Further or faster, which is better for us?

[toekneep]

Mrs. TKP and I have embarked on short evening rides in order to get fitter. We are not interested in anything competitive like TT but we want to be able to do longer rides without necessarily spending longer in the saddle. At the moment we are comfortable with 100k rides and can complete them in audax time. It would be nice to build up to 150k audaxes without significantly increasing the time it takes. We tend to ride at about 12mph at present, much faster than we used to but still rather slow.

I have picked out a short circuit that has a 3/4 mile warm up to a set of lights and 7.5miles of country lanes without any significant hold ups for junctions, lights etc. then the 3/4 mile ride home to warm down. The question is, is it better to keep doing this and trying to improve our speed, or would it be better to keep increasing the distance? This is only the evening thing so we only have an hour at the most to spare. It would be quite easy to extend the circuit to ten miles, is this enough?

We will still do longer rides most weekends.

Thanks in advance.

[hellymedic]

I would suggest a maximum of two fast rides per week and 'long, slow distance' / recovery rides the other days, to try to train your fat burning.
Have one (at least) 'no cycling' day per week.
I used my commutes to train me up for audaxes this way.

[Wowbagger]

I claim no expertise in this area, although I am riding faster than I used.

When I resumed cycling, in March 2006, my normal 16-mile loop would take me more than 1h 30m. Gradually, fitness improved and the time came down.

My first 100k audax got me in bang on the wire, in a state of total exhaustion. That was almost 2 years ago. Since then I have completed a few 200s and had trouble with the time, partly because of faffage/eating. My best I completed with about 30 minutes to spare, and I wasted time with a puncture.

My last couple of 100ks have been completed with an hour or more to spare. I find that my Mercian is quicker than the Thorn, but the Thorn's fatter tyres give me more confidence.

On the Mercian, I once completed my normal 16 mile loop in 58 minutes, but I was breathing very hard and covered in sweat at the end of it.

When I did the Dun Run, which was only a smidgin short of 200k, I did it in about 11 hours total.

I suppose what I am saying is that you should aim to knock time off your basic ride and do longer ones and try to keep the time down.

I'm doing a hilly 200k in a couple of weeks. I'll probably take the Mercian on that.

[border-rider]

Both

You have two targets: going faster and going further

Going faster you can train by riding your circuit faster, but also by doing some intervals - ie sprinting for a minute or two (to the top of the hill, the next junction) and then recovering

To go further (less time in controls, ability to bounce controls or to make the longer gaps between controls on longer rides) you need to work on long steady distance.  10 miles is a bit short for that but if you do it hungry - before breakfast or evening meal - it will benefit you

So a mix of

Fast as you can go round the circuit
Reasonable pace with sprints & recovery
Slow, steady & hungry

[toekneep]

Thanks peeps, we do ride before our evening meal so we have go one thing right. I was also thinking that if we can stretch the time out to an hour it might be interesting to ride away from home for half an hour and note where we get to before returning via the same route. That way we could measure progress by hopefully getting further and further in the hour without actuall racing. Just a steady increase in pace.

[Jacomus]

Personally I think one of the biggest barriers to LSD speed is a lack of familiarity with very high heart rates, caused by steep hills. Plus LSD is very dependent on the riders ability to ride at Efficient Cruising Speed^TM

Hitting a big hill will push your HR right up and tire out your muscles - I like to practice climbing steep hills a) Balls on the table - stand up and attack the hill until you think you can't go on, then force yourself to keep going. Then after the hill go straight to your cruising speed - no freewheeling! b) Balls on the chair - attack the hill with the granny ring, spin up it as fast as possible then go straight to cruising speed.

Once you get used to 'dismissing' high HR blips and continuing on afterwards, I find I am better able to deal with climbing hills at a more sensible pace, and keeping strong after.

Efficient Cruising Speed^TM - The speed that the bike sings along and you are cruising effectively in your comfort zone. For me this is at around 68% MHR, easy pressure on the pedals, easy breathing. I try and stay in this zone regardless of the topography, so sometimes that is cruising at 24mph and sometimes it goes down to 12mph against a headwind - but I can do it all day(ish)

[border-rider]

Personally I think one of the biggest barriers to LSD speed is a lack of familiarity with very high heart rates, caused by steep hills. Plus LSD is very dependent on the riders ability to ride at Efficient Cruising Speed^TM

Hitting a big hill will push your HR right up and tire out your muscles - I like to practice climbing steep hills a) Balls on the table - stand up and attack the hill until you think you can't go on, then force yourself to keep going. Then after the hill go straight to your cruising speed - no freewheeling! b) Balls on the chair - attack the hill with the granny ring, spin up it as fast as possible then go straight to cruising speed.

Once you get used to 'dismissing' high HR blips and continuing on afterwards, I find I am better able to deal with climbing hills at a more sensible pace, and keeping strong after.

Efficient Cruising Speed^TM - The speed that the bike sings along and you are cruising effectively in your comfort zone. For me this is at around 68% MHR, easy pressure on the pedals, easy breathing. I try and stay in this zone regardless of the topography, so sometimes that is cruising at 24mph and sometimes it goes down to 12mph against a headwind - but I can do it all day(ish)

Agreed

Your "Efficient Cruising Speed" is what i do for LSD.  I don't exceed 70-75% max HRM and it is pretty comfortable

The hills thing cuts both ways - if you are doing interval training then your options a) works; if you're going for a fast but constant pace, I guess it is b).  But for LSD rides I'd slow right down and crawl up the hills to keep the HR at < 75% max.

[Jacomus]

Personally I think one of the biggest barriers to LSD speed is a lack of familiarity with very high heart rates, caused by steep hills. Plus LSD is very dependent on the riders ability to ride at Efficient Cruising Speed^TM

Hitting a big hill will push your HR right up and tire out your muscles - I like to practice climbing steep hills a) Balls on the table - stand up and attack the hill until you think you can't go on, then force yourself to keep going. Then after the hill go straight to your cruising speed - no freewheeling! b) Balls on the chair - attack the hill with the granny ring, spin up it as fast as possible then go straight to cruising speed.

Once you get used to 'dismissing' high HR blips and continuing on afterwards, I find I am better able to deal with climbing hills at a more sensible pace, and keeping strong after.

Efficient Cruising Speed^TM - The speed that the bike sings along and you are cruising effectively in your comfort zone. For me this is at around 68% MHR, easy pressure on the pedals, easy breathing. I try and stay in this zone regardless of the topography, so sometimes that is cruising at 24mph and sometimes it goes down to 12mph against a headwind - but I can do it all day(ish)

Agreed

Your "Efficient Cruising Speed" is what i do for LSD.  I don't exceed 70-75% max HRM and it is pretty comfortable

The hills thing cuts both ways - if you are doing interval training then your options a) works; if you're going for a fast but constant pace, I guess it is b).  But for LSD rides I'd slow right down and crawl up the hills to keep the HR at < 75% max.

I do a mix of both, if the hill has a long steepish descent I tend to crawl up it and freewheel the other side with fairly unpunished legs. If the hill doesn't really fall away on the other side, I give it a bit of extra effort because I will be spinning easily and cruising on the other side - recovering the legs.

I find the Very Worst Thing for sustaining performance if give it some up a hill, and freewheel for a good while on the other side.

[alan]

I think you should do less riding & put more weight on so that I have a chance to keep up

[LEE]

+1 for both


If you want to lose weight then ride long distances at a comfortable speed.

Doing a 150 in the same time as a 100 is a tough target.  Raising average speed by even 1mph is quite significant.

Increasing distance AND speed is a double whammy, I'd make sure I could get round 150km first, it's not a linear graph you know.  The final 50km could/will be much harder than the first or second 50km. 

If you manage to get around a 150km at your normal cruising speed I wouldn't be surprised if your short-distance speed went up as a result.

Good luck.

[Chris S]

There are two experiments I'd like to try sometime.

1. Just how far can I ride at 95% Max HR?
2. Just how far can I ride on an empty stomach before I bonk?

The answer to (2) is "At least 100km" as I've done a pre-breakfast ride that far before. I've also ridden over 220km into a 300km audax before eating anything since breakfast.

[gonzo]

Earlier this year, I was struggling to do 50 miles at 15mph. 3 months later I did 218 miles in 12 hours.

My training was 3 rides per week;
1) ride out to a TT, race for 10 miles un-interupted at top speed, ride back
2) as above
3) long ride at 75% max HR. Increase distance by 10 miles per week. This didn't involve cafe stops.

I had at least one day of rest between each.

Rides #1&2 increase your speed (both top end and at LSD pace)
Ride #3 increases the length of time you can ride for

[toekneep]

+1 for both


If you want to lose weight then ride long distances at a comfortable speed.

Doing a 150 in the same time as a 100 is a tough target.  Raising average speed by even 1mph is quite significant.

Increasing distance AND speed is a double whammy, I'd make sure I could get round 150km first, it's not a linear graph you know.  The final 50km could/will be much harder than the first or second 50km. 

If you manage to get around a 150km at your normal cruising speed I wouldn't be surprised if your short-distance speed went up as a result.

Good luck.

Mrs. TKP might be happy to lose a couple of pounds (but she doesn't need to) whereas I would be in danger of disappearing down a drain cover if I lost any.

My OP might have been misleading. It isn't a case of doing a 150 in the same time as a 100 but more a question of increasing our average speed so that a 150 doesn't take 50% longer than a 100. We increased the distance to ten miles tonight and still maintained our average speed at about the same as for the 7.5 miles so that is promising.