Author Topic: £10 registration fee per event for organisers  (Read 41880 times)

Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
« Reply #175 on: 11 February, 2011, 02:18:20 pm »
For good reason, it seems. I attended the AGM and have no recollection of the Levy being discussed. It's not referenced by the AGM minutes in Arrivee as far as I can see.

Given the financial regulations are fairly explicit in requiring charges to be decided at AGM, that the charge is - against normal practice - retrospective, and the controversial nature of the charge (lack of consultation, impact on small calendar events, AUK strategy regarding developing events) the Levy should be withdrawn and resubmitted at AGM 2011.

I wasn't sat too far from Manotea, and I must admit - Mrs. BlackSheep and I tend to agree. I'm going to have a read of Arrivee, just to see if There's something I missed. Other wise that's an interesting point, but I don't expect there will be any form of response.
where you have a concentration of power in a few hands, all too frequently men with the mentality of gangsters get control. History has proven that. Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
« Reply #176 on: 11 February, 2011, 02:21:39 pm »
Where do new organisers come from - do they start with one small event?
It is simpler than it looks.

DanialW

Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
« Reply #177 on: 11 February, 2011, 02:25:58 pm »
Where do new organisers come from - do they start with one small event?

They come mostly from other organisers who want to stop organising but wish to keep their event going. Personally, I think this is a poor way to recruit organisers, as I suspect many of these new organisers are cajoled into organising.

Others are inspired by other organisers, and tend to appear with oodles of enthusiasm that usually dampens down after the first rainy routecheck. If they get past their first event, they usually become quite successful with their events.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
« Reply #178 on: 11 February, 2011, 02:34:01 pm »
So first eventers should be encouraged?
It is simpler than it looks.

Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
« Reply #179 on: 11 February, 2011, 02:43:17 pm »

For good reason, it seems. I attended the AGM and have no recollection of the Levy being discussed. It's not referenced by the AGM minutes in Arrivee as far as I can see.

The agenda for the AGM is decided and published a month or more in advance. Any decisions taken after that period are for the following AGM to discuss. In this case (as has happened in the past with various items) we shall probably be asking the meeting to retrospectively approve the move. Remember, it's not due to be implemented until next season.

As there is now a new events secretary in post, there may be further changes proposed - who knows.

DanialW

Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
« Reply #180 on: 11 February, 2011, 02:57:58 pm »
So first eventers should be encouraged?

I think any nascent organiser should be encouraged, but at the same time the bar needs to set higher so that organisers have to work harder to get an event in the calendar.

I don't think that it's just a matter of experience either, as I also think that current organisers should not be able to organise new events unchallenged. Audax UK cannot easily limit or refuse new events, with the additional risk that any refused event will generate a 'save the xxxxxshire 200' campaign.

But I'm not events sec anymore; these are my personal views.

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
« Reply #181 on: 11 February, 2011, 03:23:57 pm »

For good reason, it seems. I attended the AGM and have no recollection of the Levy being discussed. It's not referenced by the AGM minutes in Arrivee as far as I can see.

The agenda for the AGM is decided and published a month or more in advance. Any decisions taken after that period are for the following AGM to discuss. In this case (as has happened in the past with various items) we shall probably be asking the meeting to retrospectively approve the move. Remember, it's not due to be implemented until next season.

As there is now a new events secretary in post, there may be further changes proposed - who knows.

Thanks for the clarification, Ian.

This was not my understanding from the (draft) minutes on the website to which I had been referred.

Quote
The upshot was a unanimous vote to levy a £10 pre-registration fee per event per year which would include 20 free
Brevet cards to take effect from the start of the 2010/11 season. (my italics.)
"

Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
« Reply #182 on: 11 February, 2011, 03:34:49 pm »


Thanks for the clarification, Ian.

This was not my understanding from the (draft) minutes on the website to which I had been referred.

Quote
The upshot was a unanimous vote to levy a £10 pre-registration fee per event per year which would include 20 free
Brevet cards to take effect from the start of the 2010/11 season. (my italics.)
"

Ah! A typo. I hadn't noticed that. I shall have words with our Hon Sec. ;)

Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
« Reply #183 on: 11 February, 2011, 04:27:35 pm »
I think my comment earlier about "minding our own business" was probably ill-advised and poorly expressed in the heat of the moment.  I apologise, and welcome Danial's further contribution to this discussion.

I must confess that (simple chap that I am) I remain a little confused, with one suggestion that this move is to help address the shortfall on card production / validation costs (a perfectly good reason) and another that there is a need to stifle some smaller events (OK, that's not exactly what was said, but it appears to be the underlying agenda).  It may be that the latter has nothing to do with the registration fee, which is hardly going to be much of a barrier.

I find I have a lot of agreement with Danial's comments.  I'm sure we have all attended events (and not necessarily with small fields) that fell well short of AUK's normal standards.  And the issue of increasing cancellations could well indicate a reducing commitment.  So yes, the bar does need to be set high.  But I'm not convinced that discouraging small events is necessarily a good way forward.

Here in the SouthEast we have any number of events, and it is perfectly reasonable that there should be critical assessment of whether all are "needed" and whether some should be withdrawn.  This is a (very difficult) task of the regional co-ordinators.  But there are parts of the UK that are much more poorly supplied with events.  Not this year, so much, but in a non-PBP year there are major gaps in the calendar in the north of England.  We need to encourage people to come forward with events in these "sparser" areas, not put up more barriers that actually don't impact on the quality of the event.

Many new events will be small the first time they run.  If they are successful word of mouth (such as on here) will quickly swell the numbers in subsequent years.  If they are not successful (because of poor route, poor organisation, etc) they should be stopped.

Fidgetbuzz

  • L sp MOON. 1st R sp MARS . At X SO sp STARS
Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
« Reply #184 on: 11 February, 2011, 05:02:23 pm »
The £10 fee has little to do with encouraging or discouraging small events.

An organiser is aware of it well in advance of the event running - so if he expects 10 riders - instead of paying AUK £5.50 under the old system he now pays £12. If he cannot cost the extra £6.50 into his event and charge his 10 riders £0.65 extra - then there is something  wrong with the event.

The tenet of this thread seems to be that the organiser is going to be out of pocket by some amount - not true at all - small events would need to see a modest increase in entry fee to leave the organiser in the same financial position as he would have been in.

Look at it from the position of our volunteers - should they be asked to do all the work for an event with 10 riders for AUK to get £5.50 towards covering real costs ( not volunteers time and effort). This seems totally inadequate to me

What has been happening is that events with small numbers of riders have been taking up a lot of time and effort - and riders of those events have not been asked to recognise this in any way.

There is a point that is worth thinking about - is the £10 fee payable up front on listing- that leaves  organisers out of pocket for some months - and if the final decision has not yet been made maybe the brevet card fee of a minimum of £10 might be paid at a date closer to the actual event date - then the organiser is not having to fund this sum for too long.
I was an accountant until I discovered Audax !!

Billy Weir

Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
« Reply #185 on: 11 February, 2011, 06:41:57 pm »
No need to patronise us with the ABC of organising.  I think most of the posters on this thread have organised an event.

Don't forget that organisers are volunteers too.  Having small fields are a disproportionate burden on us, possibly more so than on AUK.

Your analysis fails to recognise that no justification has been given for the registration fee.  You are simply putting forward a thesis.  One that I think misjudges why some of us are questioning this.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
« Reply #186 on: 11 February, 2011, 06:59:40 pm »
Not getting any patronising vibe here. Which bit is patronising?
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
« Reply #187 on: 11 February, 2011, 07:07:59 pm »
Well, for starters, I doubt many Calendar event organisers are in it for the money.

Hummers

  • It is all about the taste.
Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
« Reply #188 on: 11 February, 2011, 07:15:16 pm »
I'm not an organiser but have helped on events so have an insight into the amount of graft that has to go into quite modest events by people with (quite often) families and full-time jobs. Even so, I wouldn't be put off organising an event by the £10 minimum fee although it's still not clear to me what this will actually achieve.

What would and does put me off is some of the posts on this thread: high-handed, overly defensive (to even the slightest of challenges) and as for 'up the bar', who the hell do people think the are?

H

Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
« Reply #189 on: 11 February, 2011, 07:58:34 pm »
well said hummers, i think some one is trying to turn audax in to something it is not!!!
i have been riding them for 20years now,we have all ways had small events as for making the bar higher,
dave hundson runs some of the best events we have ever had but now only up to 600!!
how long before along with other organisers we lose them and there rides.

my events seem to get 25 to 40 riders a number i am happy with i dont want large fields.
maybe AUK does not want people like me anymore!!

Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
« Reply #190 on: 11 February, 2011, 08:04:20 pm »
I think most of the posters on this thread have organised an event.

I'm one what hasn't, being a relative newbie, but I suppose that in some future time I might feel called to do so.

Your analysis fails to recognise that no justification has been given for the registration fee. 

I disagree, I think ample justification has been given in the preceeding pages.   And FWIW, no, it would not put me off becoming a new organiser.

Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
« Reply #191 on: 11 February, 2011, 08:10:04 pm »
I'm now off to the handbook to find out how to win a trophy...............

OJ Simpson won the Heisman Trophy as the best college player of 1968. As a running back for the Univ. of Southern California.

Don't think he read the AUK handbook, so there's hope for us all.
where you have a concentration of power in a few hands, all too frequently men with the mentality of gangsters get control. History has proven that. Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
« Reply #192 on: 11 February, 2011, 08:34:07 pm »
Your analysis fails to recognise that no justification has been given for the registration fee. 

I disagree, I think ample justification has been given in the preceeding pages.   And FWIW, no, it would not put me off becoming a new organiser.

But has it?

If it's to try to reduce the small events, the concensus seems to be that it wouldn't (and some, including me, believe it shouldn't).

If it's to try to reduce the shortfall on card production and validation, it seems an odd way to go about it.  Taking 2009/10 as an example, there were 510 events if you strip out the overseas events, arrows/darts and the 24TT.  These had 211 different start locations.  While some organisers have more than one start location, there are equally some start locations with more than one organiser, so probably balance out (and there was a limit how far I was willing to go on this!).  So that is a minimum of over 200 ADDITIONAL payments for the treasurer to process (probably a lot more - that figure assumes that all organisers of multiple events will register all of their events at the same time).

Someone up-thread suggested this might raise about £1500 extra.  There were 19471 validations last year.  If the card fee was put up by 10p per card it would raise more (considerably more, as DNSs cost a card fee, and most organisers order more cards than they need).  And this would not be at all regressive, would involve no additional transactions, and given that card fees have not changed in the time I've been organising (6 or 7 years) would be unlikely to create much discussion.

As I've said before, I've no objection to either of the reasons propounded for this change.  It just seems an odd way to achieve either objective.

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
« Reply #193 on: 11 February, 2011, 08:54:57 pm »
This two year PBP season has highlighted the huge disparity between AUK and ACP validation costs (20p for a BR, £1 for a BRM for those that don't know).  I am not aware of BRM events being boycotted on grounds of cost. Maybe they are; is there any analysis of event cost v rider levels?

As an organiser I bitterly resent writing validation cheques where the lions share goes overseas, and as a rider rejoiced that last year was a low mileage year for me and so ACP saw little of my cash beyond my SR rides. I also tend to ride quite a lot of perms because of the lack of local calendar events in my under populated part of the country. As a rider, if the cost of entry & validation for BR/BP events was increased to, say, £1 (a massive extra 25p) I certainly wouldn't blink.

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
« Reply #194 on: 11 February, 2011, 08:56:29 pm »
Comparing the different types of events, my impression is that Calendar events are far more efficient toi administer then Perms/DIY Perms. AIUI, similar tasks are performed for the different event types only by different people.  For Calendar events the admin is farmed out to event Organisers via the regional event Orgs, perms to Perm Orgs via the Perm Secretary and DIY Perms to regional DIY Orgs. The big difference is that Event Orgs look after established routes ridden 'in bulk' whereas Perms & DIYs are progressed at a slower rate. For DIY Perms there is inevitably a duplication of effort and costs at the Org level compared to Calendar events for individual and group rides as each has to be administered as a seperate 'event'. From the riders perspective entering a DIY Perm is all 'cost' they get nothing back beyond a validated brevet. On a regular perm they get a routesheet and for a calendar much more.

At the central level I'd have thought the validation process for the different event types was rather similar, the big effort cost for the validation team, Sue & Keith, being the number of different Organisers they have to deal for Calendars and the slow drip of regular Perms. I cannot see the size of the field for calendar events has much impact, and if it did it would be regular perms which caused the most effort. I'd welcome their comments on this.

Whilst I don't believe organisers are in it for the money, S&K are definitely aiming for sainthood.

DanialW

Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
« Reply #195 on: 11 February, 2011, 09:22:58 pm »
What would and does put me off is some of the posts on this thread: high-handed, overly defensive (to even the slightest of challenges) and as for 'up the bar', who the hell do people think the are?

I'm a member of Audax UK, giving my personal opinion.

I don't ask you to agree with me, but I certainly don't expect that sort of insulting response.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
« Reply #196 on: 12 February, 2011, 11:42:41 am »
The £10 fee has little to do with encouraging or discouraging small events.

<snip>

There is a point that is worth thinking about - is the £10 fee payable up front on listing- that leaves  organisers out of pocket for some months - and if the final decision has not yet been made maybe the brevet card fee of a minimum of £10 might be paid at a date closer to the actual event date - then the organiser is not having to fund this sum for too long.
Seems like a good idea.

The "New Organiser?" notes suggest running a 200k + short "supporting" events if you're new to the game. So Paying fees 6-9 months in advance of a completely new event could be a big disincentive.
Leaving aside the question of small events being good/bad, we DO need a steady supply of new organisers, so anthing that discourages them needs strong justification.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
« Reply #197 on: 12 February, 2011, 12:58:46 pm »

£10 ?    Big disincentive  ?     

Way I look at it... (PERSONAL opinion from the POV of someone who might one day be a potential organiser)

I am not particularly well-off but £10 is not a huge sum.... it's more of an incentive to think seriously about need for the event(s) that I propose and to get it properly organised and publicized (which will take 6 - 9 months anyway). 

£50 or £100 would be a disincentive.   Not £10.

JohnHamilton

Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
« Reply #198 on: 12 February, 2011, 01:10:55 pm »

£10 ?    Big disincentive  ?     

Way I look at it... (PERSONAL opinion from the POV of someone who might one day be a potential organiser)

I am not particularly well-off but £10 is not a huge sum.... it's more of an incentive to think seriously about need for the event(s) that I propose and to get it properly organised and publicized (which will take 6 - 9 months anyway). 

£50 or £100 would be a disincentive.   Not £10.

That was exactly the idea AIUI. Payment in arrears would not have the same effect.

It is still recommended that organisers be backed up by a club so it would be not unreasonable to have your club fund it.

Re: £10 registration fee per event for organisers
« Reply #199 on: 12 February, 2011, 01:15:21 pm »

£10 ?    Big disincentive  ?     

Way I look at it... (PERSONAL opinion from the POV of someone who might one day be a potential organiser)

I am not particularly well-off but £10 is not a huge sum.... it's more of an incentive to think seriously about need for the event(s) that I propose and to get it properly organised and publicized (which will take 6 - 9 months anyway). 

£50 or £100 would be a disincentive.   Not £10.
That was my understanding too, which I said 8 days ago back on page 1 !!!