a cycling cafe and used on a few audaxes) switched to Stripe card payments and therefore no physical receipts anymore, just email ones 

[Lightning Phil]

The problem is not always with the phone. I have also done 2 ebrevet events and it was a failure on both of them because some control(s) could not be registered despite being at the correct control (and it wasn't just me, everybody else on the event was affected too).

After it happened the second time I emailed the address I found on the AUK website with some queries and suggestions ("can we have a map showing where the points have actually been set?"). The problem was simply that the organiser had put the ebrevet point in the wrong location (I think it was about 7km out!), this was despite the UI that they use to set the point having a map visualization that they can use to check the position.

One of the things I do on my pre event route checks is test I’ve setup e-brevet correctly. As well as checking info answers are still there, I do a quick tap at each control in E-Brevet. In fact I was doing that on a route check today.

All my events, including perms have offered e brevet for some time.  I’d say take up is up to about 80% on some events now.

[FifeingEejit]

As a rider I've found the biggest limitation being control location accuracy.
I used it on 2 events and found that despite being at the control as detailed on the brevet card/route sheet the GPS location was comparably nonsense.

That sounds like the issue that was being referred to above, in posts such as this:

Older phones with old versions of Android / iOS can have problems with E-Brevet not waking up the phone’s hardware gps chip.  In those cases, opening something like Google maps or OS locate to wake-up the gps can be successful to update current location.

I used to have an old android phone when I first started testing E-Brevet for my perms, and cancelling and trying again was order of the day, if too keen as soon as I reached a control. With my newer iPhone 8 (but latest iOS) it’s generally up to date with location as soon as reach control.

Dave is making a change so that the app tells you if the location E-Brevet has is more than 30 seconds old.  Thus it should be obvious if it’s just using old location data and you need to wait , or you’re genuinely at the wrong location, or your phone gps is fantasising about where it is.

Edit - Just looked at App Store and that change to E-Brevet was released last week.

In one case I was very definitely in the town on the brevet card both physically and on GPS mapping, and in the other I was standing right next to the far msign, both physically and on GPS mapping.

In the first case when I asked someone who had ebrevet working they responded with "oh yeah it was 3 miles back that way did you not read the instructions", well yeah I did but I'm not going to remember that the eBrevet control is in a completely different location from what it's called on everything else.

If the eBrevet controls are not at the same location as the event route sheet and brevet card and instructions, then what's the point?

Other than that I was quite happy with it, and saved me a 2nd trip into a co-op after I forgot to get a reciept. (oh and also at another control where the cafe recommended was closed and there wasn't much else around it)


In the second case, it's been mentioned above by the Organiser.
I actually had it on 2 of them on that event and it seemed to be a genuine error at the time.
On the second case I spent a fair whack of time trying to figure out where on earth it was telling me the control was 5km north east, follow road with no junctions, 5km South West EH? I'm heading south west. Turn the corner and suddenly I'm at the junction with the info requested. Probably an accuracy issue?
I packed that ride in the end for other reasons.


Having to stop at Info's to faff with the phone is another pain, I can photo or memorize most info's until I feel like stopping.
But I keep my camera considerably more accessible than my phone... unless I forget my Wahoo and have the phone screaming instructions at me from the cross bar panniers.

I did consider it for my events, and may consider it for Och Hills since the info's are in the arse end of nowhere.
But then I've got a hall finish so can cover all but the submission of results there if I don't.

[Feanor]

Perhaps I'm being a luddite here, but why do we even need an App for Everything electronic Proof of Passage?

Why can't we just use GPS track uploads the same as we can do with DIY Perms?
It's all in place, mostly automated, and it Just Works.

It seems an un-necessary additional task for orgs to have to deal with to support it.
All the Org should need to do is upload the 'Planned' GPX to have the others validated against.

<shrug>

[GdS]

Perhaps I'm being a luddite here, but why do we even need an App for Everything electronic Proof of Passage?

Why can't we just use GPS track uploads the same as we can do with DIY Perms?
It's all in place, mostly automated, and it Just Works.

It seems an un-necessary additional task for orgs to have to deal with to support it.
All the Org should need to do is upload the 'Planned' GPX to have the others validated against.

short answer, a lot of extra work,

long answer;

I am a perm and ECE organiser who validates almost everything via gpx. I get several of either a week. I need to save each file to a local folder on my PC usually one for each rider as the files are often just called eg "Morning Ride". I then need to validate each track against whatever software works. I have an old AUK thing that shows distance riding time AAA etc but no map, so would need to upload every track onto RWG (my chosen web resource, Strava etc also work). Then manually tick off each rider against the paper start sheet which is required for those that do it the old way.

and you would still have to retain the paper cards manually enter the info answers and post them back to the rider which negates the whole premise of instant valdation (no completed paper brevet card equals no vaildation)

meanwhile back at the finish of the calendar event my helper has no web access, no means of checking anyone's track and is trying to tease info answers out of riders on the paper cards. Having to grapple with e-brevets just adds to all this extra work when we are trying to make sure everyone's finished or at least accounted for (yes I care that riders get back safely from my events even if they don't finish). I just want to get everyone back get the completed finish list submit to the website and then go back to doing the everyday jobs at home I've missed up to the end of the event. Adding gpx validation quadruples the extra work, just so riders don't have to write down eg a distance on a signpost?

have you ever organised a calendar event?

[Feanor]

Perhaps I'm being a luddite here, but why do we even need an App for Everything electronic Proof of Passage?

Why can't we just use GPS track uploads the same as we can do with DIY Perms?
It's all in place, mostly automated, and it Just Works.

It seems an un-necessary additional task for orgs to have to deal with to support it.
All the Org should need to do is upload the 'Planned' GPX to have the others validated against.

short answer, a lot of extra work,
I need to save each file ...
[...]
have you ever organised a calendar event?

No, and that's why I asked the question.
Thanks for the detailed response.

Why are people sending you files to deal with?
I think I have always used a supplied link to submit my tracklogs directly to the robot.

But my memory may be faulty: I didn't ride any Audax this year for Reasons.
I now do seem to recall sending GPX files...

[John Stonebridge]

Is there anything that would actually prevent an organiser running a calendar event just now that used only gps based POP and had no brevet cards (where the organiser and participants were happy with this approach)?   

 

[GdS]

Why are people sending you files to deal with?
I think I have always used a supplied link to submit my tracklogs directly to the robot.

They sometimes do but (in the case of ECEs) most complain that the link doesn't work. Even then it's just a link, I still need to download save to an individual folder and submit the track through the validation software.

I can't get this to work any more

http://www.aukweb.net/routevalidator/

[Philip Whiteman]

Is there anything that would actually prevent an organiser running a calendar event just now that used only gps based POP and had no brevet cards (where the organiser and participants were happy with this approach)?   

 

AUK require us to make brevet cards available for calendar events. However there is a dispensation for permanents due to the lack of available paper based PoP opportunities becoming an increasing problem in some locations.

Cards are not something I would wish to see withdrawn as many entrants remain wedded to them.  Others like to use them as a memento.  I would approximate that one third of my entrants still use cards.

[GdS]

Is there anything that would actually prevent an organiser running a calendar event just now that used only gps based POP and had no brevet cards (where the organiser and participants were happy with this approach)?   

 

That's one for the AUK committee; it would certainly save time with brevet cards and even a detailed route sheet not to mention saving an actual finish controller. It might even work out less admin but there is still the problem of people who complete the route but don't send their track as they are not bothered about validation.

My understanding is that controls (including infos) would still need to be defined as that's the basis of AUK rides and contained within the rules, not just following a track.

I agree with Philip most riders are happy with brevet cards and indeed some do not use GPS so would be excluded,

[alfapete]

There's an awful lot of negativity about e-brevet here and I really can't understand why. As an organiser it adds, perhaps, ten minutes of work setting it up. At the end a two second glance at the rider's app and you can attach a validation sticker to the brevet card - job done (oh, and note the rider's name). I'm not sure where all the perceived extra admin is.

A third of riders on my recent event used it and plenty more were interested but hadn't quite taken the plunge so it's definitely here to stay. As a rider I love it, and it's actually very simple to hit the button on the move to check in at an info control, just like you might take a photo (FifeingEejit, you might be in a minority of one if your camera is more accessible than your phone).

If the organiser has not set the location of the controls correctly then that's another thing, but not the fault of the app.

[John Stonebridge]

There's an awful lot of negativity about e-brevet here and I really can't understand why. As an organiser it adds, perhaps, ten minutes of work setting it up. At the end a two second glance at the rider's app and you can attach a validation sticker to the brevet card - job done (oh, and note the rider's name). I'm not sure where all the perceived extra admin is.

A third of riders on my recent event used it and plenty more were interested but hadn't quite taken the plunge so it's definitely here to stay. As a rider I love it, and it's actually very simple to hit the button on the move to check in at an info control, just like you might take a photo (FifeingEejit, you might be in a minority of one if your camera is more accessible than your phone).

If the organiser has not set the location of the controls correctly then that's another thing, but not the fault of the app.

That's good to hear.  I'll give it a try on at least the first of my two events in 2024 - this event is likely to feature a small field and its an X rated event where I'll be riding as  well so I know at least one rider who'll use it. 

[alfapete]

That's good to hear.  I'll give it a try on at least the first of my two events in 2024 - this event is likely to feature a small field and its an X rated event where I'll be riding as  well so I know at least one rider who'll use it.

I did make a point of promoting it to the riders in the pre-event messaging so they were aware that it was available and where to find it.