Do new cyclists favour main roads?

[Cudzoziemiec]

My commute in 1991 <...>
I did sometimes take a longer route home. But finding quiet routes was even harder back then than now,

Why?  I can only imagine you mean that it was harder in Scotland because there are fewer alternative routes, or that back then you didn't know how to read a map (and there was no GPS).

[nuttycyclist]

I still question the assumption that hi-viz is necessarily a sign of a new rider. In fact today I rode to Bath and back, that's about 50km, on a completely non-road path (old railway) and there were lots of people on that wearing hi-viz and even lights, in bright sunlight. Some were carbon fibre roadie types, some old guys in their 70s on retirement bling, some were pottering on step-thrus and hybrids. A real mix.

Some of the generalisations in the OP rankled a bit. 

I wear a hi-vis vest when night riding, and the morning after, and on winter morning rides.  It also has lots & lots of lovely pockets & is a very practical garment.  I leave my back light on if visibility is poor or if I forget to switch it off.  And when I'm driving a car I rely on my GPS, which doesn't mean I can't read a map - I just don't need to, I'll glance at the map before a new journey then hand over to Sponge Bob (who voices my Tom Tom).  When I'm riding on lanes I may pull over into a gateway (although whether I "wobble" is open to interpretation) to let traffic pass if I happen to know that up ahead passing places are limited or there's a big narrow hill or something, it gets them off my tail, and it stops them being delayed and costs me at most a few seconds.  To me that's win-win.  Others may regard it as supine.   So I fall into many of the categories that the quoted text in the OP scorns, but mostly as the result of reasoned decisions.  I normally wear a h*lm*t too.

Re the generalizations, they were not intended to rankle or upset.  They came out of a trend I have noticed, and anything I write right now is no doubt going to dig me into a bigger hole 


I think it is easier to look at the riders seen out there, as other people have posted similar observations, and then make your own thoughts.

e.g., I saw a lovely couple at the weekend.   Matching his & hers bikes, Hi-Viz still with the creases in it from the packaging, shiny helmets, etc.   They looked just like they'd come out of the bike shop having been taken for a ride, and were wobbling along.      Now of course they could well have been extremely talented cyclists having just had to replace all their worn out kit at the end of a 600k Audax and been wobbling just through tiredness, or they could have decided to take up cycling as a retirement hobby; it's not for me to say or cast any negative comments at them.

[simonp]

My commute in 1991 <...>
I did sometimes take a longer route home. But finding quiet routes was even harder back then than now,

Why?  I can only imagine you mean that it was harder in Scotland because there are fewer alternative routes, or that back then you didn't know how to read a map (and there was no GPS).

There was no online mapping at all. So you had to have paper maps, such as OS Landranger maps for the area. NCN routes were not marked on OS maps we had back then, unlike now. I didn't use a GPS for the first time until >10 years later. It is very much easier to find a suitable cycling route now than it was back then, there's less trial and error, and it's much easier to work out how much further a quieter route will be ahead of time. For instance, I plotted a route down to Dorset for a DIY 200k in a matter of minutes using google maps, that would have taken hours by hand on paper maps - and I'd have had a very much harder time working out the distance. I'd have ended up resorting to much busier main roads for ease of navigation as well.

[nuttycyclist]

My commute in 1991 <...>
I did sometimes take a longer route home. But finding quiet routes was even harder back then than now,

Why?  I can only imagine you mean that it was harder in Scotland because there are fewer alternative routes, or that back then you didn't know how to read a map (and there was no GPS).

There was no online mapping at all. So you had to have paper maps, such as OS Landranger maps for the area. NCN routes were not marked on OS maps we had back then, unlike now. I didn't use a GPS for the first time until >10 years later. It is very much easier to find a suitable cycling route now than it was back then, there's less trial and error, and it's much easier to work out how much further a quieter route will be ahead of time. For instance, I plotted a route down to Dorset for a DIY 200k in a matter of minutes using google maps, that would have taken hours by hand on paper maps - and I'd have had a very much harder time working out the distance. I'd have ended up resorting to much busier main roads for ease of navigation as well.

Interestingly I've always had the opposite.    Online mapping and my GPS has put me on main roads.  When out riding, even for long rides, I seem to be able to just look at a map and take the obvious traffic free direct route.   Maybe I have one of those brains that can just see maps clearly, in the same way other people can see things mathematically or artistically (both of which I struggle with).



 (and btw don't quote me as being the OP, as that was lifted from another thread where I wrote in response to something else )

[Cudzoziemiec]

I was using GPS as shorthand for all sorts of sat nav and online mapping as opposed to paper maps (and not casting aspersions on your map reading ability!) I actually prefer a paper map for route planning as you can see a large area at one glance - though perhaps not all the way down to Dorset! - though I occasionally use things like BikeHike. Never tried a GPS though I can see the use for following a planned route. Getting vaguely back on topic, it was also around 1991 I tried to ride from Stroud to Bath down the A46, though I did use a cyclepath until Nailsworth - I hadn't even bothered to think about a route, and I gave up around Dunkirk/Petty France cos I was tired of the traffic. Nowadays I'd probably look at a map beforehand (and then improvise anyway - or decide I was in a hurry and follow the A46 anyway!)

I wasn't wearing any hi-viz though, after all this was the early 90s!

[Basil]

Interesting that some of our more mature colleagues also like the main roads due to growing up with them.
I'm of the same ilk.  When I were a lad, the only sensible way to ride from A to B was by using the road that went from A to B.  Consequently, I got into the habit of riding major roads from an early age.
As I grew older, the traffic volumes increased, but only very gradually and my road craft grew with it.
I'll still pick "the way I'd drive" today, if I'm riding somewhere because that's where I need to be, particularly in Birmingham.
I leave wiggly routes to forum rides and stuff when I can enjoy the scenery by just following someone else who has the technology and sense to know the way. 

[Phil W]

I think a number of people switching from the car to cycle for commuting, do not realise the quiet alternatives for cycling.

I've introduced a number if colleagues to my quiet alternatives and they are often pleasantly surprised at how nice the cycle commute can be. They often remark they were offput initially, as they knew they wouldn't like to cycle the route they  were driving.

I setup an intranet site at work for cyclists, which covers all the routes others are using to get to / from the office, with online routes overlaid on mapping, plus written description and times others are riding them. Once they discover the fantastic routes available, worked out by the regulars over many years of tuning, they are converted.

Nothing wrong with high viz and lights, it's my winter commuting uniform. But I do like getting back to normal colours this time of year.

If cars are behind me, I'll wave them on, when its suitable. On my regular commute they know I'll do this and give me a wave. Mind you, only about 6 cars seen on my back lane commute, most days...

[Toady]

I wasn't wearing any hi-viz though, after all this was the early 90s!

I've got a flourescent Sam Browne belt wotsit in a box somewhere circa 1982!

[Cudzoziemiec]

I remember them! But they weren't anything like the default/norm hi-viz generally is now. I blame Altura...

[Kim]

This talk of people cycling like they drive makes a lot of sense, but I, for one, drive like I cycle (to the point where it took several lessons to break the habit of releasing the clutch when power wasn't needed).  I was using the roads by bike for years before I got behind the wheel of a car, and learned most of my road skills then.  Can't be that unusual, even if people don't touch a bike for years after getting a car...

[Cudzoziemiec]

I knew someone who was so used to his (motor)bike that he used to filter in his car.

[Kim]

I knew someone who was so used to his (motor)bike that he used to filter in his car.

I must admit to having to concentrate so as not to take primary position when driving on fast roads for the first time in a while.  My cycling instincts say that my seat should be roughly in the middle of the lane above about 25mph.  That goes away after a day or two of driving around, which is about the same time it takes to develop an intuitive sense of where the left wheel track is.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I think you must spend far more time cycling over 25mph than I do!

[Kim]

Not that much *time*, but I do like to make the most of it...

[Biggsy]

I knew someone who was so used to his (motor)bike that he used to filter in his car.

Was he a Duke of Hazard?

[vorsprung]

I'm convinced that there are newcomers to cycling following car routes that are less than optimum for cycling due to vicious hills and heavy traffic, whilst ignoring quieter less hilly routes that run parallel. Surely it reflects a blind following of the same route they drive.

Whatdaya all think?   

I think I am not a "newcomer", I favour A roads and wear hi viz

The "quieter routes" in my part of the world are often (not always) hillier, poorly surfaced and meander taking a less direct course.

Sustrans would have us all off the A roads and following awful lanes or their bizarre facilities.  Neophytes seem to favour these routes because they don't know any better

[Basil]

This talk of people cycling like they drive makes a lot of sense, but I, for one, drive like I cycle (to the point where it took several lessons to break the habit of releasing the clutch when power wasn't needed).  I was using the roads by bike for years before I got behind the wheel of a car, and learned most of my road skills then.  Can't be that unusual, even if people don't touch a bike for years after getting a car...

Ah, good.  Not just me then.
On several occasions Mrs. B has commented that I drive like I'm riding a bike.  I'm not absolutely sure why.  I think it may have something to do with the way I claim primary when negotiating hazards, or something.

[Kim]

I certainly drive with a view to conservation of momentum (rolling up to red lights, and so on) and an appreciation of what makes a significant difference to average speed (ie. not zooming up to the back of the next queue).  And I look over my shoulder when turning right.

[Pickled Onion]

Ah, good.  Not just me then.
On several occasions Mrs. B has commented that I drive like I'm riding a bike.  I'm not absolutely sure why.  I think it may have something to do with the way I claim primary when negotiating hazards, or something.

Leaning in to the bends?

[Basil]

Swinging my heel out to unclip every time I take my foot off the clutch pedal?

[clarion]

Stopping regularly for cake?

[Biggsy]

I'm not a car driver, but on the times I've had a go at driving, I've pushed the clutch when I want to "freewheel".  So that's not good, is it? 

[Manotea]

A blip of gas to attack the descent and gather momentum to coast up the next ascent...

[simonp]

My commute in 1991 <...>
I did sometimes take a longer route home. But finding quiet routes was even harder back then than now,

Why?  I can only imagine you mean that it was harder in Scotland because there are fewer alternative routes, or that back then you didn't know how to read a map (and there was no GPS).

There was no online mapping at all. So you had to have paper maps, such as OS Landranger maps for the area. NCN routes were not marked on OS maps we had back then, unlike now. I didn't use a GPS for the first time until >10 years later. It is very much easier to find a suitable cycling route now than it was back then, there's less trial and error, and it's much easier to work out how much further a quieter route will be ahead of time. For instance, I plotted a route down to Dorset for a DIY 200k in a matter of minutes using google maps, that would have taken hours by hand on paper maps - and I'd have had a very much harder time working out the distance. I'd have ended up resorting to much busier main roads for ease of navigation as well.

Interestingly I've always had the opposite.    Online mapping and my GPS has put me on main roads.  When out riding, even for long rides, I seem to be able to just look at a map and take the obvious traffic free direct route.   Maybe I have one of those brains that can just see maps clearly, in the same way other people can see things mathematically or artistically (both of which I struggle with).



 (and btw don't quote me as being the OP, as that was lifted from another thread where I wrote in response to something else )

Most online mapping systems have multiple routing algorithms. None of them are perfect. What is good with google maps is the ability to tweak the route because you can look at what it came up with and spot improvements (bet it avoiding a main road, or choosing to avoid a fussy cycle route, or whatever) and tune it to your preferences. I recently used this to plot a route across Bristol from work to the Clifton Suspension Bridge to meet up with a CTC ride. The route has about 30 turns over 6 miles, I chose my route, and navigated it from memory, and a bit of nose following (more than half the route was on unfamiliar roads). The driving mode is useless for cycling, because it tries to put you on unsuitable roads, such as the M32. Cycling mode leans too far the other way, creating overly complex routes that go out of their way to use cycling facilities which are often a PITA. But it's very easy to take a cycling route and tweak it a few times to be acceptable.

[cycleman]

how do you get the car through the cycleway gates kim ?