The Bread Thread

[Gattopardo]

Both breads failed to rise.

[Mrs Pingu]

Today was a bad bread day.

Using Flatus' recipe, I thought things would be OK. The difference between this attempt (which was an abject failure) and the previous (which was a success) was that I used all white flour. The previous attempt had around 70g wholemeal.  I suspect this is why the dough was so sticky this time and as my kneading is by hand it I found it too stciky to knead properly. The proving went OK but the shaping was a combination of Loud Bad Swears, some throwing of objects and a sticky mess on my hands. I managed to persuade it into the proving basket but it was fairly structureless.

Things got better when it came to tipping out the proving basket onto the floured pizza stone. Firstly the dough clung to the basket, so what ended up on the stone was a bit torn. I slashed it with a razor blade and picked up the stone. I was a bit hasty and the dough then slid off the floured stone onto the the cooker. Fuck fuck fuck.

I rescued it and stuck it in the oven, covering it with an upturned casserole. Then I didn't hear the timer so it came out burnt.

Tastes nice enough though.

We've all had a day like that. As Flatus say, but not just strength, I've found wholemeal flour takes a different amount of water than white, so when changing ratios of a familiar recipe it pays to be canny with the water.

[citoyen]

Tasted pretty good.  I reckon it'll catch on.

You know what would enhance that, don’t you? A nice bit of pineapple.

[Gattopardo]

Tasted pretty good.  I reckon it'll catch on.

You know what would enhance that, don’t you? A nice bit of pineapple.

Wrong thread

[citoyen]

Today was a bad bread day.

Please forgive me - if I laugh, it's from recognition.

I found it too sticky to knead properly. The proving went OK but the shaping was a combination of Loud Bad Swears, some throwing of objects and a sticky mess on my hands. I managed to persuade it into the proving basket but it was fairly structureless.

Have you tried oiling your hands?

I had some success yesterday with a "no knead" loaf. Just mix the ingredients roughly in the bowl, leave it to stand 10 minutes, stretch and fold, leave to stand another 10 minutes, stretch and fold again, then leave to ferment in the fridge overnight. Shape and final prove in the morning.

Higher water content allows gluten to form without kneading.

I would share a picture but the finished loaf didn't last long enough to take one.

Tastes nice enough though.

See, this is the thing you always need to remember - unless you end up with a real brick, fresh home-baked bread usually tastes pretty good even when it looks like shite. And ultimately, that's the goal - to produce a tasty loaf. Who really gives a fuck what it looks like on Instagram?

You also need to accept that unless you use a very strong flour, all-white dough with high water content just doesn't hold its shape so well. A lot can be achieved with good shaping technique (I'm a long way from perfect on this but getting better with practice), but it's always going to splat a little bit when turned out of the banneton.

You could also try playing around with proving times - eg reducing the first proving time (don't let it get fully doubled in size).

[Tim Hall]

All useful stuff, thanks.

Climbing up the learning curve, is protein content directly related to strength of the flour?

The Sainsbury white bread flour I used is 13.9% protein.

I got two bags of hastily repackaged Tesco bread flour yesterday with a measily 11.3% protein.  The Allinson plain white I have is 9.9%, so not that far behind.

The Marriages website (flour.co.uk) has Manitoba Strong White at a massive 14.9%. I've just ordered some...

Good tip about oiling hands - I had tried dipping rthem in water with limited success.

[citoyen]

Climbing up the learning curve, is protein content directly related to strength of the flour?

Tbh, I think 'strong' is just another way of saying 'high protein' (over 13%) in this context. At least, that's how I understand it. There may be a more technically nuanced definition.

The Marriages website (flour.co.uk) has Manitoba Strong White at a massive 14.9%. I've just ordered some...

That's the good shit.

If I hadn't just got a new 16kg sack of flour from our local baker, I would follow your example.

[Mrs Pingu]

I made another sourdough today. Gods, it was a wet bugger. Ostensibly I was using the same recipe as usual, however, last night when I made the production leaven it was late and I'd had rather a lot to drink and I started using the wrong recipe which has a different ratio of wholemeal to white in it. I noticed my mistake and tried to bodge round it but I can only assume the ratio was still not correct cos I had I right trial folding the dough this morning until I eventually stuck a bit more wholemeal in it.
(For the record when folding I oil the worktop and my hands).

Anyway, what I wanted to ask the panel was - my sourdough is always a bit saggy when I turn it out of the banneton, so I was thinking about trying to reduce the hydration a little. Currently it's at 72% hydration (god, I hate bakers percentages) so how much does the panel reckon I should start tweaking it down by?

[citoyen]

so how much does the panel reckon I should start tweaking it down by?

Try 60%. Which may not be as huge a difference in the actual water content as it sounds - maybe a couple of tablespoons worth, depending on the size of your loaf.

I've had decent results at 55% - never as light and airy as the higher hydration levels but much, much easier to handle.

Who wants huge holes in their bread anyway? You need a bit of structure to hold the butter.

[Mrs Pingu]

Cripes, going from 72 to 60% would mean going from 432g to 360g water in a 1kg loaf

[neilrj]

2 loaves today. One is HF's sourdough (V3).

Left Hand is yeasted (years since we've used yeast) and the other is HF's sourdough recipe/method, sourdough is a bit 'caramalised' (burnt), adjusted temp. for yeasted baked a bit later. The yeasted had a massive bakers attic/mouse skyscraper - it is now croutons...

I think our new pizza steel kept the oven at a more stable (high) temp. so it is darker than V1/2 - it is a brilliant flavour though.
Pizza steel test is for another post.

[pcolbeck]

50% rye 50% wholemeal and the water replaced with Black Sheep bitter.

This is a brick of a loaf. Very dense but tasty. Only rose about half as much as a 50% rye 50% white flour loaf.

[hellymedic]

Interesting.

I am no yeast/brewing/fermentation expert but have vague recollections that yeast becomes inactive above a certain alcohol content, which limits the eventual strength of a beverage.

I'm therefore not surprised this rose less.

[pcolbeck]

I had the idea after a comment I saw on twitter about beer being a great substitute for water with rye bread. Perhaps not all of the water though ....

[hellymedic]

I think brewers' yeast might be more alcohol tolerant than normal baking yeast. I'm still no yeast/fermentation expert, though might do some reading.

[hatler]

Yeast would seem to live up to about 13% (otherwise how would wine happen).

I can't see that beer (ABV approx 5%) would kill it.

[Wowbagger]

50% rye 50% wholemeal and the water replaced with Black Sheep bitter.

This is a brick of a loaf. Very dense but tasty. Only rose about half as much as a 50% rye 50% white flour loaf.

Whole meal never seems to rise as readily as strong white.

The brown flour I use rises beautifully but the Miller has added ascorbic acid.

I would be inclined to agree wit Hatler. Yeast dies, or at least becomes dormant, at about 15% alcohol. In baking, it is the high temperature that kills it, not the alcohol content.

[Tim Hall]

A much better bread day. Kept a close eye on the water and ended up using 225ml instead of 250ml, so not much of a reduction.  The dough was a bit sticky but a combination of lightly oiled hands and a bit of dusting meant kneading went much better.


Shaped dough about to go in the basket.

230C oven, baked on a pizza stone with an inverted stainless casorole doing cloche duties.


I think I could tweak the water content up a wee bit more - the structure is a bit on the dense side but nothing disastrous.

[citoyen]

The Sainsbury white bread flour I used is 13.9% protein.

I got two bags of hastily repackaged Tesco bread flour yesterday with a measily 11.3% protein.  The Allinson plain white I have is 9.9%, so not that far behind.

I wonder if stuff that is packaged as 'bread flour' is a bit like the stuff you used to get called 'whipping cream' - for whipping, you want a high fat content, so double cream (defined as 48% butterfat) is best. You might imagine something called 'whipping cream' would be specially designed for the job and therefore have an even higher fat content, but in fact it was a cheaper alternative to double cream that had just enough fat content to make it whippable - and also be more tolerant to overwhipping without turning to butter. I don't think I've seen 'whipping cream' on sale for some years though.

Likewise, I suspect 'bread flour' is just strong enough to make bread (probably optimised for machines) while also being low enough in protein to result in a nice soft crumb, as opposed to 'strong flour' which has to pass a defined threshold for protein content. Higher protein will also result in chewier bread, which may or may not be a desirable quality.

The flour I got from our local baker friends is just 12.3% - that is just labelled as 'flour' (ie not 'strong' or 'bread'). This is a loaf I made on Sunday, using just this flour, at about 66% hydration:

- not as much 'spring' as I'd like, but I put that down to not using a cloche/dutch oven, and I suspect I didn't give it quite long enough at the final proving stage either. But the key thing to note is that it held its shape pretty well, no collapsing when turned out of the banneton. The point being that it is possible to achieve a decent loaf with all white flour and high(ish) hydration, even with relatively low protein flour. It's all in the shaping, as I believe Flatus has previously noted.

Also worth noting that stoneground flour will take more water than the bog-standard, highly refined roller-milled stuff - this is because it has higher bran content (and bran absorbs water more readily than germ, which is why wholemeal loaves need much higher water content).

A much better bread day.

 

[Ham]

Likewise, I suspect 'bread flour' is just strong enough to make bread (probably optimised for machines) while also being low enough in protein to result in a nice soft crumb, as opposed to 'strong flour' which has to pass a defined threshold for protein content. Higher protein will also result in chewier bread, which may or may not be a desirable quality.

Well, duh, yes. With the exception that it is NOT optimised for bread machines, which appear to prefer strong flour, likely because they struggle to knead properly. Those of us who have been home baking for (ever) have noticed that average bread flours have become stronger. Where 12-13% used to be the norm, these days 13-15% appears more usually. When hand kneading, this means you can get away with far less than you once would.

[citoyen]

With the exception that it is NOT optimised for bread machines, which appear to prefer strong flour, likely because they struggle to knead properly.

Ah!

Maybe that's why I was never really happy with the results from our bread machine...

[hellymedic]

I wonder if stuff that is packaged as 'bread flour' is a bit like the stuff you used to get called 'whipping cream' - for whipping, you want a high fat content, so double cream (defined as 48% butterfat) is best. You might imagine something called 'whipping cream' would be specially designed for the job and therefore have an even higher fat content, but in fact it was a cheaper alternative to double cream that had just enough fat content to make it whippable - and also be more tolerant to overwhipping without turning to butter. I don't think I've seen 'whipping cream' on sale for some years though.

[OTish]

Sainsbury's do seem to be selling whipping cream (green pot ~40% fat, as well as single cream-red pot, 18% fat and double cream blue pot 48% fat).

[pcolbeck]

With the exception that it is NOT optimised for bread machines, which appear to prefer strong flour, likely because they struggle to knead properly.

Ah!

Maybe that's why I was never really happy with the results from our bread machine...

I've switched to Hercules strong white flour milled locally in Driffield. Big difference in the bread machine. My MiL who we have bought some for too (we are doing her shopping in lockdown) says its much better than the supermarket stuff for her manual bread making as well.
For any of you local to North Yorkshire apparently its the flour Thomas' uses in their bakeries.
I'm not sure if you can actually buy it pre-packaged in small bags though, we get it from a scoop shop where they have it delivered in sacks.

[citoyen]

Sainsbury's do seem to be selling whipping cream (green pot ~40% fat, as well as single cream-red pot, 18% fat and double cream blue pot 48% fat).

Tbh, I don’t buy cream that often so probably just haven’t noticed it on the shelves (among the million other varieties that are available these days).

Apparently the ‘extra thick’ stuff is just double cream that has been rapidly heated and cooled.

[Tim Hall]

16 kg Canadian flour delivered to work.


I'll find out this evening how hard it is to pedal it home.