Jeremy Vine posts video of angry driver threatening to knock him out

[Veloman]

I was nearly T-boned this morning and as I shouted "whoa" I had foul mouth abuse even though I was doing nothing wrong other than being on the road and gave a verbal warning to alert the driver who had the windows down.  (Going along a main road and a car turning right, car before him turned in front of me, no problem, and he assumed he was OK to follow)

I wish I had been wearing a camera as it might have come in useful had I been knocked off.

I have little time for Vine as some of his radio call-ins appear to be designed to antagonise and generate conflict, which I assume he considers good radio.  However, in this case I fully support his actions and grateful it has highlighted how shabbily cyclists can get treated.  Very pleased that legal action appears to being taken against the driver.

There will also be motorists that believe cyclists have no place on the roads and are a nuisance and nothing will change their minds.  Hopefully, the video from Vine will show the other side of the coin and inform the non-cycling public why some cyclist do what they do.  But no excuses for other cyclists doing something they should not (jumping red lights etc)

[Hot Flatus]

Like I said, I have mixed feelings on Vine's particular example. The holding hands comparison is a false equivalence. I am all for an unapologetic holding the lane when out on a bike down the kinds of streets shown in that video. What I am less sure of is whether high profile coverage of filmed confrontation is helpful. It raises the issue but also frames it in the context of conflict.

But there is a conflict. And it is pretty one-sided.

What the video highlights is the instant, irrational and violent behaviour of a driver compared to the calm, unthreatening behaviour of a cyclist.

Idiots (and she is one) will continue to be idiots. But is there not a group in between who may pause and consider their own behaviour in the light of seeing this video? At the very least they get to see a cyclist explain that he was merely trying to stay safe, and the lack of understanding of the driver resulted in death threats and violence.

Surely some viewers would find her behaviour repugnant and reflect on the own desire not to behave in the same manner.

[red marley]

You (Ian, Peter and Flatus) may be right. I certainly hope you are in terms of it having a positive effect on some people's behaviour. I struggle between the instinctive wish to call out poor behaviour when it is observed (and this case was surely an example of that) and the picture painted that riding on our roads is an endless battle risking life and limb. We know that only a tiny fraction of potential journeys are actually ridden and by a tiny fraction of people. We also know that fear of injury and death forms a big part of the narrative that dissuades many from cycling and that fear, while real, is disproportionate in comparison to the actual risks.

Generally I think the approach exemplified by Boardman of campaigning for big investment in appropriate infrastructure and a positive non-confrontational position on behaviour change by motor vehicle drivers, is more effective than the heat generated by highlighting individual instances of angry conflict.

[ian]

I don't entirely disagree, I've long since given up arguing with drivers or reading the about such arguments. I think the tit-for-tat arguments are generally pointless. But in a case like this, were a perfectly ordinary person doing what ought to be a perfectly ordinary thing is assaulted on camera, I dunno, perhaps it ought to be seen because as a cyclist that kind of thing has become normal. And it shouldn't be normal.

[sg37409]

I don't think its normal to have that kind of shouting match /assault at all.

I'm with Jo on this.  I had reservations when he posted that footage. Polarizes the debate (helped by Jeremy Clarkson) and isn't the best way to get more patience and consideration from road users.   I can see the potential benefits as well as a big name celeb is shown to be out riding a bike as if its a normal thing to do.

Plenty of material there for his next phone in on "cyclists on our roads"

[mattc]

I think we're in danger of tripping over our own feet and good intentions here.

Are these people behaving dangerously and abusively? Check. So prosecute them, publicly shame them, whatever it takes.

"Conflict" implies two sides - this is more like assault, abuse, bullying. To use the comparison with homophobia:
It is only right and sensible to prosecute violent homophobic bullies. Any campaign that highlights the appaling behaviour of the bigoted few is also right and sensible.

And let's just be honest; we want to stop this aggression partly BECAUSE it puts people off riding. That doesn't change the fact that cycling is basically safe, and definitely good for you (despite the risks). We don't need to dance around the facts - the facts are on our side!

[Riggers]

^ Yep. And, I think, she's demonstrated admirably to the proper authorities, she should not be allowed on the road in charge of a vehicle.

[red marley]

Matt, I think you are responding to a point that hasn't been made. No one here has suggested that the driver's behaviour was in any way acceptable. It is a clear case of bullying and loss of emotional control that is both dangerous and unacceptable.

The question I posed was whether, tactically, raising the profile of incidents like this through sharing videos is an effective way of making roads a safer and more pleasant place to be. It's a tactic that is almost the raison d'etre of the Daily Mail and local papers throughout the country, that of highlighting something that will likely enrage its readership either through empathy with a victim of injustice or hatred of a perpetrator of an injustice. It is very effective in inducing an emotional response that we have had since childhood ("But he started it!"), but I question whether it actually makes things better in this particular context.

I am trying to imagine the group of people who run the risk of behaving like the car driver in that video. People whose anger is barely below the surface and who regard people riding on bikes as "you lot". After seeing that video would they really be persuaded to see sense? It seems unlikely to me as it forces the viewer to choose a side in a polarised argument in which they already feel a strong identity. Equally, the (overlapping) group of people who do not currently ride on roads out of fear of incident or simply the belief that riding on roads is not a very pleasant experience are hardly going to be persuaded that things aren't as bad as they think.

[red marley]

Here's an example of what I think is a more positive approach to changing driver behaviour. From the West Midlands Police Traffic Unit

https://trafficwmp.wordpress.com/2016/09/09/junction-malfunction-and-a-new-dawn/

In particular the section 'The Way Forward', although the tone of the whole piece is remarkably positive and evidence-based. It is refreshing (unfortunately) to see such a sensible approach from a large organisation with responsibility for road safety for all users. Good on you WMP.

[hatler]

She needs to be called on her behaviour, ideally without scaring the crap out of everyone who thinks riding a bike would be nice but won't, "because there are nutters out there".

Easy solution, let the police know, they pull in the miscreant and deal with it.

Except of course, they won't/don't.

[hatler]

Here's an example of what I think is a more positive approach to changing driver behaviour. From the West Midlands Police Traffic Unit

https://trafficwmp.wordpress.com/2016/09/09/junction-malfunction-and-a-new-dawn/

In particular the section 'The Way Forward', although the tone of the whole piece is remarkably positive and evidence-based. It is refreshing (unfortunately) to see such a sensible approach from a large organisation with responsibility for road safety for all users. Good on you WMP.

That is superb. Thank you. And a perfect riposte to my mildly negative post immediately above, but then I was thinking of the Met, and I haven't had the most brilliant experience of the Met thus far.

[toontra]

and I haven't had the most brilliant experience of the Met thus far.

You and me both.  When I was knocked off at speed by a car which subsequently destroyed my bike by riding over it as they fled the scene, the Met did absolutely nothing in spite of me spoon-feeding them a witness, reg number, etc.  They were reluctant even to take a statement, let alone attend the scene or take any action.

Until that attitude changes what hope is there.

[Jaded]

You need the legislators to understand that there is a problem. Only giving the police the videos will achieve this less well than having some high profile news stories.

[rob]

I'm going to give up having a word with drivers.   It's not like you're going to get an apology or admission of guilt.

You just get a foul mouthed tirade of ill-thought out words that have no basis in fact.   You can't reason with stupid or people that fundamentally believe they are right even when they're not.

[toontra]

I'm going to give up having a word with drivers.   It's not like you're going to get an apology or admission of guilt.

You just get a foul mouthed tirade of ill-thought out words that have no basis in fact.   You can't reason with stupid or people that fundamentally believe they are right even when they're not.

My experience is that their very initial response is to look guilty and maybe even say sorry, but this very soon (i.e. almost instantaneously) turns into defensiveness, excuses and then abuse.  It seems the "rational" part of the brain says the best form of defence is attack.

[rob]

I'm going to give up having a word with drivers.   It's not like you're going to get an apology or admission of guilt.

You just get a foul mouthed tirade of ill-thought out words that have no basis in fact.   You can't reason with stupid or people that fundamentally believe they are right even when they're not.

My experience is that their very initial response is to look guilty and maybe even say sorry, but this very soon (i.e. almost instantaneously) turns into defensiveness, excuses and then abuse.  It seems the "rational" part of the brain says the best form of defence is attack.

Tonight's was pretty close to home and quite nasty.  I gave up pretty quickly after phrases about reading the Highway Code and all you cyclists do is shout at motorists.   There's loads of decent responses and put-downs that you think of afterwards.

[Pickled Onion]

... all you cyclists do is shout at motorists.

It says a lot that their experience of driving is regularly having cyclists shout at them. Perhaps one day the penny will drop.

(I'm not suggesting shouting at drivers is a good thing, it's invariably a waste of time.)

[rob]

... all you cyclists do is shout at motorists.

It says a lot that their experience of driving is regularly having cyclists shout at them. Perhaps one day the penny will drop.

Another thing I should have thought of at the time.   Such is life.

[andyoxon]

Here's an example of what I think is a more positive approach to changing driver behaviour. From the West Midlands Police Traffic Unit

https://trafficwmp.wordpress.com/2016/09/09/junction-malfunction-and-a-new-dawn/

In particular the section 'The Way Forward', although the tone of the whole piece is remarkably positive and evidence-based. It is refreshing (unfortunately) to see such a sensible approach from a large organisation with responsibility for road safety for all users. Good on you WMP.

Looks like they've begun proceedings - 38 motorists apparently.
http://news.sky.com/story/motorists-face-prosecution-for-driving-too-close-to-cyclists-10579708

Perhaps other regional forces may give it a go; won't hold my breath on TVP adopting...

[Dtcman]

On an associated note, the video is of both forward and behind him. Does anyone know if that is a single helmet cam that's reording in both directions or has he just got 2 cams? I like the idea of a single cam.

[rogerzilla]

She's now been charged with various offences (including the untaxed car).

[Regulator]

Good.  Vine may be a tit but she's a danger on the road.

[spindrift]

People who don't tax their car are 35.2% more likely to yell stuff at cyclists about road tax.

[Steph]

She's now been charged with various offences (including the untaxed car).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-37641173

"We don't pay no road tax---er, I mean 'you'!"

I saw Vine's newer video yesterday, in which an unsighted car pulled straight out onto the road. Cue usual stupid comments, including one about "keeping a safe stopping distance". So let me get this right, Mr Moton: every time you approach a vehicle waiting to pull out from a side road you stop in order to "KASSD"? Ditto if there are pedestrians about?

[Redlight]

I saw Vine's newer video yesterday, in which an unsighted car pulled straight out onto the road. Cue usual stupid comments, including one about "keeping a safe stopping distance". So let me get this right, Mr Moton: every time you approach a vehicle waiting to pull out from a side road you stop in order to "KASSD"? Ditto if there are pedestrians about?

Brings to mind an occasion many years ago when I was riding along a main road quite happily at about 18mph when a British School of Motoring car drifted rather nervously out in front of me from a side road.  Cue hard braking and a lot of swearing.  As there was a set of lights, on red, some 50 feet from the junction I was able to have a word with the "instructor".  The conversation went along the following lines:

Me: did your pupil not see me?

Him: Yes

Me: And did you not see me?

Him:  Yes

Me: so why did you allow your pupil to pull out in front of me?

Him: Well, I thought you'd have enough time to stop.


I rest my case.