Author Topic: The 2016 "is your heating on yet?" thread  (Read 17725 times)

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: The 2016 "is your heating on yet?" thread
« Reply #150 on: 07 November, 2016, 02:59:58 pm »
My brand new (installed September 2016) combination boiler does not appear able to achieve our 'morning' (09.30-13.00) temperature of 22.5.
I am not happy.
It's not very cold outside.
We can get 21C, which is the chosen temperature for later in the day.

This is rather suboptimal...

(House is double-glazed, cavity wall and loft insulated.)

The old boiler ran hotter water and easily kept the house warm.

Re: The 2016 "is your heating on yet?" thread
« Reply #151 on: 07 November, 2016, 03:11:53 pm »
Our boiler decided to pack up on Saturday morning...  :(   Tame plumber is paying a visit tomorrow...

Re: The 2016 "is your heating on yet?" thread
« Reply #152 on: 07 November, 2016, 03:20:55 pm »
My brand new (installed September 2016) combination boiler does not appear able to achieve our 'morning' (09.30-13.00) temperature of 22.5.
I am not happy.
It's not very cold outside.
We can get 21C, which is the chosen temperature for later in the day.

This is rather suboptimal...

(House is double-glazed, cavity wall and loft insulated.)

The old boiler ran hotter water and easily kept the house warm.

There is presumably a boiler stat that can be adjusted upwards to increase the temperature of the circulating water in the heating?
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: The 2016 "is your heating on yet?" thread
« Reply #153 on: 07 November, 2016, 03:25:46 pm »
Its upper limit is a paltry 62.5C which is NOT enough!
Not enough for washing up and, it appears, not enough to warm the house with the current rads.
GGGGGRRRR!!!!

Aunt Maud

  • Le Flâneur.
Re: The 2016 "is your heating on yet?" thread
« Reply #154 on: 07 November, 2016, 04:30:42 pm »
There must be a higher upper limit to the water temp, 62.5 is rubbish.

What type of contraption is it ?

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: The 2016 "is your heating on yet?" thread
« Reply #155 on: 07 November, 2016, 04:39:59 pm »
A Worcester-Bosch combination boiler.
I didn't know of this 'feature' when I committed to the new boiler, nor was it explained to me.

I will search for literature.

I'm fairly sure partner tried to maximise temperature immediately after installation and this was tops. I was unhappy then but only have only really needed heating this week.

Partner is mooching about in dressing gown, looking sad. We've had soup for the first time in ages. I have turned up room thermostat and will await events.

Kim

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Re: The 2016 "is your heating on yet?" thread
« Reply #156 on: 07 November, 2016, 05:39:36 pm »
The better-to-heat-one-room-than-the-whole-house fan heater has now been officially deployed.

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: The 2016 "is your heating on yet?" thread
« Reply #157 on: 07 November, 2016, 06:10:37 pm »
A Worcester-Bosch combination boiler.
I didn't know of this 'feature' when I committed to the new boiler, nor was it explained to me.

I will search for literature.

I'm fairly sure partner tried to maximise temperature immediately after installation and this was tops. I was unhappy then but only have only really needed heating this week.

Partner is mooching about in dressing gown, looking sad. We've had soup for the first time in ages. I have turned up room thermostat and will await events.

Is there a bypass loop close to the boiler?
This will be a pipe with a valve, which basically short-circuits the flow and return, to allow a flow path in the event that all other radiators are shut off.

If the bypass loop is too much open, then hot water returns to the boiler straight away, and it shuts down because it thinks things are hot enough.
The boiler will then short-cycle.
Cure is to shut down the bypass loop to absolute minimum, directing flow out to the radiators.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: The 2016 "is your heating on yet?" thread
« Reply #158 on: 07 November, 2016, 06:29:40 pm »
A Worcester-Bosch combination boiler.
I didn't know of this 'feature' when I committed to the new boiler, nor was it explained to me.

I will search for literature.

I'm fairly sure partner tried to maximise temperature immediately after installation and this was tops. I was unhappy then but only have only really needed heating this week.

Partner is mooching about in dressing gown, looking sad. We've had soup for the first time in ages. I have turned up room thermostat and will await events.

Is there a bypass loop close to the boiler?
This will be a pipe with a valve, which basically short-circuits the flow and return, to allow a flow path in the event that all other radiators are shut off.

If the bypass loop is too much open, then hot water returns to the boiler straight away, and it shuts down because it thinks things are hot enough.
The boiler will then short-cycle.
Cure is to shut down the bypass loop to absolute minimum, directing flow out to the radiators.

I can ask partner to investigate.
I'm still miffed at system being designed to run so cool.

Aunt Maud

  • Le Flâneur.
Re: The 2016 "is your heating on yet?" thread
« Reply #159 on: 07 November, 2016, 06:44:11 pm »
It's probably how they achieve their high energy rating.

If it's a Greenstar, I think the highest DHW output temp is 65ºC although the CH should be able to go to around 80ºC.

Aunt Maud

  • Le Flâneur.
Re: The 2016 "is your heating on yet?" thread
« Reply #160 on: 08 November, 2016, 09:34:34 am »
Chuff, it's getting chilly!  Forcast says -3ºC daytime at the moment and  -7ºC nighttime for the next 3 days.

Re: The 2016 "is your heating on yet?" thread
« Reply #161 on: 08 November, 2016, 09:57:34 am »
A Worcester-Bosch combination boiler.
I didn't know of this 'feature' when I committed to the new boiler, nor was it explained to me.

I will search for literature.

I'm fairly sure partner tried to maximise temperature immediately after installation and this was tops. I was unhappy then but only have only really needed heating this week.

Partner is mooching about in dressing gown, looking sad. We've had soup for the first time in ages. I have turned up room thermostat and will await events.

Is there a bypass loop close to the boiler?
This will be a pipe with a valve, which basically short-circuits the flow and return, to allow a flow path in the event that all other radiators are shut off.

If the bypass loop is too much open, then hot water returns to the boiler straight away, and it shuts down because it thinks things are hot enough.
The boiler will then short-cycle.
Cure is to shut down the bypass loop to absolute minimum, directing flow out to the radiators.
Isn't it the other way round, the bypass loop should be open so that water continues to circulate without the boiler having to cycle even if rad valves are not open?

I'm guessing that Helly has been sold a boiler with only one water temp setting, rather than separate temperatures for central heating and hot water.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: The 2016 "is your heating on yet?" thread
« Reply #162 on: 08 November, 2016, 11:20:37 am »
Many years ago I had a colleague who was renting a room from an old lady in an old house with old-fashioned tiled stoves. Old lady was too poor to afford much coal for the stoves so there was virtually no heating. This was in Poland, where it can be below zero 24/7 from early December to early March. Colleague said when it was 12 degrees in the house, you can work, but when it was 8, you can't.

At about 8 o'clock this morning the thermometer on my bike computer said 13.4. I don't suppose it's particularly accurate. It felt warm in the house and we didn't have any heating on. By 9 it had gone up to 14.6 but I felt too cold to comfortably write bumf about <business redacted> so I put the heating on. It's now up to 15.5 but it feels colder than ever. Grrr and brrr, I've got to finish this by 1 o'clock. I think I'll have another cup of tea first.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: The 2016 "is your heating on yet?" thread
« Reply #163 on: 08 November, 2016, 11:42:41 am »
A Worcester-Bosch combination boiler.
I didn't know of this 'feature' when I committed to the new boiler, nor was it explained to me.

I will search for literature.

I'm fairly sure partner tried to maximise temperature immediately after installation and this was tops. I was unhappy then but only have only really needed heating this week.

Partner is mooching about in dressing gown, looking sad. We've had soup for the first time in ages. I have turned up room thermostat and will await events.

Is there a bypass loop close to the boiler?
This will be a pipe with a valve, which basically short-circuits the flow and return, to allow a flow path in the event that all other radiators are shut off.

If the bypass loop is too much open, then hot water returns to the boiler straight away, and it shuts down because it thinks things are hot enough.
The boiler will then short-cycle.
Cure is to shut down the bypass loop to absolute minimum, directing flow out to the radiators.
Isn't it the other way round, the bypass loop should be open so that water continues to circulate without the boiler having to cycle even if rad valves are not open?

I'm guessing that Helly has been sold a boiler with only one water temp setting, rather than separate temperatures for central heating and hot water.

The bypass loop is there to prevent deadheading the pump if all the radiators have TRVs, and they all close.
In many installations, there will we an always-on radiator ( eg bathroom towel rail ) in which case there is no need for a bypass loop.

Some bypass loops will have a PRV and will only open if the forward loop pressure exceeds a certain value.
Others can just be a dumb gate valve.

In the case of a dumb gate valve, it this is located close to the boiler and open too much, then freshly-heated water returns directly to the boiler causing the boiler stat to become satisfied and shut down, before much in the way of hot water has gone round the rads. As this cools, the boiler will fire briefly again, until it sees hot water returning again.   In this case, the rads never become properly hot.

Re: The 2016 "is your heating on yet?" thread
« Reply #164 on: 08 November, 2016, 12:30:47 pm »
I think I've installed a different circuit, where the water temp sensor and circulation pump were on a different location.

Surely rads are all wired 'parallel' to the central heating loop, so even if every TRV valve shuts, the water can still circulate and your circulation pump can never dead head?
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: The 2016 "is your heating on yet?" thread
« Reply #165 on: 08 November, 2016, 01:27:14 pm »
Yes, they will be in parallel in most normal installations.
A picture being worth a thousand words, here's a quick hand-sketch of the installation I'm thinking of.

If all the TRVs close, there is no flow path. ( Unless there was an open radiator somewhere downstream. )
The bypass loop ( shown with a PRV in this example ) will open if all the TRVs close and the forward pressure builds up.

Although I've drawn both pump and TRVs on the return side, they could equally well be on the flow side.


PrimaryLoop by Ron Lowe, on Flickr

Re: The 2016 "is your heating on yet?" thread
« Reply #166 on: 08 November, 2016, 01:38:50 pm »
I love your drawing. Particularly the little helicopter.
I'd assumed there was *always* a rad with no TRVs on it, and valves wide open, but you learn something every day.

In the system I installed, the circulation pump would run independently of the boiler firing. Since it was diesel and the heat exchanger was a massive lump of 6mm steel, it was normal for the pump to run for considerable time before the boiler fired. V efficient system. Makes me doubt the whole design of combi boilers.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: The 2016 "is your heating on yet?" thread
« Reply #167 on: 08 November, 2016, 01:47:45 pm »
Yes, in many systems there will be an always-on rad ( usually a heated towel rail ), making a bypass loop un-necessary.

Many systems there days have the pump wired via the boiler, and the boiler will then make the pump continue to run for some time after the burner shuts down.   This feature is called Pump Overrun usually.

Kim

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Re: The 2016 "is your heating on yet?" thread
« Reply #168 on: 08 November, 2016, 01:53:20 pm »
Many systems there days have the pump wired via the boiler, and the boiler will then make the pump continue to run for some time after the burner shuts down.   This feature is called Pump Overrun usually.

Surely it's only overrun when it continues after the demand signal (from the room thermostat/timer/botnet/whatever) stops.  The pump should run continuously when there's demand, in order that the cold return water reaches the boiler stat and it knows to fire again.

It's more interesting with a combi, where it will overrun and pump water through the heat exchanger to the heating circuit after you stop running the hot tap.

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: The 2016 "is your heating on yet?" thread
« Reply #169 on: 08 November, 2016, 02:01:34 pm »
Many systems there days have the pump wired via the boiler, and the boiler will then make the pump continue to run for some time after the burner shuts down.   This feature is called Pump Overrun usually.

Surely it's only overrun when it continues after the demand signal (from the room thermostat/timer/botnet/whatever) stops.  The pump should run continuously when there's demand, in order that the cold return water reaches the boiler stat and it knows to fire again.

Yes, exactly.
I thought that was what I'd said.
Perhaps re-phrasing is required...

The 'overrun' bit refers to "...boiler will then make the pump continue to run for some time after the burner shuts down..." ...as a result of the Call for Heat signal going off.

Yes, it will continue to run so long as Call for Heat is on, even if the boiler stat has cycled off.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: The 2016 "is your heating on yet?" thread
« Reply #170 on: 08 November, 2016, 06:07:22 pm »
Displayed temperature 0.3C colder, perceived temperature a great deal warmer.  :) Goodness knows what the "real" temperature is.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Karla

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Re: The 2016 "is your heating on yet?" thread
« Reply #171 on: 09 November, 2016, 02:11:19 pm »
Yes it's on, because Hell has apparently just frozen over.

Re: The 2016 "is your heating on yet?" thread
« Reply #172 on: 09 November, 2016, 02:31:28 pm »
Faulty boiler rectified.  Turns out that there was a slight leak in the pipework that our tame installer installed a few weeks ago, which had given rise to a bit of air in the oil line, which had borked the igniter box.  >:(

Aunt Maud

  • Le Flâneur.
Re: The 2016 "is your heating on yet?" thread
« Reply #173 on: 09 November, 2016, 03:55:04 pm »
Instructed by the Finance and Administration Director (SWMBO) to "turn the chuffing heating on".

Torslanda

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Re: The 2016 "is your heating on yet?" thread
« Reply #174 on: 09 November, 2016, 07:14:32 pm »
Yes. A very nice man has just left after wrangling our boiler back into working condition.

A new pilot assembly is required which will be fitted on Saturday afternoodle . . .
VELOMANCER

Well that's the more blunt way of putting it but as usual he's dead right.