Author Topic: Are police apathetic in investigating cycling deaths?  (Read 4155 times)

spindrift

Are police apathetic in investigating cycling deaths?
« on: 11 June, 2008, 08:41:33 am »

Helmet comment is extraordinarily daft.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Family of Cambridge student killed on bike hit out at police | News

The parents of a student killed while cycling are set to launch a private legal battle after claiming police failed to investigate his death properly.

Vinnie Carta, 21, from Enfield, a third-year physics student at Cambridge University, was in collision with a car near his student digs as he rode to his part-time job as a children's maths tutor last November.

He suffered massive head injuries, even though he was wearing a helmet, and died in hospital the following day, with his parents at his bedside.

No charges were brought against the driver, who was found to have been doing 48mph inside a 60mph zone, and an inquest recorded a narrative verdict that Vinnie's death was an accident.

But his parents, John, 51, and Anthea, 49, believe police and prosecutors accepted the driver's account of events without carrying out a thorough investigation or appealing widely enough for witnesses.

They have employed a crash investigator to re-examine what happened and if he finds they could have a case are considering bringing a private prosecution against the driver.

Mr Carta, a bus safety examiner, said: "Vinnie was an experienced cyclist. He was on his new bike, wearing a helmet and reflective clothing. He was on a well-lit route, which he took all the time. He knew what he was doing.

"The driver has changed his story several times. We think he was in a rush to get home, thinking he was coming up to a 60mph road, and just didn't pay attention to the road. Vinnie was flipped in the air and landed on the car.

"We're not looking for revenge. We're not vindictive. We just want the law to be applied. The police should have put up witness appeal boards but they said that could cause more accidents."

Re: Are police apathetic in investigating cycling deaths?
« Reply #1 on: 11 June, 2008, 08:44:49 am »
A Cambridgeshire Constbulary spokeswoman said: "A thorough investigation took place and a file was submitted to the Crown Prosecution Service. "The CPS decided there was insufficient evidence to bring a prosecution."

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Are police apathetic in investigating cycling deaths?
« Reply #2 on: 11 June, 2008, 09:01:24 am »
The helmet comment is quite welcome, really.  The press are usually quick to point out when an injured/dead cyclist wasn't wearing one.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

spindrift

Re: Are police apathetic in investigating cycling deaths?
« Reply #3 on: 11 June, 2008, 09:03:54 am »
A Cambridgeshire Constbulary spokeswoman said: "A thorough investigation took place and a file was submitted to the Crown Prosecution Service. "The CPS decided there was insufficient evidence to bring a prosecution."

Oh, fair point Grub.

A cyclist and driver travelling in the same direction will not come into any conflist if both are abiding by the HC.

I'd like to know what the driver said in mitigation that persuaded the CPS to drop the case.

The police remark about witness boards is hard to understand.

Re: Are police apathetic in investigating cycling deaths?
« Reply #4 on: 11 June, 2008, 09:12:17 am »
A Cambridgeshire Constbulary spokeswoman said: "A thorough investigation took place and a file was submitted to the Crown Prosecution Service. "The CPS decided there was insufficient evidence to bring a prosecution."

Oh, fair point Grub.

Except that the family's accusation is that the police failed to collect the evidence. If justified (and I make no judgement on that point), then it wouldn't really be the CPS's fault.

Ditto RZ on the helmet comment. The recognition that a helmet isn't a magic cloak of invulnerability is actually quite useful.
Life is too important to be taken seriously.

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: Are police apathetic in investigating cycling deaths?
« Reply #5 on: 11 June, 2008, 09:36:43 am »
I'm not sure about this case, but in my experience of a number of incidents in London and Norwich, the answer to the question "Are the police apathetic in investigating cycling deaths?" is a resounding 'Yes'.  And it is not only in cases involving deaths that the police are lacking - just about any incident involving cyclists seems to be given a cursory (if any) investigation.

I think of my own case.  I get hit and seriously injured by a driver who is driving without due care and attention (as a minimum - personally I'd have said dangerous driving).  This happens on a clear sunny day in the middle of Islington - a number of witnesses saw what happened, which is that the driver (of an ambulance) cut across me in order to enter the wrong side of a side street, which was clearly marked as closed.

This was not an ambulance on an emergency call - the driver was parking up to get a pizza.  The driver did not start to signal until after he had begun to turn.  Despite slamming on the brakes, I hit the vehicle - there was no avoiding it.

The police were called by one of the witnesses.  Despite me being seriously injured, the police took 45 minutes to arrive.  I actually waited for 25 minutes in the back of the ambulance for them to arrive!  >:(  Whilst waiting one of the witnesses (who happened to be a High Court judge) gathered the details of all the witnesses and gave them to me.

When the police arrived, the vehicle and my bike had already been moved - after all, this was rush hour and nothing could stand in the way of people in their cars.  :demon:  The police stuck their heads round the back door of the ambulance and briefly asked me what happened.  They then spent about 10 minutes talking to the driver.  They then came back and said that they would talk to me again at the hospital.  I asked whether they had spoken to the witnesses - they hadn’t, despite two of the witnesses having waited for over an hour – and so I gave them their details.  About 5 minutes later they stuck their heads round the back of the ambulance I was in and gave me back the piece of paper.  They also gave me the driver’s details.

I was whisked off to hospital (I say whisked – there was a football match on and traffic was slow to say the least).  The police didn’t turn up to see me at the hospital as they said they would.

After a few days I hadn’t heard anything.  So I contacted the police and spoke to the officers dealing with the case – who were different from the officers who had attended.  They said it was unlikely that there would be any action, as the driver said that he’d clearly indicated and that I’d hit him undertaking.  I said this wasn’t the case and that the witnesses would agree with me – only to be told that there was no record of any witnesses in the accident report book.  I expressed my surprise and sent them the witness details again.  I was told I wouldn’t need to make a separate statement as the brief statement I had made at the time of the accident (which was made when I was under sedation) was sufficiently clear.

More time passed and my solicitor asked for a copy of the police file for the insurance claim, which the driver was contesting.  Upon receipt of the file, which the police took nearly 8 weeks to send, it turned out that the police who attended the accident had not entered the details of the witnesses into the accident report book.  Even after I had sent the police the details of the witnesses again, they had not been contacted and no statements had been taken.  However, in the file was a copy of a letter from the police to the driver confirming that no further action would be taken – this letter had been sent only two weeks after the accident – as they believed I had been at fault!

My solicitor (who had previously worked for the CPS) complained to the police about the slipshod ‘investigation’ but it was too late for any further action to be taken as six months had expired and no prosecution could be brought.  A formal complaint was made to the Professional Standards Directorate, but nothing happened other than vague promises that the police officers involved would be ‘spoken to’ – certainly no apology was forthcoming.

I have been involved as a witness in other incidents, including one after a CM when a motorcyclist rode into a group of cyclists.  On that occasion, the police who attended were aggressive and started harassing the cyclist who was injured rather than questioning to motorcyclist.  It wasn’t until they realised that a journalist was taking an interest did they start to do their job.  However, they were reluctant to breathalyse the motorcyclist (as is required) despite this requirement being pointed out to them – and they were trying to refuse to take the details of witnesses, saying we should give our details only to the injured cyclist.  It wasn’t until I pointed out to them that there was a specific space in the accident book for witness details that they started to take details.  Of course, they stated that no cyclist who was a witness was ‘independent’ – they were all biased because they happened to be cyclists as well.

I complained to the Professional Standards Directorate about these officers’ attitude.  I was told that their view of cyclists being automatically biased was perfectly acceptable.

Unfortunately, it seems if many police officers have forgotten that cyclists have a right to use the roads in safety. I am sincerely hoping that having a cycling mayor in London (irrespective of his political allegiances) might help change this attitude – particularly if he sits on the Metropolitan Police Authority.

And don’t get me started on the Crown Prosecution Service’s attitude towards cycling incidents…. >:(
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: Are police apathetic in investigating cycling deaths?
« Reply #6 on: 11 June, 2008, 09:38:13 am »
A Cambridgeshire Constbulary spokeswoman said: "A thorough investigation took place and a file was submitted to the Crown Prosecution Service. "The CPS decided there was insufficient evidence to bring a prosecution."


In whose opinion was the investigation 'thorough'?  Quite frankly, and with no offence to you or Fuzzy, I wouldn't believe a police spokeperson making such a statement when put on the spot.
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

Gattopardo

  • Lord of the sith
  • Overseaing the building of the death star
Re: Are police apathetic in investigating cycling deaths?
« Reply #7 on: 11 June, 2008, 09:38:28 am »
Ok parents lost a child but why blame the police.  Its CPS that decide who to prosecute not the police.  Or does the cynical side of me smell a payout?

Oh and thats the first time I've seen mentioned that a cyclist died whilst wearing a helmet.

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: Are police apathetic in investigating cycling deaths?
« Reply #8 on: 11 June, 2008, 09:40:59 am »
The parents are rightfully asking whether there was a proper investigation?  I don't blame them.
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

Gattopardo

  • Lord of the sith
  • Overseaing the building of the death star
Re: Are police apathetic in investigating cycling deaths?
« Reply #9 on: 11 June, 2008, 09:44:02 am »
I'm not sure about this case, but in my experience of a number of incidents in London and Norwich, the answer to the question "Are the police apathetic in investigating cycling deaths?" is a resounding 'Yes'.  And it is not only in cases involving deaths that the police are lacking - just about any incident involving cyclists seems to be given a cursory (if any) investigation.

I think of my own case.  I get hit and seriously injured by a driver who is driving without due care and attention (as a minimum - personally I'd have said dangerous driving).  This happens on a clear sunny day in the middle of Islington - a number of witnesses saw what happened, which is that the driver (of an ambulance) cut across me in order to enter the wrong side of a side street, which was clearly marked as closed.

This was not an ambulance on an emergency call - the driver was parking up to get a pizza.  The driver did not start to signal until after he had begun to turn.  Despite slamming on the brakes, I hit the vehicle - there was no avoiding it.

The police were called by one of the witnesses.  Despite me being seriously injured, the police took 45 minutes to arrive.  I actually waited for 25 minutes in the back of the ambulance for them to arrive!  >:(  Whilst waiting one of the witnesses (who happened to be a High Court judge) gathered the details of all the witnesses and gave them to me.

When the police arrived, the vehicle and my bike had already been moved - after all, this was rush hour and nothing could stand in the way of people in their cars.  :demon:  The police stuck their heads round the back door of the ambulance and briefly asked me what happened.  They then spent about 10 minutes talking to the driver.  They then came back and said that they would talk to me again at the hospital.  I asked whether they had spoken to the witnesses - they hadn’t, despite two of the witnesses having waited for over an hour – and so I gave them their details.  About 5 minutes later they stuck their heads round the back of the ambulance I was in and gave me back the piece of paper.  They also gave me the driver’s details.

I was whisked off to hospital (I say whisked – there was a football match on and traffic was slow to say the least).  The police didn’t turn up to see me at the hospital as they said they would.

After a few days I hadn’t heard anything.  So I contacted the police and spoke to the officers dealing with the case – who were different from the officers who had attended.  They said it was unlikely that there would be any action, as the driver said that he’d clearly indicated and that I’d hit him undertaking.  I said this wasn’t the case and that the witnesses would agree with me – only to be told that there was no record of any witnesses in the accident report book.  I expressed my surprise and sent them the witness details again.  I was told I wouldn’t need to make a separate statement as the brief statement I had made at the time of the accident (which was made when I was under sedation) was sufficiently clear.

More time passed and my solicitor asked for a copy of the police file for the insurance claim, which the driver was contesting.  Upon receipt of the file, which the police took nearly 8 weeks to send, it turned out that the police who attended the accident had not entered the details of the witnesses into the accident report book.  Even after I had sent the police the details of the witnesses again, they had not been contacted and no statements had been taken.  However, in the file was a copy of a letter from the police to the driver confirming that no further action would be taken – this letter had been sent only two weeks after the accident – as they believed I had been at fault!

My solicitor (who had previously worked for the CPS) complained to the police about the slipshod ‘investigation’ but it was too late for any further action to be taken as six months had expired and no prosecution could be brought.  A formal complaint was made to the Professional Standards Directorate, but nothing happened other than vague promises that the police officers involved would be ‘spoken to’ – certainly no apology was forthcoming.

I have been involved as a witness in other incidents, including one after a CM when a motorcyclist rode into a group of cyclists.  On that occasion, the police who attended were aggressive and started harassing the cyclist who was injured rather than questioning to motorcyclist.  It wasn’t until they realised that a journalist was taking an interest did they start to do their job.  However, they were reluctant to breathalyse the motorcyclist (as is required) despite this requirement being pointed out to them – and they were trying to refuse to take the details of witnesses, saying we should give our details only to the injured cyclist.  It wasn’t until I pointed out to them that there was a specific space in the accident book for witness details that they started to take details.  Of course, they stated that no cyclist who was a witness was ‘independent’ – they were all biased because they happened to be cyclists as well.

I complained to the Professional Standards Directorate about these officers’ attitude.  I was told that their view of cyclists being automatically biased was perfectly acceptable.

Unfortunately, it seems if many police officers have forgotten that cyclists have a right to use the roads in safety. I am sincerely hoping that having a cycling mayor in London (irrespective of his political allegiances) might help change this attitude – particularly if he sits on the Metropolitan Police Authority.

And don’t get me started on the Crown Prosecution Service’s attitude towards cycling incidents…. >:(


London police don't anything to uninsured drivers when you get knocked off you bike by an uninsured van who jumped a keep left bollard at a set of traffic lights.  Even with witnesses and a paramedic who was behind the van and saw everything.

But do try and prosecute me for not producing my documents even to I didn't sign the 7 day wonder as I was being taken away in the van.

Oh and independant witnesses are one not connected to the accident.

spindrift

Re: Are police apathetic in investigating cycling deaths?
« Reply #10 on: 11 June, 2008, 09:44:50 am »
The parents are entitled to ask why witnesses were not sought.

Gattopardo

  • Lord of the sith
  • Overseaing the building of the death star
Re: Are police apathetic in investigating cycling deaths?
« Reply #11 on: 11 June, 2008, 09:45:23 am »
The parents are rightfully asking whether there was a proper investigation?  I don't blame them.

Maybe true but I'm getting too cynical, bit sick of the if there is a blame there is a claim culture.

Re: Are police apathetic in investigating cycling deaths?
« Reply #12 on: 11 June, 2008, 09:47:40 am »
Regulator,

Your point is experience based, I can't odds that.  I will add that London cops don't do traffic matters, as a rule.  We often get motorists turning up at our stations in WILTSHIRE, to report an accident in LONDON - as whey they tried to do so they were told to go away.

As your accident was not fatal, I would prefer to park it there for the moment.

Anyone that has experience with investigating a death will know that they are the most poured over, concentrated and deliberated investigations.  They are not 10 mins here and 5 mins there.  It is estimated that each death on our roads costs the taxpayer £1,000,000 in associated community costs.

The cops get paid no matter what they do - and for fatal investigations they do a lot. 

What evidence did the police not collect?  We don't know and we therefore can only speculate.

The CPS are also part of the investigation phase as well as the prosecution as they review the evidence.  A case conference will highlight weaknesses in evidence and officers will be tasked to go and take further statements / obtain expert evidence etc.

A fatal is so much more than just another road traffic accident - that is why I responded to this thread and why I don't believe what is put in the paper.

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: Are police apathetic in investigating cycling deaths?
« Reply #13 on: 11 June, 2008, 09:47:51 am »
I'm not sure about this case, but in my experience of a number of incidents in London and Norwich, the answer to the question "Are the police apathetic in investigating cycling deaths?" is a resounding 'Yes'.  And it is not only in cases involving deaths that the police are lacking - just about any incident involving cyclists seems to be given a cursory (if any) investigation.

I think of my own case.  I get hit and seriously injured by a driver who is driving without due care and attention (as a minimum - personally I'd have said dangerous driving).  This happens on a clear sunny day in the middle of Islington - a number of witnesses saw what happened, which is that the driver (of an ambulance) cut across me in order to enter the wrong side of a side street, which was clearly marked as closed.

This was not an ambulance on an emergency call - the driver was parking up to get a pizza.  The driver did not start to signal until after he had begun to turn.  Despite slamming on the brakes, I hit the vehicle - there was no avoiding it.

The police were called by one of the witnesses.  Despite me being seriously injured, the police took 45 minutes to arrive.  I actually waited for 25 minutes in the back of the ambulance for them to arrive!  >:(  Whilst waiting one of the witnesses (who happened to be a High Court judge) gathered the details of all the witnesses and gave them to me.

When the police arrived, the vehicle and my bike had already been moved - after all, this was rush hour and nothing could stand in the way of people in their cars.  :demon:  The police stuck their heads round the back door of the ambulance and briefly asked me what happened.  They then spent about 10 minutes talking to the driver.  They then came back and said that they would talk to me again at the hospital.  I asked whether they had spoken to the witnesses - they hadn’t, despite two of the witnesses having waited for over an hour – and so I gave them their details.  About 5 minutes later they stuck their heads round the back of the ambulance I was in and gave me back the piece of paper.  They also gave me the driver’s details.

I was whisked off to hospital (I say whisked – there was a football match on and traffic was slow to say the least).  The police didn’t turn up to see me at the hospital as they said they would.

After a few days I hadn’t heard anything.  So I contacted the police and spoke to the officers dealing with the case – who were different from the officers who had attended.  They said it was unlikely that there would be any action, as the driver said that he’d clearly indicated and that I’d hit him undertaking.  I said this wasn’t the case and that the witnesses would agree with me – only to be told that there was no record of any witnesses in the accident report book.  I expressed my surprise and sent them the witness details again.  I was told I wouldn’t need to make a separate statement as the brief statement I had made at the time of the accident (which was made when I was under sedation) was sufficiently clear.

More time passed and my solicitor asked for a copy of the police file for the insurance claim, which the driver was contesting.  Upon receipt of the file, which the police took nearly 8 weeks to send, it turned out that the police who attended the accident had not entered the details of the witnesses into the accident report book.  Even after I had sent the police the details of the witnesses again, they had not been contacted and no statements had been taken.  However, in the file was a copy of a letter from the police to the driver confirming that no further action would be taken – this letter had been sent only two weeks after the accident – as they believed I had been at fault!

My solicitor (who had previously worked for the CPS) complained to the police about the slipshod ‘investigation’ but it was too late for any further action to be taken as six months had expired and no prosecution could be brought.  A formal complaint was made to the Professional Standards Directorate, but nothing happened other than vague promises that the police officers involved would be ‘spoken to’ – certainly no apology was forthcoming.

I have been involved as a witness in other incidents, including one after a CM when a motorcyclist rode into a group of cyclists.  On that occasion, the police who attended were aggressive and started harassing the cyclist who was injured rather than questioning to motorcyclist.  It wasn’t until they realised that a journalist was taking an interest did they start to do their job.  However, they were reluctant to breathalyse the motorcyclist (as is required) despite this requirement being pointed out to them – and they were trying to refuse to take the details of witnesses, saying we should give our details only to the injured cyclist.  It wasn’t until I pointed out to them that there was a specific space in the accident book for witness details that they started to take details.  Of course, they stated that no cyclist who was a witness was ‘independent’ – they were all biased because they happened to be cyclists as well.

I complained to the Professional Standards Directorate about these officers’ attitude.  I was told that their view of cyclists being automatically biased was perfectly acceptable.

Unfortunately, it seems if many police officers have forgotten that cyclists have a right to use the roads in safety. I am sincerely hoping that having a cycling mayor in London (irrespective of his political allegiances) might help change this attitude – particularly if he sits on the Metropolitan Police Authority.

And don’t get me started on the Crown Prosecution Service’s attitude towards cycling incidents…. >:(


London police don't anything to uninsured drivers when you get knocked off you bike by an uninsured van who jumped a keep left bollard at a set of traffic lights.  Even with witnesses and a paramedic who was behind the van and saw everything.

But do try and prosecute me for not producing my documents even to I didn't sign the 7 day wonder as I was being taken away in the van.

Oh and independant witnesses are one not connected to the accident.


No - independent witnesses are those without a substantive connection to one or other of the parties in an incident.  A shared interest (such as cycling) is not necessarily a substantive connection - nor is having attended CM or even working together (if that happened to be the case).  It is not for the police to judge the 'indpendence' of witnesses - that is for the CPS and the court to decide.
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

spindrift

Re: Are police apathetic in investigating cycling deaths?
« Reply #14 on: 11 June, 2008, 09:50:23 am »
I'm not sure about this case, but in my experience of a number of incidents in London and Norwich, the answer to the question "Are the police apathetic in investigating cycling deaths?" is a resounding 'Yes'.  And it is not only in cases involving deaths that the police are lacking - just about any incident involving cyclists seems to be given a cursory (if any) investigation.

I think of my own case.  I get hit and seriously injured by a driver who is driving without due care and attention (as a minimum - personally I'd have said dangerous driving).  This happens on a clear sunny day in the middle of Islington - a number of witnesses saw what happened, which is that the driver (of an ambulance) cut across me in order to enter the wrong side of a side street, which was clearly marked as closed.

This was not an ambulance on an emergency call - the driver was parking up to get a pizza.  The driver did not start to signal until after he had begun to turn.  Despite slamming on the brakes, I hit the vehicle - there was no avoiding it.

The police were called by one of the witnesses.  Despite me being seriously injured, the police took 45 minutes to arrive.  I actually waited for 25 minutes in the back of the ambulance for them to arrive!  >:(  Whilst waiting one of the witnesses (who happened to be a High Court judge) gathered the details of all the witnesses and gave them to me.

When the police arrived, the vehicle and my bike had already been moved - after all, this was rush hour and nothing could stand in the way of people in their cars.  :demon:  The police stuck their heads round the back door of the ambulance and briefly asked me what happened.  They then spent about 10 minutes talking to the driver.  They then came back and said that they would talk to me again at the hospital.  I asked whether they had spoken to the witnesses - they hadn’t, despite two of the witnesses having waited for over an hour – and so I gave them their details.  About 5 minutes later they stuck their heads round the back of the ambulance I was in and gave me back the piece of paper.  They also gave me the driver’s details.

I was whisked off to hospital (I say whisked – there was a football match on and traffic was slow to say the least).  The police didn’t turn up to see me at the hospital as they said they would.

After a few days I hadn’t heard anything.  So I contacted the police and spoke to the officers dealing with the case – who were different from the officers who had attended.  They said it was unlikely that there would be any action, as the driver said that he’d clearly indicated and that I’d hit him undertaking.  I said this wasn’t the case and that the witnesses would agree with me – only to be told that there was no record of any witnesses in the accident report book.  I expressed my surprise and sent them the witness details again.  I was told I wouldn’t need to make a separate statement as the brief statement I had made at the time of the accident (which was made when I was under sedation) was sufficiently clear.

More time passed and my solicitor asked for a copy of the police file for the insurance claim, which the driver was contesting.  Upon receipt of the file, which the police took nearly 8 weeks to send, it turned out that the police who attended the accident had not entered the details of the witnesses into the accident report book.  Even after I had sent the police the details of the witnesses again, they had not been contacted and no statements had been taken.  However, in the file was a copy of a letter from the police to the driver confirming that no further action would be taken – this letter had been sent only two weeks after the accident – as they believed I had been at fault!

My solicitor (who had previously worked for the CPS) complained to the police about the slipshod ‘investigation’ but it was too late for any further action to be taken as six months had expired and no prosecution could be brought.  A formal complaint was made to the Professional Standards Directorate, but nothing happened other than vague promises that the police officers involved would be ‘spoken to’ – certainly no apology was forthcoming.

I have been involved as a witness in other incidents, including one after a CM when a motorcyclist rode into a group of cyclists.  On that occasion, the police who attended were aggressive and started harassing the cyclist who was injured rather than questioning to motorcyclist.  It wasn’t until they realised that a journalist was taking an interest did they start to do their job.  However, they were reluctant to breathalyse the motorcyclist (as is required) despite this requirement being pointed out to them – and they were trying to refuse to take the details of witnesses, saying we should give our details only to the injured cyclist.  It wasn’t until I pointed out to them that there was a specific space in the accident book for witness details that they started to take details.  Of course, they stated that no cyclist who was a witness was ‘independent’ – they were all biased because they happened to be cyclists as well.

I complained to the Professional Standards Directorate about these officers’ attitude.  I was told that their view of cyclists being automatically biased was perfectly acceptable.

Unfortunately, it seems if many police officers have forgotten that cyclists have a right to use the roads in safety. I am sincerely hoping that having a cycling mayor in London (irrespective of his political allegiances) might help change this attitude – particularly if he sits on the Metropolitan Police Authority.

And don’t get me started on the Crown Prosecution Service’s attitude towards cycling incidents…. >:(



That is a flipping horrifying story. What happened in the end with the insurance claim?

" I was told that their view of cyclists being automatically biased was perfectly acceptable."

Told in writing?

Re: Are police apathetic in investigating cycling deaths?
« Reply #15 on: 11 June, 2008, 09:51:12 am »
What we need in this country is Dutch Road Rules.

Gattopardo

  • Lord of the sith
  • Overseaing the building of the death star
Re: Are police apathetic in investigating cycling deaths?
« Reply #16 on: 11 June, 2008, 09:51:43 am »
I'm not sure about this case, but in my experience of a number of incidents in London and Norwich, the answer to the question "Are the police apathetic in investigating cycling deaths?" is a resounding 'Yes'.  And it is not only in cases involving deaths that the police are lacking - just about any incident involving cyclists seems to be given a cursory (if any) investigation.

I think of my own case.  I get hit and seriously injured by a driver who is driving without due care and attention (as a minimum - personally I'd have said dangerous driving).  This happens on a clear sunny day in the middle of Islington - a number of witnesses saw what happened, which is that the driver (of an ambulance) cut across me in order to enter the wrong side of a side street, which was clearly marked as closed.

This was not an ambulance on an emergency call - the driver was parking up to get a pizza.  The driver did not start to signal until after he had begun to turn.  Despite slamming on the brakes, I hit the vehicle - there was no avoiding it.

The police were called by one of the witnesses.  Despite me being seriously injured, the police took 45 minutes to arrive.  I actually waited for 25 minutes in the back of the ambulance for them to arrive!  >:(  Whilst waiting one of the witnesses (who happened to be a High Court judge) gathered the details of all the witnesses and gave them to me.

When the police arrived, the vehicle and my bike had already been moved - after all, this was rush hour and nothing could stand in the way of people in their cars.  :demon:  The police stuck their heads round the back door of the ambulance and briefly asked me what happened.  They then spent about 10 minutes talking to the driver.  They then came back and said that they would talk to me again at the hospital.  I asked whether they had spoken to the witnesses - they hadn’t, despite two of the witnesses having waited for over an hour – and so I gave them their details.  About 5 minutes later they stuck their heads round the back of the ambulance I was in and gave me back the piece of paper.  They also gave me the driver’s details.

I was whisked off to hospital (I say whisked – there was a football match on and traffic was slow to say the least).  The police didn’t turn up to see me at the hospital as they said they would.

After a few days I hadn’t heard anything.  So I contacted the police and spoke to the officers dealing with the case – who were different from the officers who had attended.  They said it was unlikely that there would be any action, as the driver said that he’d clearly indicated and that I’d hit him undertaking.  I said this wasn’t the case and that the witnesses would agree with me – only to be told that there was no record of any witnesses in the accident report book.  I expressed my surprise and sent them the witness details again.  I was told I wouldn’t need to make a separate statement as the brief statement I had made at the time of the accident (which was made when I was under sedation) was sufficiently clear.

More time passed and my solicitor asked for a copy of the police file for the insurance claim, which the driver was contesting.  Upon receipt of the file, which the police took nearly 8 weeks to send, it turned out that the police who attended the accident had not entered the details of the witnesses into the accident report book.  Even after I had sent the police the details of the witnesses again, they had not been contacted and no statements had been taken.  However, in the file was a copy of a letter from the police to the driver confirming that no further action would be taken – this letter had been sent only two weeks after the accident – as they believed I had been at fault!

My solicitor (who had previously worked for the CPS) complained to the police about the slipshod ‘investigation’ but it was too late for any further action to be taken as six months had expired and no prosecution could be brought.  A formal complaint was made to the Professional Standards Directorate, but nothing happened other than vague promises that the police officers involved would be ‘spoken to’ – certainly no apology was forthcoming.

I have been involved as a witness in other incidents, including one after a CM when a motorcyclist rode into a group of cyclists.  On that occasion, the police who attended were aggressive and started harassing the cyclist who was injured rather than questioning to motorcyclist.  It wasn’t until they realised that a journalist was taking an interest did they start to do their job.  However, they were reluctant to breathalyse the motorcyclist (as is required) despite this requirement being pointed out to them – and they were trying to refuse to take the details of witnesses, saying we should give our details only to the injured cyclist.  It wasn’t until I pointed out to them that there was a specific space in the accident book for witness details that they started to take details.  Of course, they stated that no cyclist who was a witness was ‘independent’ – they were all biased because they happened to be cyclists as well.

I complained to the Professional Standards Directorate about these officers’ attitude.  I was told that their view of cyclists being automatically biased was perfectly acceptable.

Unfortunately, it seems if many police officers have forgotten that cyclists have a right to use the roads in safety. I am sincerely hoping that having a cycling mayor in London (irrespective of his political allegiances) might help change this attitude – particularly if he sits on the Metropolitan Police Authority.

And don’t get me started on the Crown Prosecution Service’s attitude towards cycling incidents…. >:(


London police don't anything to uninsured drivers when you get knocked off you bike by an uninsured van who jumped a keep left bollard at a set of traffic lights.  Even with witnesses and a paramedic who was behind the van and saw everything.

But do try and prosecute me for not producing my documents even to I didn't sign the 7 day wonder as I was being taken away in the van.

Oh and independant witnesses are one not connected to the accident.


No - independent witnesses are those without a substantive connection to one or other of the parties in an incident.  A shared interest (such as cycling) is not necessarily a substantive connection - nor is having attended CM or even working together (if that happened to be the case).  It is not for the police to judge the 'indpendence' of witnesses - that is for the CPS and the court to decide.

Not according to my experience of CPS and by most insurance companies I have used.

Gattopardo

  • Lord of the sith
  • Overseaing the building of the death star
Re: Are police apathetic in investigating cycling deaths?
« Reply #17 on: 11 June, 2008, 09:53:25 am »
What we need in this country is Dutch Road Rules.

What that then?

Or is it another you have an engine you are in the wrong?

spindrift

Re: Are police apathetic in investigating cycling deaths?
« Reply #18 on: 11 June, 2008, 09:56:09 am »
What we need in this country is Dutch Road Rules.

What that then?

Or is it another you have an engine you are in the wrong?

It's the liability law introduced in the Netherlands that states the greater care must be taken by those capable of causing the most harm. It's made the roads safer and accidents have decreased, thereby also lowering premiums. After disgraceful, dishonest lobbying by the AA, among others, the mooted law change was dropped.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Are police apathetic in investigating cycling deaths?
« Reply #19 on: 11 June, 2008, 10:03:43 am »
Are police apathetic in investigating cycling deaths?

Luckily I've had no involvement in fatalities, but from all the lesser incidents I can confidently say:
SOME police seek to uphold the law and protect the vulnerable without prejudice.
But the Police are institutionally apathetic about harm coming to cyclists.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

spindrift

Re: Are police apathetic in investigating cycling deaths?
« Reply #20 on: 11 June, 2008, 10:06:23 am »
 As the House of Commons Transport Committee report 'Traffic law and it's enforcement' put it:

"the evidence presented during our inquiry supports Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary’s suggestion that “most forces saw road policing as a peripheral task, often seen by management as a repository of vehicles and officers to be redirected to ‘more important work’”.

"Much of the evidence given to us was concerned with the law relating to those who caused death or injury on the roads. It would be an understatement to say there was concern about the way in which the law deals with such cases. All those who wrote to us on the subject, and they were many, were impassioned about what they saw as a tendency to downgrade road traffic crashes. We were told of a tendency to treat serious incidents as “nobody’s fault” or even to blame the victim; a belief it was not appropriate for motorists to take as much care when driving a motor vehicle as they would when undertaking other activities which might endanger the public; a justice system which frequently did not take into account the consequences of a crash; and a disregard for the victims and their families."

Etc. Etc.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200304/cmselect/cmtran/105/105.pdf

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: Are police apathetic in investigating cycling deaths?
« Reply #21 on: 11 June, 2008, 10:20:44 am »

That is a flipping horrifying story. What happened in the end with the insurance claim?

" I was told that their view of cyclists being automatically biased was perfectly acceptable."

Told in writing?


The insurers admitted liability fairly quickly once the witness statements were procured by my solicitor.  They made a derisory offer and it wasn't until we got to the door of the court that an acceptable offer (£25,500)was made.

The comment from the police was made in writing to my solicitor.  A copy of the letter was passed to interested parties.
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

Gattopardo

  • Lord of the sith
  • Overseaing the building of the death star
Re: Are police apathetic in investigating cycling deaths?
« Reply #22 on: 11 June, 2008, 10:21:52 am »
What we need in this country is Dutch Road Rules.

What that then?

Or is it another you have an engine you are in the wrong?

It's the liability law introduced in the Netherlands that states the greater care must be taken by those capable of causing the most harm. It's made the roads safer and accidents have decreased, thereby also lowering premiums. After disgraceful, dishonest lobbying by the AA, among others, the mooted law change was dropped.

I think this is more of  a discussion for another thread.

But what I do say if someone lost their life, for what ever reason, and that is bad

Re: Are police apathetic in investigating cycling deaths?
« Reply #23 on: 11 June, 2008, 10:23:52 am »
As the House of Commons Transport Committee report 'Traffic law and it's enforcement' put it:

"the evidence presented during our inquiry supports Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary’s suggestion that “most forces saw road policing as a peripheral task, often seen by management as a repository of vehicles and officers to be redirected to ‘more important work’”.

"Much of the evidence given to us was concerned with the law relating to those who caused death or injury on the roads. It would be an understatement to say there was concern about the way in which the law deals with such cases. All those who wrote to us on the subject, and they were many, were impassioned about what they saw as a tendency to downgrade road traffic crashes. We were told of a tendency to treat serious incidents as “nobody’s fault” or even to blame the victim; a belief it was not appropriate for motorists to take as much care when driving a motor vehicle as they would when undertaking other activities which might endanger the public; a justice system which frequently did not take into account the consequences of a crash; and a disregard for the victims and their families."

Etc. Etc.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200304/cmselect/cmtran/105/105.pdf


Good point, but that is the justice system, not the police.  We proportion blame all the time.  We love doing that.

spindrift

Re: Are police apathetic in investigating cycling deaths?
« Reply #24 on: 11 June, 2008, 10:34:49 am »
What we need in this country is Dutch Road Rules.

What that then?

Or is it another you have an engine you are in the wrong?

It's the liability law introduced in the Netherlands that states the greater care must be taken by those capable of causing the most harm. It's made the roads safer and accidents have decreased, thereby also lowering premiums. After disgraceful, dishonest lobbying by the AA, among others, the mooted law change was dropped.

I think this is more of  a discussion for another thread.

But what I do say if someone lost their life, for what ever reason, and that is bad



Cambridge Cycling Campaign » Newsletter 44 (October/November 2002)