Was Lance wrong? Is it really about the bike?

[LEE]

I have definite proof of this.

I don't doubt you're faster on your road bike, but you don't have definite proof that it's down to the bike unless you measure the wind conditions and your power input*.  Best times mean nothing on their own.

* Only possible with expensive specialist equipment.

You'll just have to trust me then (but it IS significantly quicker)

[Biggsy]

I trust that you believe it is faster, and I believe my best bike is faster than my other bikes, but we don't have proof.

[border-rider]

Have you seen the drag numbers?

What's the "beta" parameter ?

Were those data recorded just for the frames, for the whole bikes or bikes+rider ?

(and - why is drag measured in g ?)

[gonzo]

Have you seen the drag numbers?

What's the "beta" parameter ?

Were those data recorded just for the frames, for the whole bikes or bikes+rider ?

(and - why is drag measured in g ?)

Yaw, yes* and because it's the industry standard

*the addition of a rider makes very little (if any difference) to the the drag of the bike alone. Counter intuitive, but I've bashed out the common sense arguments repeatedly with Andrew Coogan and the simple answer is that he's spent a long time working in wind tunnels and it's what he sees every time.

[TimC]

I trust that you believe it is faster, and I believe my best bike is faster than my other bikes, but we don't have proof.

So really what you're saying is: TKP and Mrs TKP aren't trying hard enough and need to put in more effort. They could be riding a 3"-wheeled RSJ-framed fixed-gear two-ton special, but if they give it some decent muscle power they'll have no trouble keeping up with the whippets on their lightweight multi-geared carbon-framed uberbikes.

Right.

[Wendy]

So really what you're saying is: TKP and Mrs TKP aren't trying hard enough and need to put in more effort. They could be riding a 3"-wheeled RSJ-framed fixed-gear two-ton special, but if they give it some decent muscle power they'll have no trouble keeping up with the whippets on their lightweight multi-geared carbon-framed uberbikes.

Right.

Gonzo, I thought you had a degree?  Surely that would tell you the difference between proof and something that's almost certainly the case?

[gonzo]

So really what you're saying is: TKP and Mrs TKP aren't trying hard enough and need to put in more effort. They could be riding a 3"-wheeled RSJ-framed fixed-gear two-ton special, but if they give it some decent muscle power they'll have no trouble keeping up with the whippets on their lightweight multi-geared carbon-framed uberbikes.

Right.

Gonzo, I thought you had a degree?  Surely that would tell you the difference between proof and something that's almost certainly the case?

I'm confused!

[Moloko]

* Bach's 'Air onna G-String'* Hamlet the mild cigar.

[Wendy]

p.s. you do realise that Biggsy's comments relate to Lee's posts, right?

[gonzo]

p.s. you do realise that Biggsy's comments relate to Lee's posts, right?

That's what confused me... How did I get involved in the difference between proof and "almost certainly the case"?

[alan]

p.s. you do realise that Biggsy's comments relate to Lee's posts, right?

That's what confused me... How did I get involved in the difference between proof and "almost certainly the case"?

It's  in the nature of a "developing conversation" on an internet forum.

[border-rider]

p.s. you do realise that Biggsy's comments relate to Lee's posts, right?

That's what confused me... How did I get involved in the difference between proof and "almost certainly the case"?

In fact they're usually much the same thing, depending on exactly what you mean by "proof".  It's rarely absolut.

[mattc]

Thanks everybody, my suspicions are confirmed. Especially that last example from Lee which seems pretty conclusive.

I am now going to the garage to strip every superfluous component from our bikes and fit the skinny wheels. We are due out on a group ride tomorrow night, I will report back.

You're forgetting something - the enormous satisfaction of sticking with riders on faster bikes.

It's like playing tennis/chess against a superior opponent - _you_ will only get better, _they_ will more than likely stagnate

[MSeries]

If one is sticking with them then they ain't on faster bikes.

[clarion]

It's not about a gaspipe BSO v a heap of soot bonded with pixie's tears.  The issue is whether the difference between, say, a fast tourer and a road bike is significant when weighed against all the other possible factors. 

[mike]

and what counts as significant? 

1mph extra doesnt sound a lot, but it's an extra 25 minutes in the pub at the end of a century ride, and that kind of thing is important!!

[clarion]

Exactly.  We don't have the parameters set.

[border-rider]

It's the "other factors" that determine it, indeed.

I'm sure that on a 10-mile TT on a smooth road (not that I'd ever do such a thing) a full-on race bike would be significantly faster than a tourer, all other things being equal.  But on a Newbury RC club winter run, with grotty lanes and West Berks road surfaces, I could usually go faster on a no-sus mountain bike than the fast boys could on skinny tyres.

[Biggsy]

Yes my comment about proof was in response to Lee's post about having "definite proof".

I didn't mean to be pedantic, and I'm already convinced that a decent road bike is faster than an average audax/tourer bike.  What is very difficult, though, is quantifying the amount of difference.

[toekneep]

As a result of this thread I have taken considerable satisfaction from sticking with them on our mudguard hindered, tractor wheeled tourers. The time has come however, to find out just how much harder we have been working. I've just reduced the weight of Mrs. TKP's bike by about 2kg. Add to that the change from 32mm to 23mm tyres and narrower rims, plus the lack of mudguards and she should be flying tomorrow night.

[border-rider]

Good man.

Lighter wheels & tyres will make a bigger difference than almost anything to performance. 

[Jaded]

extra 25 minutes in the pub

Now I understand!

[Hot Flatus]

p.s. you do realise that Biggsy's comments relate to Lee's posts, right?

That's what confused me... How did I get involved in the difference between proof and "almost certainly the case"?

It's  in the nature of a "developing conversation" on an internet forum.

I'm beginning to think Bent Mikey could start a fight in an empty room 

[citoyen]

If one is sticking with them then they ain't on faster bikes.

Good answer.

I could always keep up with my clubmates on my old steel tourer before I got my bling bike. But they're mostly just one step up from CTC Sunday pootlers, to be fair - though a couple are veteran racers. "You'd be dangerous if you had a proper bike," said erstwhile Cat 1 racer Mike. Except he was just toying with me. As soon as I got a faster bike and started riding faster, he just upped his tempo - without seeming to make any extra effort. He can still drop me on hills in the blink of an eye when he wants to.

We had a visiting American rider come out with us a couple of times, until she realised we were far too slow for her. Her PB for a 25 was under an hour. I expect she could have ridden us all off her wheel on a Sterling House gaspipe job.

d.

[clarion]

OK.  This morning I did a door to door time of 56mins.  Nothing special about that, really, until you factor in a ten minute wait at the level crossing. 

So my average riding speed was 25.7kph.  My normal target (rarely achieved) is 25kph.  So I thought I had achieved a new maximum.

Looking back through the data, on Bikejournal and on my spreadsheet, I find that's not true.  Over the first couple of months I was commuting to this job, my speed rose, and in August, I was hitting 25kph regularly, and peaked at 27.4kph.

Hmm - are there other factors involved?  Well, yes.  My speeds in Sept & Oct were OK, but not as fast.  Then, in November, two things happened: We moved house so my commute doubled, and I had my first off.

Since then, of course, I have had the second off, and the injuries etc involved with that.

I'm riding the Woodrup because my Orbit is in for repair.  But I'm recovering still - this is my first week back at work after three weeks off.

And then there's the wind.  I've been riding home significantly slower than I ride in.  This morning, it's still blowing.

So.  Is 25.7kph a good speed for me?  I'd answer yes, because of that recovery.  It's the fastest I've managed since we moved.  And so I have to conclude that, given all the data, I'm approx 0.5-1kph faster on the road bike, on average.  Not a lot, but perhaps significant.