Hubs/Rims/Spoke recomendations

[trekker12]

Am contemplating N+1 (previous N+1 was finished last month) built on my original road bike dating back to the early/mid 90s.

Thought I'd have a go at a fixed as I've never done it before. I've also never built my own wheels so also seems a good place to start.

Can anyone recommend which hubs/rims and spokes to go with. I'm a bit of a Mavic fan so looking at Open Sports or even the A119. I've no idea where to start with hubs. I'm looking to do this on as small a budget as possible (I got a bit carried away with N+1) and this is only for mucking around with possible commuting duties and perhaps an Audax if I'm feeling brave.

Alternatively I could just convert the original wheels but not really sure where to start and reading mixed reviews on their safety. It's a five speed on what I assume to be 120mm spacing but haven't measured that. The frame does have horizontal dropouts

Thanks

[Hot Flatus]

Dia compe Gran compe (£42 sjs) on Ambrosio Excursion (planet X)

[Ian H]

Open Sports are not strong. Open Pro is better.

[nightrider]

I've got a spare fixed wheel/s-s I don't want.Free to good home.Its a black Weinmann with 18 tooth sprockets.Yours if you collect.

[bikenrrd]

Open Sports are not strong. Open Pro is better.

And Open Pros aren't exactly amazing rims either.
I'd recommend Velocity A23 or H Plus Son Archetype rims.  Depends if you want a "classic looking" rim, though.

[mzjo]

Open Sports are not strong. Open Pro is better.

I don't break rims so obviously I am not a reference but I have had no problems with either Open Sport or CXP22 rims. I reckon that for learning to build wheels on the cheap either will do (although the first wheel I ever built was on an old Weinmann rim that my dad had run over in the garage). I would probably reckon to keep the old front wheel and use the rim off the rear to build a fixie wheel if money was tight. Once you have got that one straight you will have learnt enough to attempt something more ambitious with more confidence. 

[rogerzilla]

I agree with the above.  I wouldn't pay real money for a current Mavic rim when they're no better than a Rigida or DRC cheapie.  DT rims are excellent but expensive.  DT Competition 2.0/1.8/2.0 spokes are my default choice for any wheel, although I have sometimes used DT Revolution (and Sapim Race).

Hub choice is really all about chainline.  This varies from about 42mm (a very unofficial "track standard") up to about 50mm (for MTB conversions using Hollowtech 2 cranksets and external BB bearings).  You are probably looking at the lower end of this range.  Avoid Dura-Ace track hubs as they are not designed for outdoor use - they have omitted the lip seals, for reduced friction.

32 spokes are fine for a typical dishless fixed rear wheel, as they are inherently much stronger than a dished derailleur wheel.  Not all are dishless though, especially some fixed/free hubs, so be careful.

[mzjo]

I agree with the above.  I wouldn't pay real money for a current Mavic rim when they're no better than a Rigida or DRC cheapie.  DT rims are excellent but expensive.  DT Competition 2.0/1.8/2.0 spokes are my default choice for any wheel, although I have sometimes used DT Revolution (and Sapim Race).

I thought Rigida no longer existed (which is why Ambrosio makes rims for the 650B Confederates) so I googled. More information http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3571.0;wap2

[Jakob]

Avoid Dura-Ace track hubs as they are not designed for outdoor use - they have omitted the lip seals, for reduced friction.

They come with outdoor seals. (Not installed).

[Pedal Castro]

Hmm, didn't know about the poor rep of Mavic open pro, I have just built a new rear for my fixed using a Campag Record Pista hub. It is only 28 spokes (DT Revolution), so I hope it holds up OK! I would like to convert my old airlite hubs from sprints to HPs but cannot find any 40 hole rims.

[jsabine]

Not sure that the Open Pro has that bad a reputation - I've used little else for years so have few points of reference, but have never really had cause to complain about anything other than the current price.

As for 40h rims, I'm looking too. Easiest options seem to be Sputnik, A719, or something from Velocity. I don't like any of them ... would ideally like something along the lines of an Open Pro, Evolution, Excellence, Chrina.

[trekker12]

Thanks for the advice all. I've used Open Pros for some time too so that's why I started there but will consider options. Although will take up nightriders kind offer as a starting point

[vorsprung]

Not sure that the Open Pro has that bad a reputation - I've used little else for years so have few points of reference, but have never really had cause to complain about anything other than the current price.

Apart from the price, there are cases of cracking around the eyelets.  I have had this happen to a rim on my bike.  This might be due to excessive tension.  So on the next build I did I made the wheel with just a tad less tension.  That wheel had a broken spoke after a year.  My (probably unjustified) conclusion is that one needs a high precision tension meter to "hit the sweet spot" where the spokes are tense enough to be strong but not over tense to break the eyelets.  I have no such equipment so I will be building with other rims.

[jsabine]

I've had one incident of cracking round an eyelet, at least 10 years ago, which I'm confident was down to excessive tension. (I left that wheel for a very long time before rebuilding it, and was astonished how much tension there was in the spokes when I unlaced it.)

Since then, I've had no cracking, and the only two spokes I've broken have been on a 28h rear that I was overloading horribly and generally mistreating. No other problems, and no tensiometer either. I don't build enough wheels to justify one; on the flip side, I think I do build enough wheels to be better at it than I was 10 years ago.

[greenmeansgo]

You can't go wrong with these. I've been very happy with them for several years.
http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/HUOOLF/on-one-large-flangetrack-hub

Teamed with Chrina rims have been very reliable, and modestly priced wheels.

[Pickled Onion]

Not sure that the Open Pro has that bad a reputation - I've used little else for years so have few points of reference, but have never really had cause to complain about anything other than the current price.

Apart from the price, there are cases of cracking around the eyelets.  I have had this happen to a rim on my bike. 

I've had two of these rims fail on the rear with both cracking round the eyelets and cracking along the braking surface. On the last I cut the rim to see if it was down to wear, and the thickness of the metal was virtually the same throughout (rare use of the rear brake) so it must have been due to fatigue.

However, they both had over 35,000 km on them, which I don't think is too shoddy.

[Biggsy]

I've had no problems with high tension with Open Pros - high enough for it to be difficult to turn the fully lubricated nipples.  But Open Pros aren't especially great value for money in general any more.  They were cheapest and lightest double-eyeletted road rims at one point.

[Rhys W]

Not sure that the Open Pro has that bad a reputation - I've used little else for years so have few points of reference, but have never really had cause to complain about anything other than the current price.

I've found no evidence of this supposed bad reputation and I've acquired quite a few pairs over the last few years. I also like Open Sports - a bit more metal to wear away, ideal for bikes ridden in wet winter conditions. Maybe I have good wheelbuilders.

For a change I had my Record hubs rebuilt with Ambrosio Excellights last summer. Nice and light but I'm struggling to come up with a reason why they're almost twice the price of Open Pros.

[Hot Flatus]

I'll say it again.

Ambrosio Excursion.

Cheap from PX and strong.

http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/RIAMEXC/ambrosio-excursion-rim

[jsabine]

Aye, I've built a pair with Excursions which seemed fine, as do Evolutions.

Back on the tangent I tried to start above, does anyone have recommendations for reasonably cheap, light, narrowish 40h rims?

[greenmeansgo]

I'll say it again.

Ambrosio Excursion.

Cheap from PX and strong.

http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/RIAMEXC/ambrosio-excursion-rim

They look nearly identical to Rigida Chrina, but with a wear line, and slightly more expensive. Have I missed anything?

[rogerzilla]

I'm not convinced by double eyelets.  In the real world they don't seem to add much strength compared to single eyelets or even no eyelets.  Also, they have an annoying tendency to come loose with age and creak.  What are the chances of the load being equally shared by both rim walls with a double eyelet?  Not much, I'd wager; I bet one wall takes nearly all of it as precision is unlikely to be all that high.

[Biggsy]

Rims with single eyelets should be just as strong if the supporting wall is thicker, but you don't always get that.  Too easily I've deformed single/no-eyeletted cheap rims with enthusiastic spoke tension.

[bikenrrd]

Eyelets themselves aren't necessary if the spoke bed is reinforce - i.e. more material around the spoke hole.  Quite a few rims are built like this now, most noticeably the ones made by Velocity.
The failure mode is different - you crack the rim, whereas with a eyeletted rim you might pop the eyelet out.  Either way, the rim is toast.
Eyelets help with building by providing a bearing surface against the nipple but, so long as you grease or oil the nipples before building, you won't get any more twist up with a non-eyelet rim.

[mzjo]

Re eyelets: does anyone make a rim using washers under the spoke heads to spread the load? When I did my first TTs  (nearly 40 years ago) I had a pair of Nisi Evian sprint rims that were like this. Damn nuisance if you dropped the washer inside the rim section and had to shake the wheel in all directions to get it back. Very strong rims I think.