Author Topic: Perms & Rrty award  (Read 4158 times)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Perms & Rrty award
« on: 29 January, 2018, 01:31:37 am »

I'm trying to work out which perms count towards the Randonneur round the year award. Is there an easy way to work this out from the perm page ?

Am thinking of doing something like http://www.aukweb.net/perms/detail/NWK01/  ?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Perms & Rrty award
« Reply #1 on: 29 January, 2018, 02:42:28 am »
AUK doesn't make a distinction between calendar or perm brevets for things like RRtY.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Perms & Rrty award
« Reply #2 on: 29 January, 2018, 07:56:13 am »
From the AUK website, which you have probably seen:

Quote
Often held to be one of the tougher challenges on offer, RRtY requires a BR or BRM event in each of 12 succesive calendar months. Perms (and DIYs) of at least 200km completed at Randonneur pace can be included and you can start in any month, but miss a month and you have to start all over again.

The rides to watch out for as they do not count for RRtY are the BP calendar rides, but these are not very common. Perms are all at 'Randonneur pace' I think.

Eddington: 133 miles    Max square: 43x43

Re: Perms & Rrty award
« Reply #3 on: 29 January, 2018, 12:17:50 pm »
I thought this was a silly question, as we all "know" what we mean by a Randonnée.  But it isn't that clear.  If you look at a Calendar event, the Category is clearly listed as BR or BRM which count for RRTY.  But for Perm events, the Category is listed as Permanent.

The Perm has got to be 200km or more at a speed of 14.3kph.  There are lots of BP Perms at distances up to 199km.

The real clue is whether it has any points against it on your Individual Rider List, but that's rather after the fact.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Perms & Rrty award
« Reply #4 on: 29 January, 2018, 12:23:52 pm »
I thought this was a silly question, as we all "know" what we mean by a Randonnée.  But it isn't that clear.  If you look at a Calendar event, the Category is clearly listed as BR or BRM which count for RRTY.  But for Perm events, the Category is listed as Permanent.

It's also a bit of an issue of literally being a foreign concept. 100% of the Randonnée rides I've done are in the Netherlands. Looking at the German, Dutch and Belgian audax/Randoneur sites, none of them have anything other than calendar events. Perms seem to be a British thing.

Quote

The Perm has got to be 200km or more at a speed of 14.3kph.  There are lots of BP Perms at distances up to 199km.

The real clue is whether it has any points against it on your Individual Rider List, but that's rather after the fact.

And that you only know if you are an Audax UK member, and not a member of a foreign Audaxing club that is thinking of doing a ride in the UK just to fill in a gap in the calendar...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Perms & Rrty award
« Reply #5 on: 29 January, 2018, 12:43:34 pm »
Don't you have to be an AUK member to claim RRTY?


Re: Perms & Rrty award
« Reply #6 on: 29 January, 2018, 12:46:57 pm »
I think so, though from a chat with bhoot the other night you can claim rides from before your membership (at least for the current season).

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Perms & Rrty award
« Reply #7 on: 29 January, 2018, 12:54:39 pm »
AUK, Audax Oz and RUSA treat perms and calendar brevets as the same thing. Pretty much everybody else maintain separation between the two event types.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Perms & Rrty award
« Reply #8 on: 29 January, 2018, 12:58:12 pm »
Does RRTY exist in those other countries?

I think so, though from a chat with bhoot the other night you can claim rides from before your membership (at least for the current season).

Is there a reason to do this rather than get the recorder to move rides to your membership (which I've done) before applying for RRTY?

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Perms & Rrty award
« Reply #9 on: 29 January, 2018, 12:59:54 pm »
Does RRTY exist in those other countries?

In the Netherlands it does. I believe they will accept rides done in other countries.

Quote
I think so, though from a chat with bhoot the other night you can claim rides from before your membership (at least for the current season).

Is there a reason to do this rather than get the recorder to move rides to your membership (which I've done) before applying for RRTY?

What does that mean?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Perms & Rrty award
« Reply #10 on: 29 January, 2018, 01:03:44 pm »
BRMs (calendar only) are recognised by all organisations. BRs are Brit only and ditto BR perms, so few (if any) other countries recognise those brevets. RUSA and Audax Oz similarly have locally recognised brevets.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Perms & Rrty award
« Reply #11 on: 29 January, 2018, 01:19:56 pm »
Is there a reason to do this rather than get the recorder to move rides to your membership (which I've done) before applying for RRTY?

What does that mean?

J

If you have rides from before you joined you can email the AUK Recorder and they'll associate them with your membership number and thus they appear in your results as if you had been a member when you rode them. I think you can only do it for a season or two in the past. But it seems tidier than making a special case for RRTY.

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Perms & Rrty award
« Reply #12 on: 29 January, 2018, 01:22:39 pm »
Just replacing work for one volunteer with work for another.

I thought this was a silly question, as we all "know" what we mean by a Randonnée.  But it isn't that clear.  If you look at a Calendar event, the Category is clearly listed as BR or BRM which count for RRTY.  But for Perm events, the Category is listed as Permanent.

Yes it's a bad data structure.  'Permanent' should not be an alternative to BP/BR/BRM.  Too deeply embedded to correct it within aukweb unfortunately.  We work round it in various convoluted ways.
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

Re: Perms & Rrty award
« Reply #13 on: 29 January, 2018, 02:50:41 pm »
Is there a reason to do this rather than get the recorder to move rides to your membership (which I've done) before applying for RRTY?

What does that mean?

J

If you have rides from before you joined you can email the AUK Recorder and they'll associate them with your membership number and thus they appear in your results as if you had been a member when you rode them. I think you can only do it for a season or two in the past. But it seems tidier than making a special case for RRTY.

I wasn't meaning to imply that there was a special case for RRTY - it's merely that bhoot referred to a couple of claims she's recently dealt with from new members. I didn't enquire as to the details of the mechanism, partly, though not entirely, because we were in the pub.

hillbilly

Re: Perms & Rrty award
« Reply #14 on: 29 January, 2018, 03:42:58 pm »
At the danger of continuing to lead the thread into the more obscure parts of AUK's validation and recording....

I am not going to pretend I understand why AUK now shows permanents as not BP or BR (they can't be BRM) and how this now allows the AUK system to pick this up in the results (e.g. for Blacksheep's populaire perm version of his Highland ride or for DIYs that might be over 200km but ridden as a populaire).  What magic is this?

bhoot

  • MemSec (ex-Mrs RRtY)
Re: Perms & Rrty award
« Reply #15 on: 29 January, 2018, 07:22:32 pm »
Don't you have to be an AUK member to claim RRTY?
Yes you do

If you have rides from before you joined you can email the AUK Recorder and they'll associate them with your membership number and thus they appear in your results as if you had been a member when you rode them. I think you can only do it for a season or two in the past. But it seems tidier than making a special case for RRTY.


I wasn't meaning to imply that there was a special case for RRTY - it's merely that bhoot referred to a couple of claims she's recently dealt with from new members. I didn't enquire as to the details of the mechanism, partly, though not entirely, because we were in the pub.

It is the standard mechanism, nothing special for RRtY. As per http://www.aukweb.net/aboutauk/faq/#331, when you join AUK you can ask for rides already ridden in that season to be added to the ride list for your sparkling new membership number. These could be UK rides for which you already appear on the results sheet but as a non member, or could be overseas rides meeting the necessary rules to be recognised by AUK (see http://www.aukweb.net/aboutauk/faq/#32). Once those results are on your rides list you can use them for an RRtY claim.


mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Perms & Rrty award
« Reply #16 on: 29 January, 2018, 07:52:26 pm »
I thought this was a silly question, as we all "know" what we mean by a Randonnée.  But it isn't that clear.  If you look at a Calendar event, the Category is clearly listed as BR or BRM which count for RRTY.  But for Perm events, the Category is listed as Permanent.

It's also a bit of an issue of literally being a foreign concept. 100% of the Randonnée rides I've done are in the Netherlands. Looking at the German, Dutch and Belgian audax/Randoneur sites, none of them have anything other than calendar events. Perms seem to be a British thing.

Also in the US. The French did invent the Super Randonee (massively hilly 600k), and I think have a few other rides (e.g. the Diagonales?), but nothing like the number we have in the UK (unless I just haven't found them yet ... )
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Perms & Rrty award
« Reply #17 on: 29 January, 2018, 08:05:33 pm »
French perms have independent awards to their calendar brevets. Only the British (and by cross-fertilisation the Aussies and Yanks) treat perms and calendar brevets as interchangeable.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Perms & Rrty award
« Reply #18 on: 30 January, 2018, 07:37:28 pm »
If you have rides from before you joined you can email the AUK Recorder and they'll associate them with your membership number and thus they appear in your results as if you had been a member when you rode them. I think you can only do it for a season or two in the past. But it seems tidier than making a special case for RRTY.

Only possible to add rides for the season in which you join.
So if you ride any time between 1 October 2017 and 30 Sept 2018, you need join AUK (and get your membership number to the Recorder along with details of the rides you are claiming) before 30 September 2018

Just replacing work for one volunteer with work for another.
True ... but it is 'tidier' in the sense that those rides, once added to a new members Individual Results List, can also be used towards other awards than RRTY.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Perms & Rrty award
« Reply #19 on: 31 January, 2018, 10:17:11 pm »
The French did invent the Super Randonee (massively hilly 600k), and I think have a few other rides (e.g. the Diagonales?), but nothing like the number we have in the UK (unless I just haven't found them yet ... )

https://ffct.org/activites-federales/adherents/les-brevets/brevets-touristiques/ gives a good overview of FFCT permanents. There is a wide range of perms but some of them aren't recognisable as such to AUKs, being closer to Sustrans' C2C route. There are very few ACP perms but there are lots of FFCT ones managed by other organisations.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Perms & Rrty award
« Reply #20 on: 31 January, 2018, 10:32:14 pm »
Does RRTY exist in those other countries?


Yes, and increasingly popular

On the continent there are currently 3 countries with official RRtY's:
Netherlands
Belgium
Romania.

Randonneurs.be has a few perms with special rules (max amount of them and not to be ridden on days when there's a BRM).
The Dutch RRtY is events only (BRM) and most have to be in the Netherlands.

Re: Perms & Rrty award
« Reply #21 on: 01 February, 2018, 08:44:33 am »
Randonneurs.be has a few perms  ... not to be ridden on days when there's a BRM

Interesting rule.  For my own Perms I have a rule that the Perm cannot be ridden on the same day as the Calendar version, just to ensure that cheapskates don't do the same ride but without paying for any TLC at the controls.

Re: Perms & Rrty award
« Reply #22 on: 02 February, 2018, 09:37:08 am »
Its completely reasonable not to allow a perm on the same day as the calendar version of the same ride.

But to stop someone doing a perm if theres a different calendar ride available would be harsh.

Do the Belgians apply that rule even if the rides are hundreds of kilometers apart?

Re: Perms & Rrty award
« Reply #23 on: 02 February, 2018, 10:29:03 am »
Its completely reasonable not to allow a perm on the same day as the calendar version of the same ride.

But to stop someone doing a perm if theres a different calendar ride available would be harsh.

Do the Belgians apply that rule even if the rides are hundreds of kilometers apart?

Indeed, anywhere within the country. But mind you, Randonneurs Belgium is the only continental organisation which allows perms at all for a RRtY. Continental randonneuring is much more centred around events.