Bus lane petition, please sign

[spindrift]

Bus lane petition:

London Cycling Campaign - Stop Boris Johnson risking lives with decision on motorbikes in bus lanes

[spindrift]

Hello everybody, by the way. I was newtyres on the old ACF before the mysterious cull that i still don't understand. Less said the better.

Mebbe see some of you perverts and malcontents at the next CM.

Boomshanka.

[Wendy]

Have signed.

[Charlotte]

I don't think I agree with that.

Ridden carefully, PTWs in the bus lanes are okay.  I'd like to see more policing of bad riders than just keeping them out.

[rogerzilla]

They do it in Swindon with no apparent problems, but there are relatively few motorbikes or cyclists here; it's also not necessary to use bus lanes to get anywhere if you're cycling, because there are alternative psycle routes, and you see few cyclists on the bus-laned roads.

[Wendy]

As an ex-biker, the bits that convinced me were:

SimonLx's points in another place about how this will intimidate many ordinary riders out of bus lanes and off their bikes.
PTWs being over represented in accidents involving pedestrians and cyclists.
Experience of more than half the riders on my commute passing me passing me badly.

[rae]

Never had a problem with motorbikes.    I think it will be fine.   I'd rather have motorcycles in bus lanes than the bloody buses.

[Charlotte]

I'd rather have motorcycles in bus lanes than the bloody buses.

Quite.

I remain unconvinced on either argument.

What I don't like is Bozzer just banning stuff.  You need studies, consultation, projections and evidence.

[hellymedic]

They do it in Swindon with no apparent problems, but there are relatively few motorbikes or cyclists here; it's also not necessary to use bus lanes to get anywhere if you're cycling, because there are alternative psycle routes, and you see few cyclists on the bus-laned roads.

There are cycle route alternatives to Finchley Road, The signage is intermittent, the route full of turns and so hilly that this is a snip from my David's discussion of it Elsewhere.

<< Same as above. You can turn off at any of these places, or at Platts 
     Lane, but only if you are seriously in training for something 
     involving mountains would you use this route to access West Hampstead 
     or Fortune Green from the south>>

Hampstead is not flat but Finchley Road's gradients are tolerable and the bus lanes make cycling OK. My experience of PTW was that I found some of them did intimidate. It might only be a small minority, but those are the memorable ones.
Unfortunately their over-representation in the KSI stats deters me from wanting to share.

[PhilO]

I don't think I agree with that.

Ridden carefully, PTWs in the bus lanes are okay.  I'd like to see more policing of bad riders than just keeping them out.

+1

...My experience of PTW was that I found some of them did intimidate. It might only be a small minority, but those are the memorable ones...

Which is very similar to the RLJing cyclists line taken by many motorists. 

Unfortunately their over-representation in the KSI stats deters me from wanting to share.

As I understand the argument, this is because filtering is a dangerous activity. Allowing PTWs in bus lanes reduces the amount of filtering to be done, thereby reducing the risk to PTWs and pedestrians crossing through queues. I've no idea how reailistic that is, but as both a cyclist and motorcyclist I can say that it makes sense.

PTWs certainly can pass close, which brings us back to Charlotte's policing point, above. And are they any really any worse that PFWs, or is it just the sound of the 50cc 2-stokes at full chat making people jump?

[Wendy]

With both the LCC and the CTC campaigning against sharing, that's also rather convincing for me.

[andygates]

Motorbikes are fine in bus lanes, yeesh.  Ten years and they never did me any harm.

[Jakob]

PTWs certainly can pass close, which brings us back to Charlotte's policing point, above. And are they any really any worse that PFWs, or is it just the sound of the 50cc 2-stokes at full chat making people jump?

(These abbreviations are silly, no?)

They pass much closer, much faster, with little respect or care.

[Gattopardo]

PTWs certainly can pass close, which brings us back to Charlotte's policing point, above. And are they any really any worse that PFWs, or is it just the sound of the 50cc 2-stokes at full chat making people jump?

(These abbreviations are silly, no?)

They pass much closer, much faster, with little respect or care.

I ride to work and use the bus lanes shared with motorcycles and I've been passed to closley by busses and taxis, not by a motorbike.

And lets not forgot those drivers that turn accross the front of you.

[andygates]

The stats are good.  See the other thread.  It works.

We need an ancronym for bike-special-placeness NIMBYism.  NIMBL? 

Because being precious and handbaggy about something that's proved to work, that doesn't get anyone any respect. 

[rogerzilla]

I had a feeling this thread would cause trouble, since we have some MCists as well as some purists.

In Swindon I think they allow private hire taxis in bus lanes, and that really *is* wrong.

[Gattopardo]

The stats are good.  See the other thread.  It works.

We need an ancronym for bike-special-placeness NIMBYism.  NIMBL? 

Because being precious and handbaggy about something that's proved to work, that doesn't get anyone any respect. 

What we do need is great respect for all road (people) users.

What really annoyed me when I lived in Hackney was a poor chap passed out on a crossing and I stopped and called an ambulance as he'd cut his head.  All the other drivers did was use there horns and shout abuse.  Pedsetrians just side stepped him.  He was a young chap and smartly dressed too.

[andygates]

What we do need is great respect for all road (people) users.

Not disagreeing with that.

Your example is irrelevant to this discussion.

[Gattopardo]

What we do need is great respect for all road (people) users.

Not disagreeing with that.

Your example is irrelevant to this discussion.

That is true, but it is an experience I've had that showed me a lack of respect for another human being.

[Charlotte]

He was a young chap and smartly dressed too.

Not that this should have made a difference.

I've had the same thing - a man unconscious in the middle of the Uxbridge Road in Southall.  Nobody stopped and the cars just drove round him until we got to him and helped him to the pavement.

Then, as we were trying to talk to him, still lying on the ground, dozens of people crowded round to watch.

People are bastards sometimes.

[Gattopardo]

I had a feeling this thread would cause trouble, since we have some MCists as well as some purists.

In Swindon I think they allow private hire taxis in bus lanes, and that really *is* wrong.

Do swindons private hire have to adhere to the same cost rules as 'normal' taxis?  By this i mean pay by time mile basis?

[Regulator]

The stats are good.  See the other thread.  It works.

We need an ancronym for bike-special-placeness NIMBYism.  NIMBL? 

Because being precious and handbaggy about something that's proved to work, that doesn't get anyone any respect. 

Which stats?  If you're talking about the TfL study, then I'm afraid it is widely accepted that the stats aren't good.  I won't rehearse all the arguments here again, but the TfL study was fundamentally flawed - even TfL have admitted that.

There are pressure groups forcing the change - but the changes have nothing to do with safety, but with convenience for certain road user groups. 

[spen666]

I'd rather have motorcycles in bus lanes than the bloody buses.

Quite.

I remain unconvinced on either argument.

What I don't like is Bozzer just banning stuff.  You need studies, consultation, projections and evidence.

surely this is him doing the exact opposite and unbanning something - eg unbanning motorised bicycles from the bus lane

[spen666]

I'd rather have motorcycles in bus lanes than the bloody buses.

Quite.

I remain unconvinced on either argument.

What I don't like is Bozzer just banning stuff.  You need studies, consultation, projections and evidence.

[andygates]

Which stats?  If you're talking about the TfL study, then I'm afraid it is widely accepted that the stats aren't good.  I won't rehearse all the arguments here again, but the TfL study was fundamentally flawed - even TfL have admitted that.

Fair enough.  I'll drop the stats line.  I still don't see the problem, having seen it work just fine for years with everything from bees-in-boxes to superbikes. 

The bus lane's already a "socially better than cars" lane.  Motorbikes fit alongside us in being small, nimble, and smug.  Plus, in many cases, they already use these lanes as the rules vary from place to place.  Unbanning them would just de-criminalise a daft offence.

So far the arguments against motorcycles seem to be (1) they frightens I, master Frodo! and (2) those evil bikers/mopedistas are bad people.  I've yet to see a cogent reason not to allow them to share the space.

Since I've seen it work, I doubt that I will see such a reason.