It's basically a rehash of the national grid thats been in use in various forms since the 1930s...
Except unlike the grid it won't work if you don't have a working GPS locater handy...
Is there an algorithm for determining the 3 words, given your location?
Or is it purely a hooting great rainbow table?
They said when it was launched that one of the main uses they foresaw was for deliveries and service provision (electricity etc) in non-addressed places, such as slums, informal constructions and new developments. I'm not sure it necessarily ties in with government uses.
I hope I'm not the only one, but I just don't understand it. Looked at my own address, and it said: 'bollocks, knob, cheese'.
Yes, it is a proprietary system. So you have to use their website or their app. Seems like a bad idea to rely on it for any business or government use.
But it seems they are doing a good job of marketing and getting publicity anyway.
This is more fun. http://www.what3fucks.com/
Or a more polite option. http://what3ducks.com/
Or https://what3emojis.com/
Or http://www.what3ikea.com/
Yes, that too. I remember reading an article about how it was used to get more nomads to vote.They are experts of marketing. Probably another round of venture capital due soon.
Having an address opens up all sorts of things for people. Having an efficient address even more so. Here in .NL, you could write my name on an envelope, with "1066EA 1, Netherlands" and it will get to me (that's not my home address). In the UK "Name, 10 CT2 7NT, UK" Is enough for an address. All that other stuff we put on an envelope is redundant cruft. The postcode + house number is all you need. Unfortunately this isn't the case of all countries. In Belgium 1200 is the postcode of all of Antwerp. Germany and France's post code system is similarly stupid.
It's basically a rehash of the national grid thats been in use in various forms since the 1930s...
Except unlike the grid it won't work if you don't have a working GPS locater handy...
No. Not really.
National grid only really covers the UK, and it's complex and hard for many people to communicate. Small errors in transcription can cause massive errors in where you end up. Especially if read over a poor phone line.
"Where are you?"
"TEE ARE 123456"
"Ok, See you at PEE ARE 123456"
"No, TEE ARE"
"Eh"
"TANGO ROMEO"
"AAAH"
Where as with What3Words, it's just "Purple.Monkey.Dishwasher" And because of the algorithm, Purple.Monkey.Pirate, is going to be thousands of kilometers away so you can easily check you're in the right ball park.
But the real development of what3words comes from the fact that the whole data structure fits in 10MB of disk/memory. And it works world wide.
I hope I'm not the only one, but I just don't understand it. Looked at my own address, and it said: 'bollocks, knob, cheese'.
Well the word list is filtered to remove profanity, so that seems unlikely. That said, you're probably not the target market for this sort of system. You probably have a valid address, with a postcode.Yes, it is a proprietary system. So you have to use their website or their app. Seems like a bad idea to rely on it for any business or government use.
But it seems they are doing a good job of marketing and getting publicity anyway.
This is more fun. http://www.what3fucks.com/
Or a more polite option. http://what3ducks.com/
Or https://what3emojis.com/
Or http://www.what3ikea.com/
Yes, there are various spoof versions, and the proprietary nature of it is perhaps a concern. Maybe one day someone with a fuckton of money will buy the project and open source it...
J
If you don't believe me, meet me at thinker.managed.groom, we can discuss it over a pint. It really is a great project.
It's basically a rehash of the national grid thats been in use in various forms since the 1930s...
Except unlike the grid it won't work if you don't have a working GPS locater handy...
No. Not really.
In what way?They said when it was launched that one of the main uses they foresaw was for deliveries and service provision (electricity etc) in non-addressed places, such as slums, informal constructions and new developments. I'm not sure it necessarily ties in with government uses.
Yes, that too. I remember reading an article about how it was used to get more nomads to vote.
If you don't believe me, meet me at thinker.managed.groom, we can discuss it over a pint. It really is a great project.
I was keen on the idea up until this point, but then I misheard you and wrote down thinker.manage.groom (https://map.what3words.com/thinker.manage.groom), which is also a valid address. The site doesn't offer any assistance in figuring out what you meant. This seems quite a massive flaw.
If you don't believe me, meet me at thinker.managed.groom, we can discuss it over a pint. It really is a great project.
I was keen on the idea up until this point, but then I misheard you and wrote down thinker.manage.groom (https://map.what3words.com/thinker.manage.groom), which is also a valid address. The site doesn't offer any assistance in figuring out what you meant. This seems quite a massive flaw.
Having an address opens up all sorts of things for people. Having an efficient address even more so. Here in .NL, you could write my name on an envelope, with "1066EA 1, Netherlands" and it will get to me (that's not my home address).Of course it's not. We all know you live at "The flat opposite the stupidly placed lamppost", remember? ;)
In the UK "Name, 10 CT2 7NT, UK" Is enough for an address. All that other stuff we put on an envelope is redundant cruft. The postcode + house number is all you need. Unfortunately this isn't the case of all countries. In Belgium 1200 is the postcode of all of Antwerp. Germany and France's post code system is similarly stupid.It's said that if you're the right sort of Englishman, your address will be three lines:
thinker.manage.groom
9223km away , near Santa Tomas Atzingo, Mexico
thinker.managed.groom
4km away, near Amsterdam, North Holland
thinkers.manage.groom
10414km away near Port Area, Metro Manilla.
They said when it was launched that one of the main uses they foresaw was for deliveries and service provision (electricity etc) in non-addressed places, such as slums, informal constructions and new developments. I'm not sure it necessarily ties in with government uses.
Yes, that too. I remember reading an article about how it was used to get more nomads to vote.
Having an address opens up all sorts of things for people. Having an efficient address even more so. Here in .NL, you could write my name on an envelope, with "1066EA 1, Netherlands" and it will get to me (that's not my home address). In the UK "Name, 10 CT2 7NT, UK" Is enough for an address. All that other stuff we put on an envelope is redundant cruft. The postcode + house number is all you need. Unfortunately this isn't the case of all countries. In Belgium 1200 is the postcode of all of Antwerp. Germany and France's post code system is similarly stupid.
Being able to use liability.ramming.chips or influence.eyeliner.nozzles as an address is amazingly efficient. Having a system for 57 TRILLION locations that fits in just 10MB, is a real achievement.
We've had other systems for global location, but they are all clunky as hell. WGS84 Lat/Long is in theory useful, but you then have 3 ways of writing it dd.dddddE, dd.dddddN, dd°mm'ssE dd°mm'ss'N dd°mm.mmmm E, dd°mm.mmmmm, and when it comes to route planning between them, it's kinda clunky as you're doing base 60 maths, and it's a pain due to circles. This is why UTM was invented. With UTM, the base unit is a meter, and you can use basic Pythagoras and trig to calculate the location between two points. But it's a compromise, and esp at the edge of each zone, things can get blurry. I had a custom printed map of an area of Norway made, and they printed a valid UTM grid over it, but it wasn't the ideal UTM grid, meaning that had I used that map to read off coordinates, I would have got a position upto 3-4km away. In an emergency that would be enough to send the SAR team to the wrong place. Positioning systems are hard. *REALLY* hard.
What3words is something that can be used and understood by average people who just want to be able to say their Yurt is at impartially.lists.scrambled.
It's also been used by things like the superbowl, and festivals. You've got some drunks in a stadium, how do you radio the location in? "Um, bottom end of corridor C, by the hotdog stand" or smoke.energetic.harmony.
Yes it relies on an app, I can't easily look at my paper map and give you a what3words address. But with the right tooling (there is an API), you can have things like your standard security grunt's radio just show on the screen the current location as a what3words address.
It's a 10MB data set, plus an algorithm It fits in all but the most basic of phones. You could even implement it on an Arduino if you manage your memory well...
J
Really helpful post, thanks. But 'All that other stuff we put on an envelope is redundant cruft' doesn't seem fair, to me. All that other stuff builds in redundancy, it's not redundant. And 'analogue' addresses are themselves more resistant to damage / marking.
As a geographical locator, it's not good enough. And I'm someone who thinks that people who don't use a house number, preferring "Bide-a-wee" or "Crow's Nest", deserve all the mis-directed Amazon parcels they never get.
In the UK "Name, 10 CT2 7NT, UK" Is enough for an address. All that other stuff we put on an envelope is redundant cruft. The postcode + house number is all you need. Unfortunately this isn't the case of all countries. In Belgium 1200 is the postcode of all of Antwerp. Germany and France's post code system is similarly stupid.
It's said that if you're the right sort of Englishman, your address will be three lines:
Quixote,
Geek House,
Bikeshire.
No need for a post code. But only for the right sort of Englishman.
All that other stuff we put on an envelope is redundant cruft.
I have two objections to what.3.words:
One) it is proprietary, private enterprise
Two) resolving information from an address is utterly reliant on a working app
The second is the more fundamental flaw. Given a postcode and local knowledge, you can get close to a location.
Also works for the wrong sort of Englishman: I once sent a postcard to "$person_name, Shite Bunker, Bristol". Took a little longer than normal, but it got there just fine.:D :D :D
Here's the thing... If the person's phone has a data connection - the web page can just send the geolocation directly back to the emergency services! No need to get a human to read it out, then another human to listen and type it in to a different system.
There is literally no need for W3W in this scenario. If you have a data connection, you can send your precise location without an intermediary.
If you have a GPS clearly you can use that. Hopefully the emergency services would understand whatever format your GPS gave.
I had a fraught conversation with a 999 operator from the scene of a bike-vs-bike accident requiring an ambulance on a rural road. They couldn't cope with "On $B-road, about half a k east of the junction with $A-road", or map coordinates in either OS grid or WGS84. No, what they really wanted was a postcode. What I ended up doing was walking down the road and discovering the name of the nearby farm.
Why can't you do this all in an app?
My wife's car engine died a fortnight ago. Call with RAC and they want a postcode. Who the hell knows the postcode of where they are unless they are at home? Even if you have a sat nav do they allow you to bring up the postcode of where you currently are? They could not cope with near Tesco xxx, just up road Byyy second exit of the roundabout towards town zzz. Despite the fact typing that into osm or google maps would bring it up in seconds their end. Which idiot sold them a system they depends on the person needing help knowing a postcode or have a data connected smart phone on them?.
My wife's car engine died a fortnight ago. Call with RAC and they want a postcode. Who the hell knows the postcode of where they are unless they are at home? Even if you have a sat nav do they allow you to bring up the postcode of where you currently are? They could not cope with near Tesco xxx, just up road Byyy second exit of the roundabout towards town zzz. Despite the fact typing that into osm or google maps would bring it up in seconds their end. Which idiot sold them a system they depends on the person needing help knowing a postcode or have a data connected smart phone on them?
If you have a GPS clearly you can use that. Hopefully the emergency services would understand whatever format your GPS gave.
I refer you to my footnote above, where I was happy to read them precise coordinates in any of the formats my Garmin could generate, but no luck:I had a fraught conversation with a 999 operator from the scene of a bike-vs-bike accident requiring an ambulance on a rural road. They couldn't cope with "On $B-road, about half a k east of the junction with $A-road", or map coordinates in either OS grid or WGS84. No, what they really wanted was a postcode. What I ended up doing was walking down the road and discovering the name of the nearby farm.
The law of sod suggests that the emergency services will at some point be sold a what3words resolving tool, and want GPS locations in that. Which is as bad as requiring an app. They should really be able to cope with coordinates provided in standard formats (yes, I know there are so many to choose from, but Ordnance Survey and WGS84 punctuated in the common forms covers most users) using nothing more advanced than a Nokia 3310 and a map.
If in a perfect world with great signal for data and GPS that you could send easy to the emergency services, that would be great.
If in a perfect world with great signal for data and GPS that you could send easy to the emergency services, that would be great.
If you call the emergency services from a GPS-enabled mobile phone, their system can send your location direct to the ambulance. I discovered this a couple of years ago when a fellow rider calling for assistance for an injured rider in the middle of nowhere on an audax asked if they wanted him to send them the GPS location and they said no need.
Talk of emergency operator training is missing the point. It's got to be simple for the caller to use in an emergency.
If in a perfect world with great signal for data and GPS that you could send easy to the emergency services, that would be great.
This is why I have an Inreach Explorer+ device. I press the magic button, and hold it for 5 seconds, and a helicopter or other suitable rescue team comes and gets me. Global coverage.
For those talking about RAC et al, there are Hectometer posts every 100m on most big roads, You can then call in and say "M25, near post 12345"
More likely a paramedic on a chopper bike.If in a perfect world with great signal for data and GPS that you could send easy to the emergency services, that would be great.
This is why I have an Inreach Explorer+ device. I press the magic button, and hold it for 5 seconds, and a helicopter or other suitable rescue team comes and gets me. Global coverage.
For those talking about RAC et al, there are Hectometer posts every 100m on most big roads, You can then call in and say "M25, near post 12345" Obviously this doesn't work on the B3149 under a tree...
J
I'v always assumed that was the case, in exactly the same way I assumed that 999 operators were able to use OS grid references. Never tested that theory...
Presumably there's an operator in a callcentre in USAnia or somewhere who deals with the "have you got a postcode?" rubbish for you. From a warm office with a decent internet connection.
I'v always assumed that was the case, in exactly the same way I assumed that 999 operators were able to use OS grid references. Never tested that theory...
More likely a paramedic on a chopper bike.
Not at all lots of countries employ paramedics on bikes in big cities. It is the most sensible approach.
I think you overestimate how many accidents (outside of the mountains) are attended by helicopter. Inreach doesn't give you priority access to helicopters. All they do is ring your local emergency services with your location and possibly no further info. They will then decide the best option based on location and what they know.
Not at all lots of countries employ paramedics on bikes in big cities. It is the most sensible approach.
Wasn't questioning the bike, was questioning the chopper bike. I've seen the bikes LAS and others use, they are impressively setup pieces of kit.QuoteI think you overestimate how many accidents (outside of the mountains) are attended by helicopter. Inreach doesn't give you priority access to helicopters. All they do is ring your local emergency services with your location and possibly no further info. They will then decide the best option based on location and what they know.
I must admit I did get the device primarily for hills/mountains. Hence having that mind set.
J
[What3Birds. This doesn't really exist. It's a parody of the commercial What3Words system, which isn't suitable for this website as it doesn't have a published, open source algorithm. It does, though, work - every postcode on this website has a unique, three bird code. The list of birds was taken (in simplified form) from the British Ornithologists' Union's official list of birds recorded in Britain.Heh.
Poking around on the intarwebs, trying to find a location from a postcode, I stumbled across checkmypostcode.uk which lists various open source location methods. This one caught my eye:Does that system allow you to tweet your location?Quote[What3Birds. This doesn't really exist. It's a parody of the commercial What3Words system, which isn't suitable for this website as it doesn't have a published, open source algorithm. It does, though, work - every postcode on this website has a unique, three bird code. The list of birds was taken (in simplified form) from the British Ornithologists' Union's official list of birds recorded in Britain.Heh.
:hand: ;D :D :D ;DPoking around on the intarwebs, trying to find a location from a postcode, I stumbled across checkmypostcode.uk which lists various open source location methods. This one caught my eye:Does that system allow you to tweet your location?Quote[What3Birds. This doesn't really exist. It's a parody of the commercial What3Words system, which isn't suitable for this website as it doesn't have a published, open source algorithm. It does, though, work - every postcode on this website has a unique, three bird code. The list of birds was taken (in simplified form) from the British Ornithologists' Union's official list of birds recorded in Britain.Heh.
I think you overestimate how many accidents (outside of the mountains) are attended by helicopter.
http://www.what3fucks.com (http://www.what3fucks.com)
http://www.what3fucks.com (http://www.what3fucks.com)
I'm going to run an audax that incorporates this somehow.
I would have though a few tens of kilobytes would be all you would need to store the list of words.
Mind I'm not sure where this DB sits as I believe the translation between Lat, lon and the three words take place on their servers. So the app doesn't really need a copy.
People see it’s called a tourist path so they think it is an easy walk up.”
Harris said there were winds of up to 100mph and windchill was causing temperatures of -20C at the summit. The group was found on steep ice near the summit, and he said going a few metres further would have posed serious risk. “They were lucky in the sense that where they were had phone signal, if it hadn’t, we wouldn’t have known they were there,” he said.
“They certainly wouldn’t have survived the night.”
The group used the what3words app to pinpoint their location.
22 members were involved in the search operation
It isn’t completely pointless. It’s point is to try and make money for the developers.You mean like AML?
Hopefully phone OS manufacturers will develop a system that, with a smile push of a button, or click, (like emergency calling) sends a proper location in a universal format, and puts.the.sword to W3W
It isn’t completely pointless. It’s point is to try and make money for the developers.You mean like AML?
Hopefully phone OS manufacturers will develop a system that, with a smile push of a button, or click, (like emergency calling) sends a proper location in a universal format, and puts.the.sword to W3W
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Mobile_Location (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Mobile_Location)
But what if there was no mobile signal as is often the case in the mountains and the one with suitable footwear had to abandon the other three at affair.enter.skid to go in search of rescuers or a mobile signal ?It isn’t completely pointless. It’s point is to try and make money for the developers.You mean like AML?
Hopefully phone OS manufacturers will develop a system that, with a smile push of a button, or click, (like emergency calling) sends a proper location in a universal format, and puts.the.sword to W3W
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Mobile_Location (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Mobile_Location)
If that is available from a lock screen, and can be sent semi automatically with one hand, whatever the OS of the phone, yes.
But what if there was no mobile signal as is often the case in the mountains and the one with suitable footwear had to abandon the other three at affair.enter.skid to go in search of rescuers or a mobile signal ?
It worked. The emergency services, mountain rescue in particular seem to like it. It has a lot of redundancy.Some mountain rescue teams like it, others have said it is a terrible idea. Are they being sponsored to promote it?
Just 2 of the words and in the wrong order and the fact you were on Ben Nevis would have worked too. Just one of the words and that you were near the summit.How do you figure this out? Do they provide any way of searching for a single part of the code?
QuoteJust 2 of the words and in the wrong order and the fact you were on Ben Nevis would have worked too. Just one of the words and that you were near the summit.How do you figure this out? Do they provide any way of searching for a single part of the code?
There are thousands of possible locations nearby, it will take a while to look up and compare the code for each one. Unless you had access to the API, but What3words might charge for that sort of thing.
I'm now in CoventryQuick! Call the rescue services!
It turns out What3Words claim that if you mishear a word the incorrect location will be obviously wrong is bollocks:
https://cybergibbons.com/security-2/why-what3words-is-not-suitable-for-safety-critical-applications/
This made me laugh:
https://twitter.com/chrki/status/1383465163399917569?s=20
"It says 'ncomprehensibility.floccinaucinihilipilification.antidisestablishmentarianism'"
Is this thing supposed to be used in the non English speaking world, or in places where people tend not to indulge in leisure activities in the middle of nowhere?
9 miles for skipping an "s" at the end of the last word is not that bad! We live in a place in central France where our third word also ends with an "s" . If you skip that letter, I just checked it out, you end up in Saudi Arabia :o
We were out walking with some chums, down at Battle, on the 1066 trail, couple of weeks ago, been t'pub, and half way back, came across a couple of lads, (twins) , on their MTB's, who were staying at t'campsite. any how, one had gone o'er the top, on a speedy descent (tut tut, t'was a footpath) and was in a bad way. One had called his father, who was on his way, lad had concusion,broken wrist, and swollen face, and kept trying to fall asleep. Dad called for medics, and to get his location, we gave the call centre a six figure grid ref off the os map.........silence........wasssat????????, ain't ya got the ''what free words app?' . ??????????????????????
there were 7 adults, and none of us had ever heard of it. Anyway, duly downloaded, in a crap signal area' and the ambulance was waiting on the road, after we walked him in a dozy state, about 2 miles.
The problem is the algorithm offers no guarantee and it's not unusual for misheard pairs to be a couple of miles apart.
People seem to be suggesting using 6 figure grid references as a preference.
I missed a letter out at the beginning!!
The best thing is to phone from a smartphone with AML/ELS enabled so the location is transmitted when the emergency call is made.
Of the billions of 3m squares there are a handful with neighbours but a few miles away with similar names.
The best thing is to phone from a smartphone with AML/ELS enabled so the location is transmitted when the emergency call is made.
...The best thing is to phone from a smartphone with AML/ELS enabled so the location is transmitted when the emergency call is made.
The Wikipedia page implies it is activated automatically on making an emergency call.QuoteThe best thing is to phone from a smartphone with AML/ELS enabled so the location is transmitted when the emergency call is made.
This is the real solution. It's scandalous that it doesn't work routinely.
AML automatically turns on Wi-Fi and location services on the handset, collects and computes location data, then sends an SMS to the emergency services containing the caller's location, before turning location services and Wi-Fi off again.[13]assuming the call is made from an appropriately equipped phone, which is probably most of them in Europe by now:
Google announced in July 2016 that all Android phones running version 2.3.7, Gingerbread (released in December 2010) or later include AML. Google calls their implementation Emergency Location Service (ELS).[5]
Apple devices running iOS 11.3 (released in March 2018) or later also support AML.[6]
If you are asking about what types of smart phone have this enabled, apple for a couple of years. Don’t know about android but I would expect so if it is recent....The best thing is to phone from a smartphone with AML/ELS enabled so the location is transmitted when the emergency call is made.
What smart phone?
Solution looking for monetisation.
Just like IP addresses. Easy to transpose digits.
People seem to be suggesting using 6 figure grid references as a preference.
Yep, because it's unique.
If you are asking about what types of smart phone have this enabled, apple for a couple of years. Don’t know about android but I would expect so if it is recent....The best thing is to phone from a smartphone with AML/ELS enabled so the location is transmitted when the emergency call is made.
What smart phone?
I read it more as "what if your phone is just a phone". I don't have a smartphone, I have no need. I know many other people who just have "a mobile phone".
In that situation I would press the red emergency button on my handheld dsc vhf marine radio. That would contact the coastguard with my location and mayday whilst I carried on frantically fixing the bilge pump.The best thing is to phone from a smartphone with AML/ELS enabled so the location is transmitted when the emergency call is made.
Hello coastguard, my location is https://what3words.com/sensual.hissy.semantic but I have no signal. I am taking on water.
If you don’t have a smart phone the what 3 words is not going to help either, unless you have it on your garmin.If you are asking about what types of smart phone have this enabled, apple for a couple of years. Don’t know about android but I would expect so if it is recent....The best thing is to phone from a smartphone with AML/ELS enabled so the location is transmitted when the emergency call is made.
What smart phone?
I read it more as "what if your phone is just a phone". I don't have a smartphone, I have no need. I know many other people who just have "a mobile phone".
People seem to be suggesting using 6 figure grid references as a preference.
Yep, because it's unique.
People seem to be suggesting using 6 figure grid references as a preference.
Yep, because it's unique.
And unique to the British Isles. If I as a french resident come to the UK and need to contact the rescue services will they accept my Michelin sheet number, fold number, square number as a suitable location (it being wot I'm supposed to know)? Easier to take my paper and pencil, write down the GPS location off my GPS or phone and give them that (assuming that I can speak enough english to know my numbers).
If you have a phone that can get w3w and you have a signal, thenDing! Is the right answer.
1) your phone knows where it is
2) your phone can tell anyone else where it is
No need for a proprietary new system.
Longitude and latitude
People seem to be suggesting using 6 figure grid references as a preference.
Yep, because it's unique.
And unique to the British Isles. If I as a french resident come to the UK and need to contact the rescue services will they accept my Michelin sheet number, fold number, square number as a suitable location (it being wot I'm supposed to know)? Easier to take my paper and pencil, write down the GPS location off my GPS or phone and give them that (assuming that I can speak enough english to know my numbers).
Nah, we'd ask for you credit card number frst ;D
But GPS / Grid reference as AFAIUI similar ways of plotting position.
Longitude and latitude
Four-three-point-two-seven-eight-six-comma-zero-point-four-seven-one.
It's not just the phone though, it depends on the operator's systems. According to Wikipedia as of March 2021 that's most but not all of Europe, Australia, NZ, USA and the UAE. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Mobile_Location#ImplementationsIf you have a phone that can get w3w and you have a signal, thenDing! Is the right answer.
1) your phone knows where it is
2) your phone can tell anyone else where it is
No need for a proprietary new system.
It's not just the phone though, it depends on the operator's systems. According to Wikipedia as of March 2021 that's most but not all of Europe, Australia, NZ, USA and the UAE. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Mobile_Location#ImplementationsIf you have a phone that can get w3w and you have a signal, thenDing! Is the right answer.
1) your phone knows where it is
2) your phone can tell anyone else where it is
No need for a proprietary new system.
Here's a novel idea: what about an app which can send your location from the smartphone where it resides direct to emergency services using whatever the national or international protocol is for where it finds itself using it's inbuilt GPS capabilities?
The app should be easy to use: open app, press big red "emergency" button. App rings local emergency services and both displays (for reading) and sends (if the local emergency services are equipped for receiving this information) location data at the touch of the big green button which appears when you are connected to the local emergency services depending again upon local capabilities.
I am pretty sure that there are people and organisations who are au fait with the procedures for contacting somebody in an emergency wherever they are on the planet so just build it into a smartphone app.
What really concerns me about this is the increasing reliance upon technology.
AIUI, the emergency services in UK are trained in passing on and using all manner of available resources. In 1998 my friend used map coordinates taken from an OS 1:50,000 supplemented by a detailed outline of the local area. When I last had cause to call 999 I was able to give a location as the roundabout at the south end of Murray Road in Rugby and the emergency services duly arrived.
Not to worry, if you've had the Covid vaccine, the microchip now swishing around inside you will constantly emit a signal so your exact location will always be known. All you have to do is tell the emergency services your name and they'll know exactly where you are!;D Bobb has solved the problem and won an internet!
It would appear that some rescue services are not so keen.
BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-57156797)
It would appear that some rescue services are not so keen.
BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-57156797)
From reading that article it shows that W3W is not perfect but it's still more realistic than expecting the average person in the street (or on the fells) to be able to use a map and compass and latitude/longitude. Notwithstanding some of the similar local W3W confusions most of the errors could have been trapped when the call was first captured. If someone is calling 999 and giving a location in Vietnam I would have hoped that a few further questions would be asked. And the errors from local accents or mispronunciation are surely less than lat/long plotting errors, misheard numbers or transposed digits.
Roll on a universal kocation method installed as a part of the OS, that sends the location to the emergency services.Ordnance Survey or operating system?
It would appear that some rescue services are not so keen.
BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-57156797)
From reading that article it shows that W3W is not perfect but it's still more realistic than expecting the average person in the street (or on the fells) to be able to use a map and compass and latitude/longitude. Notwithstanding some of the similar local W3W confusions most of the errors could have been trapped when the call was first captured. If someone is calling 999 and giving a location in Vietnam I would have hoped that a few further questions would be asked. And the errors from local accents or mispronunciation are surely less than lat/long plotting errors, misheard numbers or transposed digits.
The difference is that a slightly wrong lat-long will still be very close to the correct location.
W3W said human error was "a possibility with any type of tool".
yeah, it should be that when you dial 999/112/911 from a smart phone the location is just passed over right away.I agree. I thought that the requirement for that was why phones ended up with GPS receivers, as cell location is only accurate to 10s of metres in towns.
For the umpteenth time: The phones can already do it. It's called AML and it's in all the recent Android and IOS builds, and doesn't require the user to do anything other than call the emergency services. The problem is that for some reason the BRITISH emergency services haven't got the required systems at their end to receive the location. Furthermore, some of them seem to have bought into W3W as an inferior solution to a solved problem.
Yes. But as we have seen with so many things. AML is not invented here. There for it is not suitable. The solution used by the British emergency services needs to be created by British people, using British brains and British ideas. We can't just adopt an international standard without at least making an incompatible version...
w3w sounds brilliant and is marketed.
AML sounds dull and isn't marketed.
There are alternative systems such as OS Locate, a free app provided by Ordnance Survey, that allows people to locate themselves by GPS latitude and longitude co-ordinates as well as altitude, even without a mobile signal.Googling "phone finder" gets you, surprise surprise, comparison sites for buying phones.
Sarloc and Phone Finder are tools that have been developed by mountain rescue team members, and these are used whenever possible to obtain an accurate location.
For the umpteenth time: The phones can already do it. It's called AML (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Mobile_Location) and it's in all the recent Android and IOS builds, and doesn't require the user to do anything other than call the emergency services. The problem is that for some reason the BRITISH emergency services haven't got the required systems at their end to receive the location. Furthermore, some of them seem to have bought into W3W as an inferior solution to a solved problem.
(Yes, this doesn't solve the problem of locating dumbphone users. But neither does W3W. We still need operators who can understand map coordinates. Older smartphones that don't have AML but can run W3W are an edge case.)
w3w sounds brilliant and is marketed.
AML sounds dull and isn't marketed.
W3W wasn't created by one of Hancock's mates down the pub was it?'Created by a BBC employee, and now part owned by Channel 4. They know how to get as much publicity as possible.
W3W wasn't created by one of Hancock's mates down the pub was it?'Created by a BBC employee, and now part owned by Channel 4. They know how to get as much publicity as possible.
Jack Waley-Cohen has worked as a question editor for Only Connect.
... expecting the average person in the street (or on the fells) to be able to use a map and compass ...
... expecting the average person in the street (or on the fells) to be able to use a map and compass ...
Actually, in my view, if you are going up a hill/fell/mountain you should be able to use a map and compass and be able to give a grid reference for where you are.
Just like if you are going to be put in charge of a ton of dangerous machinery you should be trained to use it.
... expecting the average person in the street (or on the fells) to be able to use a map and compass ...
Actually, in my view, if you are going up a hill/fell/mountain you should be able to use a map and compass and be able to give a grid reference for where you are.
Just like if you are going to be put in charge of a ton of dangerous machinery you should be trained to use it.
Yep.
Are you moving when you check compass function?Moving or stopped. I think it's just because the phone itself is old and fairly basic, as smarties go, like Feanor says.
The OS Locate app for smartphones (free) provides a compass and a location in OSGB Grid Ref.The compass emulator looks nifty. It has a rotatable bezel.
Needs no phone signal, it just does a Co-ordinate Reference System transform from the GPS WGS-84 to OSGB.
It's a handy companion app to a map and compass.
It's also got a view which emulates a classic Silva compass ( including the Silva logo )!
Are you moving when you check compass function?Moving or stopped. I think it's just because the phone itself is old and fairly basic, as smarties go, like Feanor says.
Finally got round to putting in my address into what3words to see what came up. Seems a good idea. Nice and concise and easy to remember: cunt.lives.here
Finally got round to putting in my address into what3words to see what came up. Seems a good idea. Nice and concise and easy to remember: cunt.lives.here
You do not live in downing street.
Nice try tho.
J
To: Rapha London
I might have undertaken your compass challenge, but I cannot condone what 3 words. Really? Here in the UK where the Ordnance Survey provide beautiful, accurate maps, you choose to use some monetising app-based triumph of form over function.
What a load of shite.
Hi $RealName,
We apologise for disappointing you but like 100 of the UK's emergency services we also find the app extremely useful.
We hope you'll join a challenge in the future.
All the best,
So where is AML going wrong in the UK? Why is it not being used? It's in most phones, so that's probably not the problem. Do emergency operators have the facility to use it? And if so, how do they get it to the actual emergency personnel? When you make an emergency call in the UK, you speak to an operator, who then alerts the relevant emergency service(s): I'm not sure if the operator passes your location and problem to the ambulance/fire/police/etc dispatchers who then pass it on to the relevant persons or if the operator contacts the personnel directly, but is this step the problem? The operator's equipment has the location from AML but they need something verbal to give to the cops and rescuers?
My best guess is that someone at W3W has recognised the commercial value of making sure it can be done easily, so they have borne the cost of implementing it. Maybe the problem is that there's no commercial incentive for doing the same for AML.
OTOH if AML transmits the location as, say, lat/long, then it really should be usable by the emergency crews.
What form does AML send your location in? If it's done by triangulation from cellphone towers, presumably it's three strings of digits. That could be texted to the crews but they then need a way of relating that to the ground. Whereas three words can be easily texted or repeated verbally and located via the app. OTOH if AML transmits the location as, say, lat/long, then it really should be usable by the emergency crews.
My guess would be W3W has been "integrated" via the operator copy and pasting values into their website
One of the things that irritated me was the route planning part.
Give me a grid reference and I can choose way there on the same map.
Apparently I'd need to ask the app to navigate me to the point using google maps :sick:
There are over 100 emergency services in the UK? :boggle:
What form does AML send your location in? If it's done by triangulation from cellphone towers, presumably it's three strings of digits. That could be texted to the crews but they then need a way of relating that to the ground. Whereas three words can be easily texted or repeated verbally and located via the app. OTOH if AML transmits the location as, say, lat/long, then it really should be usable by the emergency crews.
ETA: to answer your first question: "The services uses either a global navigation satellite system or WiFi depending on which one is better at the given moment."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Mobile_Location
What is the line of communication between 999 operators and ambulance drivers? How is the information passed along?
In theory, sending a text message is simple enough, but how does the operator know which ambulance driver to send it to, let alone have their mobile phone number?
Fire. Ambulance. Police. Coastguard.
I make 4 - any advance on that?
Fire. Ambulance. Police. Coastguard.
I make 4 - any advance on that?
Fire. Ambulance. Police. Coastguard.
I make 4 - any advance on that?
Don't forget the AA! ;)
Fire. Ambulance. Police. Coastguard.
I make 4 - any advance on that?
Don't forget the AA! ;)
But as QG says, for the purposes of this discussion, each regional service operator is counted as a separate entity.
I don't think anyone's mentioned the other advantage of AML over systems like SARLOC or W3W: It doesn't require *any* interaction with the user, which means it works if they're unable or unwilling to speak/read/type. Just starting an emergency call is enough.
Consider people with communication impairments or are too seriously injured to communicate; people who don't speak English; those covertly calling for help at the scene of a crime; toddlers calling 999 cos they learned it on Fireman Sam when their parent collapses, etc.
Papa Johns is the fourth emergency service of the apocalypse. (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=117026.0)
From the screen shot shown it looks like the CAD systems are so shit that they are pasting the W3W address directly into thedatabasefree text field and expecting crews on the ground to use it. WTF?
Fire. Ambulance. Police. Coastguard.
I make 4 - any advance on that?
I guess it is all free market forces.
"Hello, I need the Police please. Could you send me some Northumberland Police, they are much better than the Met."
I'm pretty sure it has been mentioned already in this thread, but it bears repeating.I don't think anyone's mentioned the other advantage of AML over systems like SARLOC or W3W: It doesn't require *any* interaction with the user, which means it works if they're unable or unwilling to speak/read/type. Just starting an emergency call is enough.
Consider people with communication impairments or are too seriously injured to communicate; people who don't speak English; those covertly calling for help at the scene of a crime; toddlers calling 999 cos they learned it on Fireman Sam when their parent collapses, etc.
Add people that have difficulty with spelling.
autocarrot too - is that a thing in w3w world?
I think ambulances, though not fire brigades or police, are mostly private companies contracting to the NHS.
and now it seems that "local names" are getting added to the OS maps to help emergency services
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-57916520
autocarrot too - is that a thing in w3w world?
This seems entirely appropriate.autocarrot too - is that a thing in w3w world?
I entered my full name and it autocorrected all 3 parts and located me in the Kaliningrad exclave near the Polish border.
and now it seems that "local names" are getting added to the OS maps to help emergency servicesAnd this seems very sensible. Hopefully not just for beaches, either.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-57916520
and now it seems that "local names" are getting added to the OS maps to help emergency services
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-57916520
No navigation app was however required to locate a heat stress casualty on An Teallach last weekend as TMRT were out there on a training exercise, and were the next group along.
Conveniently for the casualty "Slightly surprised patient to find an mrt on the hill just behind them with a paramedic and doctor. New top tip for keeping fluid cold in the heat. Frozen capri suns. Still half
frozen at 2 in the afternoon."
Friend shared that along with pictures of R151
Another subtle dig at W3W by MRTFrom this thread, this is a major difference between mountain rescue and ambulance.
Call out for Tweed Valley Mountain Rescue Team.
Tweed Valley MRT said, “Yesterday we were called to assist with the evacuation of a Mountain Biker in the Innerleithen area who had suffered a head and shoulder injury.
The initial incident location had been established using a popular mobile phone app but this mapped to an area about 1km from the incident site - this anomaly was picked up by our incident manager as the location didn't match the description of where the casualty said they were. Luckily the casualty party had also been able to ascertain an OS Grid reference which allowed us to deploy to the correct location.
We would urge users of mobile phone apps to cross check the position generated by any mapping app with what they understand their location to be and not assume the generated position is 100% accurate.
As an MRT we will always work with the information given to try and get to you as quickly and as safely as possible. Our preference is an OS Grid reference but we can work with any other location format such as Lat/Lon, What3Words, forest marker post numbers, local mountain bike trail names or even a a physical description of where you are.”
#ScottishMR
Tbh, if I phoned up the SAS and they asked me for a W3W location it sounds like I'd be better hanging up and phoning the PolisNo navigation app was however required to locate a heat stress casualty on An Teallach last weekend as TMRT were out there on a training exercise, and were the next group along.
Conveniently for the casualty "Slightly surprised patient to find an mrt on the hill just behind them with a paramedic and doctor. New top tip for keeping fluid cold in the heat. Frozen capri suns. Still half
frozen at 2 in the afternoon."
Friend shared that along with pictures of R151
My main hiking partner in the UK was a member of the local SAR team. We had an understanding that if we had an accident, we couldn't call out SAR, as he'd never live it down. Fortunately we never had to test this.
J
Tbh, if I phoned up the SAS and they asked me for a W3W location it sounds like I'd be better hanging up and phoning the PolisNo navigation app was however required to locate a heat stress casualty on An Teallach last weekend as TMRT were out there on a training exercise, and were the next group along.
Conveniently for the casualty "Slightly surprised patient to find an mrt on the hill just behind them with a paramedic and doctor. New top tip for keeping fluid cold in the heat. Frozen capri suns. Still half
frozen at 2 in the afternoon."
Friend shared that along with pictures of R151
My main hiking partner in the UK was a member of the local SAR team. We had an understanding that if we had an accident, we couldn't call out SAR, as he'd never live it down. Fortunately we never had to test this.
J
My hiking clubs normal times meeting place is the pub owned by one of the local MRT team leaders, we have team members in the club, and we've had a couple of members rescued by them (new members for our buggered ankle sub-club).
As far as I'm aware those sets do not intersect, maybe they'd beg for one of the neighbouring MRT teams to be sent off patch.
Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
Scottish Ambulance Service.Tbh, if I phoned up the SAS and they asked me for a W3W location it sounds like I'd be better hanging up and phoning the PolisNo navigation app was however required to locate a heat stress casualty on An Teallach last weekend as TMRT were out there on a training exercise, and were the next group along.
Conveniently for the casualty "Slightly surprised patient to find an mrt on the hill just behind them with a paramedic and doctor. New top tip for keeping fluid cold in the heat. Frozen capri suns. Still half
frozen at 2 in the afternoon."
Friend shared that along with pictures of R151
My main hiking partner in the UK was a member of the local SAR team. We had an understanding that if we had an accident, we couldn't call out SAR, as he'd never live it down. Fortunately we never had to test this.
J
My hiking clubs normal times meeting place is the pub owned by one of the local MRT team leaders, we have team members in the club, and we've had a couple of members rescued by them (new members for our buggered ankle sub-club).
As far as I'm aware those sets do not intersect, maybe they'd beg for one of the neighbouring MRT teams to be sent off patch.
Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
If you need rescuing by the SAS you’ve got bigger problems to deal with.
Just discovered a cool widget for my Garmin smartwatch that converts GPS data into OS lat long. I have installed it and will test it later.Set Dual Grid as one of the Hot Keys
I understand that it will work on numerous Garmin devices that allow the download of widgets.
OS grid references are a built in feature on most Garmins, don't need to install anything.
OS grid references are a built in feature on most Garmins, don't need to install anything.
Yep been available on consumer GPS for over 20 years now. Together with the map datums for most countries. You want coordinates to match French IGN map grids? No problem etc.
PBs PE watch is a Fenix 6 (as is mine) and OS Grid is there along with all the others :)OS grid references are a built in feature on most Garmins, don't need to install anything.
Yep been available on consumer GPS for over 20 years now. Together with the map datums for most countries. You want coordinates to match French IGN map grids? No problem etc.
Possibly not on the PE watches, though?
Just discovered a cool widget for my Garmin smartwatch that converts GPS data into OS lat long. I have installed it and will test it later.Set Dual Grid as one of the Hot Keys
I understand that it will work on numerous Garmin devices that allow the download of widgets.
Settings->System->Hot Keys
Then
Settings->System->Format->Pos. Format->British Grid
Iain Campbell, AF&RS Station Manager, said: “The police received a call in the early hours of the morning from someone who was concerned about the safety and welfare of their friend.https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/incredible-photo-drone-finds-missing-6180615
"Using WhatsApp and What3Words, the caller gave Police details of the last known location of their friend, a remote area of farmland with rivers and streams nearby. It was dark, there was fog, and the temperature was colder than normal.
At the end of the clip Mears then told us how great what 3 words was in helping to record the locations of such suspected crimes, neatly forgetting/ignoring the fact that any photo taken on a smart phone will have location data added to it automagically. Presumably he's getting paid for such promotion.
Good point. Is "it's trivial to attach location data to a photo taken on a smart phone without resorting to a third party app" more accurate?At the end of the clip Mears then told us how great what 3 words was in helping to record the locations of such suspected crimes, neatly forgetting/ignoring the fact that any photo taken on a smart phone will have location data added to it automagically. Presumably he's getting paid for such promotion.
Not true. Many people turn that off intentionally for security reasons.
J
Good point. Is "it's trivial to attach location data to a photo taken on a smart phone without resorting to a third party app" more accurate?
Surely on most phones location is differentially configurable by app? So you can allow the camera to record location while denying it to others, if you so want. Though your phone surely knows where it is all the time, as long as it's receiving a signal, so I'm not sure how much security you're getting yourself anyway.
The security isn't so much that you don't trust the camera app, but that you don't want to inadvertently share your location by forgetting to redact the EXIF data from some otherwise non-location-revealing photo before sharing it.
The security isn't so much that you don't trust the camera app, but that you don't want to inadvertently share your location by forgetting to redact the EXIF data from some otherwise non-location-revealing photo before sharing it.
The security isn't so much that you don't trust the camera app, but that you don't want to inadvertently share your location by forgetting to redact the EXIF data from some otherwise non-location-revealing photo before sharing it.
What Kim said.
If I want to tweet a photo from somewhere, I don't want to give away that location.
J
Sorry for possibly being dim, but why not? What's the point in sharing a photo without revealing its location?
Twitter / Facebook strip all of the EXIF data from the photo anyway. So it is not giving away the location (unless you add a location tag to your post).The security isn't so much that you don't trust the camera app, but that you don't want to inadvertently share your location by forgetting to redact the EXIF data from some otherwise non-location-revealing photo before sharing it.
What Kim said.
If I want to tweet a photo from somewhere, I don't want to give away that location.
J
Twitter / Facebook strip all of the EXIF data from the photo anyway. So it is not giving away the location (unless you add a location tag to your post).
Sorry for possibly being dim, but why not? What's the point in sharing a photo without revealing its location?
For most of those, probably yes.Twitter / Facebook strip all of the EXIF data from the photo anyway. So it is not giving away the location (unless you add a location tag to your post).
Does every system? Telegram? Discord? Signal? Mattermost? Slack?
For most of those, probably yes.
If you are using some obscure system for sharing photos, I'm sure you can figure out how to strip the EXIF data yourself.
Most photos could be improved with a bit of editing/cropping etc, or at least reducing the resolution before sharing. So pretty simple to remove tags as part of that.
Twitter / Facebook strip all of the EXIF data from the photo anyway. So it is not giving away the location (unless you add a location tag to your post).
Does every system? Telegram? Discord? Signal? Mattermost? Slack?Sorry for possibly being dim, but why not? What's the point in sharing a photo without revealing its location?
This is Spook the racoon stealing my cider.
[redacted]
You don't need to know the lat and long coordinates of my sofa. Noone does.
J
Twitter / Facebook strip all of the EXIF data from the photo anyway. So it is not giving away the location (unless you add a location tag to your post).
Does every system? Telegram? Discord? Signal? Mattermost? Slack?Sorry for possibly being dim, but why not? What's the point in sharing a photo without revealing its location?
This is Spook the racoon stealing my cider.
[redacted]
You don't need to know the lat and long coordinates of my sofa. Noone does.
J
I remove the location data from Mrs P's Flickr postings of our house/garden/cats.
The security isn't so much that you don't trust the camera app, but that you don't want to inadvertently share your location by forgetting to redact the EXIF data from some otherwise non-location-revealing photo before sharing it.
What Kim said.
If I want to tweet a photo from somewhere, I don't want to give away that location.
J
Sorry for possibly being dim, but why not? What's the point in sharing a photo without revealing its location?
The idea that it’s desirable or even necessary to share your location via a photo on Twitter is just plain weird to me.
#InNairnNot something many people boast about.
Besides, it is missing two words.Bored.In.Nairn
But you've got your phone no. and/or email address on the start-up screen of your GPS. I know you have because it was you who alerted me to the possibility of doing this. Which means anyone who finds your Garmin could not only trace routes back to your house but also has your phone no and/or email and could, if they so wish, send you abusive messages and/or hack your ID. But you said, on this very point, that "most people are honest", which I agree with but seems to contradict your first point above.Sorry for possibly being dim, but why not? What's the point in sharing a photo without revealing its location?
"Hey, YACF: Here's a photo of the widget on my $expensive_new_ebike ..is the metal bit supposed to be loose like that?"
AKA: "Badly locked $expensive_new_ebike at these coordinates"
Or just letting your abusive family / stalker /etc know where you live now because it's in the EXIF of all the in-progress photos of the art project you've been working on.
Personally, I'd like a geofence option. If I'm on a cycle tour or collecting evidence of fly-tipping or water leaks or something, the EXIF location data is useful. But if I'm at home, it probably isn't.
If I were an emergency services operator I would mostly be outraged that the system to get the device location to the operator’s screen automatically doesn’t function. Getting excited about a total hack seems perverse.
This
The objection is the emergency services being complicit in promoting it as if it's the only/best way to obtain your location using a smartphone. That's actively dangerous, because it's not actually a very good way of doing it, for all the reasons discussed. Which raises the question of why they're doing it.
.
If I were an emergency services operator I would mostly be outraged that the system to get the device location to the operator’s screen automatically doesn’t function. Getting excited about a total hack seems perverse.And for landlines too, I'd hope.
If I were an emergency services operator I would mostly be outraged that the system to get the device location to the operator’s screen automatically doesn’t function. Getting excited about a total hack seems perverse.And for landlines too, I'd hope.
There are also systems built into any phone that should allow the emergency services to see where a smartphone call is coming from, but those don't seem to be used.
I hope I'm not the only one, but I just don't understand it. Looked at my own address, and it said: 'bollocks, knob, cheese'.I still don't get it.
Before W3W, I once tried to report an accident and the emergency operator couldn't accept either lat/long or the A and B numbers of the roads involved. They wanted the road names or the postcode. The roads involved changed names several times along their length, and their names were quite common so were repeated in lots of places, and I didn't know their names at every place, even though I drove them quite often. I found it very stressful.
The problem with W3W is when emergency operators won't accept other methods and demand that someone in crisis downloads an app, and then tells the app the numbers that they could have told the emergency services. It's a non-trivial download, that users may have to pay for the data for, when actually anyone can go to the W3W website and convert any lat/long, postcode, address etc to a W3W code.
There are also systems built into any phone that should allow the emergency services to see where a smartphone call is coming from, but those don't seem to be used.
It's good if W3W can be added to existing methods of location, but it seems to be being added at the expense of other systems.
I would fully agree that nobody should be forced to download an app but I don’t in reality believe that happens either. Control rooms default to normal addresses and if they can’t locate you using that will despatch a best guess set of resources and then work with you to locate you using a variety of methods from local knowledge to technology, of which W3W is only one option you may be offered.
The one I do care about is the evidence that in a few cases their closed algorithm has assigned almost identical 3 word addresses to geographically very close locations.
I would fully agree that nobody should be forced to download an app but I don’t in reality believe that happens either. Control rooms default to normal addresses and if they can’t locate you using that will despatch a best guess set of resources and then work with you to locate you using a variety of methods from local knowledge to technology, of which W3W is only one option you may be offered.
I've called in with lay/long. It was for a heath fire near Canterbury a few years back. I used latlong as my etrex at the time was set to that mode. And I couldn't change it and talk to 999 at the same time.The one I do care about is the evidence that in a few cases their closed algorithm has assigned almost identical 3 word addresses to geographically very close locations.
This was the big thing that changed my view. If you read back you'll see I was a great fan of w3w originally. But I am decidedly less impressed now I'm seeing more of it.
The fact they also have too much similarity on some words just feels like bad design.
I find myself wondering if there.their.they're is valid... Or check.cheque.czech...
J
3 There are lots of claims out there about automatic phone location. Only handsets sold after March 2022 have to offer the capability of sending handset derived location data to the emergency services though many did before this. It requires an SMS or data connection afaik. It’s a European directive that we make use of this I think so … brexit….hmmm who knows.It was invented by BT in 2014, years before it became an EU standard. Surely that makes it British enough?
Also it will no doubt require systems upgrades in control centres that will be expensive and probably unfunded so may take time.
It's become quite popular with Deliveroo customers, the under 25's anyway, they include it in the delivery notes. I'd never had that a year ago, now it's on about 20% of orders, it's certainly better than the apps own locator. Straight to the door, instead of about the right street and going up and down looking for numbers... I wouldn't want to rely on it in a life threatening situation, though it can slightly improve the chances of your burger still being lukewarm and your drink a little less spilt, which for some seems to be a satisfactory outcome.
Having thought on this, the big issue here is that we appear to be using / pushing an incorrect solution in W3W to cover for the fact we haven’t implemented AML.
Git isn't professional software
Having thought on this, the big issue here is that we appear to be using / pushing an incorrect solution in W3W to cover for the fact we haven’t implemented AML.
I absolutely agree with your point here.
Why not adopt AML? Why W3W?
My guess, purely based on experience, is that the people who make these decisions simply don't understand technology. W3W have very good marketing and it is simple to demonstrate. Doesn't make it good, but . . .
I might make a few discrete enquiries when I next speak with an appropriate person and see if they are able to shed any light.
That is a mixture of good news and 'expected as usual' for underfunded IT implementations.I might make a few discrete enquiries when I next speak with an appropriate person and see if they are able to shed any light.
Well, I struck lucky with my first enquiry. The answers I got were :
- AML is working and we can access the endpoint and extract the data
- Our existing control room system integrates with the AML endpoint
- The installation of our existing control room system has, right from day 1 been subject to crashes, freezes and go slows. The reasons behind this have never been successfully dealt with. There are a number of functions that the service would like to turn on but whenever they try, the system threatens to fall over so they remain inactive despite the fact that they would be extremely valuable to us.
- The requirements for the new system included the proven ability to implement AML.
I was aware that another important function promised with this system back on 2014 had never materialised but wasn’t aware that multiple bits of functionality had been affected. No doubt incredibly frustrating for those involved and for frontline staff and imho a complete shambles that has dragged on far too long. Surely the nettle should have been grasped long ago and if a fix couldn’t be found then a new solution should have been sought? Or is that a naive viewpoint?
Just as an aside, I checked the current marketing brochure of the system we currently use and no mention of AML integration but it does bring the prospective purchaser’s attention to “ What3Words integration for location finding”.
Nothing wrong with using both; it would be good practice to cross check the location from AML against other information
One high-tech employer I had was looking into a new source control system. They rejected Git, becauseQuoteGit isn't professional software
Total ignorance. Git doesn't have a slick marketing department that takes you to nice lunches.
Is it possible to find out how the control room staff can retrieve the AML information?
Is it possible to find out how the control room staff can retrieve the AML information?
It may be possible. I think I have a contact who may know the answer to that but I may not get the opportunity to speak with them for a few days due to annual leave.
The 2021 accounts for @what3words are out.
They lost over £43,000,000 in a year.
Turnover fell.
WTF did they spend £43m on.
Their technology hasn't really changed in 5 years and doesn't have concurrency to worry about.
So basically this is marketing and peeing up the wall.
Strewth… that’s not a business. I’ve seen money laundering fronts with better finances.
So, it was always about raising investor capital, rather than providing a useful service? Shocking.Such
Ghana presents one such example. The country launched a smart initiative in 2017: a digital system to give every urban property an address. It’s a phone-based application which is designed to locate features anywhere in Ghana. The address is presented in alpha-numeric format (such as EY-0329-2478) and shows details such as the region and the metropolitan, municipal and district authority. It also shows the street name of the feature (a house or church, for example) and displays its coordinates.https://theconversation.com/ghana-digitised-its-address-system-its-failure-offers-lessons-to-other-african-countries-creating-smart-cities-194454
Individuals can generate their own address and sometimes officials visit a property, generate the digital address for that property and supply the occupants with a tag, or physical label, to affix to the property.
Walkers in the UK have been warned not to rely on smartphones to find their way on hills and mountains, and instead learn to use a map and compass, amid an increase in calls to rescue services.https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/27/walkers-upland-britain-told-not-rely-on-smartphones-rescuers-compass-maps
QuoteWalkers in the UK have been warned not to rely on smartphones to find their way on hills and mountains, and instead learn to use a map and compass, amid an increase in calls to rescue services.https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/27/walkers-upland-britain-told-not-rely-on-smartphones-rescuers-compass-maps
Some friends of mine were up in the hills in Scotland last week and had cause to call 999. Initially they were asked for a w3w string which confused them somewhat. They offered a 6 figure map reference which then confused the call handler as it only had 6 figures...
I think the practice now is to give OS grid refs to 8 figs. Another case of spurious precision, usually.
I think the practice now is to give OS grid refs to 8 figs. Another case of spurious precision, usually.
8 digits (i.e. the 4 most significant digits of the northing and easting) would give both to the nearest 100 metres. That doesn't sound like "spurious precision" to me.
8 figure references as you describe are unique. Presumably the first significant figure of the Easting and Northing does the job of the two letter square reference.
I did.I think the practice now is to give OS grid refs to 8 figs. Another case of spurious precision, usually.
8 digits (i.e. the 4 most significant digits of the northing and easting) would give both to the nearest 100 metres. That doesn't sound like "spurious precision" to me.
<egg sucking lesson>
It looks like there's two understandings of 8 figure map reference. I think Cudzo means 6 figure (100m) precision then precision down to 10m.
You need the letters at the beginning of the NGR.
Some friends of mine were up in the hills in Scotland last week and had cause to call 999. Initially they were asked for a w3w string which confused them somewhat. They offered a 6 figure map reference which then confused the call handler as it only had 6 figures...
Perhaps the system needed to know which map square it was in and was expecting the two-letter prefix that a human would know automatically on account of which hills were being discussed?
Yes, there can be some confusion around OSGB co-ordinates.Useful post.
Eg the summit of Ben Macdui is at WGS84: 57.070419, -3.669233
Looking at an OS Map, using traditional 6-fig grid ref it is at NN988989
This grid ref has a 100m x 100m resolution, which is useful enough for paper maps.
Some co-ordinate conversion tools will convert the WGS84 to OSGB as 298891, 798948
The leading 2 and 7 define the NN 100k grid, per the picture above.
The additional 2 digits at the end (xxxx91, xxxx89) increase the resolution down to 1m x 1m, which is in the same order of magnitude as typical GPS accuracy ( say 3 to 5 m with a good sky view ).
The confusion with OSGB co-ords lies in whether the initial digit is the 100k square designator, or if it's the start of a higher-resolution co-ordinate within the 100k square.
The confusion with OSGB co-ords lies in whether the initial digit is the 100k square designator, or if it's the start of a higher-resolution co-ordinate within the 100k square.
Six figures plus letters is the format used by the OS Locate app.
Six figures plus letters is the format used by the OS Locate app.You can set it to 8 or 10 figures if you want. And if you use the "share" button, it defaults to 10 figures anyway.
Gosh! Had a poke around and so it does. Also lat/long if preferred. All cunningly hidden under the 'About' button.Six figures plus letters is the format used by the OS Locate app.You can set it to 8 or 10 figures if you want. And if you use the "share" button, it defaults to 10 figures anyway.
Just seen an advert from the OS. Is this a consequence of the money thrown at W3W…?It is a consequence of their new marketing team.
Just seen an advert from the OS. Is this a consequence of the money thrown at W3W…?It is a consequence of their new marketing team.
I might make a few discrete enquiries when I next speak with an appropriate person and see if they are able to shed any light.
Well, I struck lucky with my first enquiry. The answers I got were :
- AML is working and we can access the endpoint and extract the data
- Our existing control room system integrates with the AML endpoint
- The installation of our existing control room system has, right from day 1 been subject to crashes, freezes and go slows. The reasons behind this have never been successfully dealt with. There are a number of functions that the service would like to turn on but whenever they try, the system threatens to fall over so they remain inactive despite the fact that they would be extremely valuable to us.
- The requirements for the new system included the proven ability to implement AML.
I was aware that another important function promised with this system back on 2014 had never materialised but wasn’t aware that multiple bits of functionality had been affected. No doubt incredibly frustrating for those involved and for frontline staff and imho a complete shambles that has dragged on far too long. Surely the nettle should have been grasped long ago and if a fix couldn’t be found then a new solution should have been sought? Or is that a naive viewpoint?
Just as an aside, I checked the current marketing brochure of the system we currently use and no mention of AML integration but it does bring the prospective purchaser’s attention to “ What3Words integration for location finding”.
My only issue now is that the postal address this gps coordinate was converted to was inaccurate by a good 5 miles. Not sure if this was due to an incorrect address given by the caller or whether the system somehow assigned an wrong address but fortunately the attending resources were chosen based on the gps coordinates.
My only issue now is that the postal address this gps coordinate was converted to was inaccurate by a good 5 miles. Not sure if this was due to an incorrect address given by the caller or whether the system somehow assigned an wrong address but fortunately the attending resources were chosen based on the gps coordinates.
W3W also suffers from this, so I think that the problem is in the mapping of locations to postal addresses.
They need a version that works underground... and think of the cave rescue potential!
I'm sure it doesn't work underground, because as you say, it needs to sight GPS satellites. It was just a poor attempt at humour, because when w3w started up, their use case was deliveries in address-less Mongolian nomadice settlements; I was saying there's not much money in that, but if they could get a big business using it... (Oyu Tolgoi is a huge copper mine in Mongolia run by Rio Tinto)They need a version that works underground... and think of the cave rescue potential!
Does it? How?
I thought it was just a proprietary method of encoding an existing GPS lat/long into words because people are too stupid to type the numbers.
Still requires a GPS lat/long in the first instance.
Or have I misunderstood what.this.thing does?
When talking scathingly to No1Daughter about this yesterday she said it was great for them at Eastern Concrete because you couldn't rely on the doofus at the corner of the field having an address or enough nous to share a series of numbers. I explained that you don't need the numbers, the smartphone shares them. But she pointed out that the concrete truck despatch & planning would need to have software that decoded the message for the doofus driving the concrete truck. I asked if the business had paid for software to use what 3 words and she said no, she used her phone. Which is another reason they haven't made money, businesses who use it don't pay for it.So now they pump a w3w location into the app, get routing via google, and drive a concrete lorry over a bridge with a 3 ton weight restriction.
I asked what they'd used before W3W and the answer was doofus had to phone and talk to driver doofus and give directions.
That's good to hear. Apart from the postal address thing. TBH, converting map coordinates to postal addresses is always going to be a bit sketchy, so I'd hope the system wasn't doing that automatically, and was merely passing through something reported by the caller.It would be simple enough for a fire service or other similar body to set up. They are PSGA members, so have access to the full national address gazetteer. Either download the data for the area (updated every 6 weeks) or use the API (https://osdatahub.os.uk/docs/places/gettingStarted).
necessarily resolve the issue.
Main bug bear with W3W (proprietary nature aside) is word length.
For some places, it's a lot of characters to exchange phonetically, which in a situation where communications are a compromise (national disaster/large scale emergency), phonetics are important.
The other, perhaps slightly less important concern, is relaying W3W locations between speakers of different languages. I undersand W3W is available in 50 different languages but that doesn't necessarily resolve the issue.Yes, W3W is available in a variety of languages. But that's not much use if you want to share your location with someone using it in a different language. And doing a word for word translation would give you a completely different location.
Wow, it's a pile of steaming shite isn't it? Tried to use it tonight to report a fixthathole. Great idea, great implementation of the grid but the human wank-stains running it really need a life. FFS, I find a spot on the map through their web shite and I can't even copy the text three words of the location to pass on. Click here to create an account. Click here to provide your credit card details, DoB, address, shoe size & grandparents maiden names. Monetization appears to be the 1st goal, 2nd goal, 3rd goal and every goal down to infinity. I hope it implodes when the vulture capital runs out.
There's probably a blocker add on for firefox that would block the blocker script that's blocking me copying the three words. But really, I'd rather sit & laugh while they burn & use OS grid or Lat/Long.
Twats.
To be fair, if you're finding a spot on the map, you ought to be able to click on the one on thePotholeMan3000FillThatHole website and have it automagically convert that into whatever internal coordinate representation it uses without you having to care about coordinates of any kind.
Prior experience of reporting water leaks suggests this is me being wholly unrealistic.
Did you try clicking the copy button that they have conveniently placed alongside the three words?Ah. Er, no. :facepalm: The symbol is of course obvious now.
You can indeed click on the map to place a marker but it doesn't give you the coordinates. There is also a text box where you are asked to describe the location beneath which:To be fair, if you're finding a spot on the map, you ought to be able to click on the one on thePotholeMan3000FillThatHole website and have it automagically convert that into whatever internal coordinate representation it uses without you having to care about coordinates of any kind.
Prior experience of reporting water leaks suggests this is me being wholly unrealistic.
In FillThatHole you can indeed click a point on the map and it does indeed place a marker there and store its location in the report. Whether the hole gets sorted is another matter entirely.
Please assume that the authority is unable to view the map above, and only has this description to find the hazard. Ideally specify the placename, road name, and nearby house number.
Locating yourself in an emergency.
A story did the rounds earlier this month that Ordnance Survey was discontinuing the OS Locate app for Android phones. Search and rescue teams have long recommended OS Locate for finding and reporting your position in an emergency. It has the advantage of giving the location in the standard OS Grid Reference format, so there's no need to do any 'translation' from another format.
OS Locate also takes the position directly from the GPS in the phone, rather than from the centre of the map on the screen. Other apps, including the widely promoted What3Words, can misreport your position if you accidentally shift the map, easily enough done in a downpour and under stressful circumstances. There have been several cases of rescue teams looking for casualties several kilometres away from the actual location and this is very likely the cause.
Fortunately OS Locate seems to have got a reprieve and is still available on the Google app store as well as on the Apple store. It might be a good time to install it. It's free and takes up very little space. You may want to go to Settings in the app and set the grid reference format to 8 or 10 figures, so you can report your location to 10 or even 1 square metre.
Complainant contends that the disputed domain name [whatfreewords.net] is confusingly similar to Complainant’s distinctive WHATTHREEWORDS trademark as the disputed domain name is aurally and visually similar to the WHATTHREEWORDS mark. In that regard, Complainant further contends that the terms “three” and “free” are phonetically identical and indistinguishable when enunciated.
To be fair, if you're finding a spot on the map, you ought to be able to click on the one on theMy employer's Report A Thing service converts the map point into latitude and longitude, which is supplied to the relevant persons.PotholeMan3000FillThatHole website and have it automagically convert that into whatever internal coordinate representation it uses without you having to care about coordinates of any kind.
Prior experience of reporting water leaks suggests this is me being wholly unrealistic.
To be fair, if you're finding a spot on the map, you ought to be able to click on the one on theMy employer's Report A Thing service converts the map point into latitude and longitude, which is supplied to the relevant persons.PotholeMan3000FillThatHole website and have it automagically convert that into whatever internal coordinate representation it uses without you having to care about coordinates of any kind.
Prior experience of reporting water leaks suggests this is me being wholly unrealistic.