Author Topic: etrex30: long distance planning  (Read 2202 times)

Andrij

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etrex30: long distance planning
« on: 29 July, 2012, 04:59:30 pm »
As some of you may have seen, I've had to (temporarily) abandon my Camino due to Garmin issues. (BTW, I will try to be very accurate with my use of route and track in this post, as I realise the distinction is important.)

1) the map of France I copied onto the etrex would not load
I've tried it a few times without success.  I'm assuming there's something wrong with the file so have found one from another source, downloading as I type.

2) I have, in the past, used routes without any problem, but not this time
Here's what I did.
I map my course at ridewithgps.com, then save what I've created as .gpx.  The .gpx is imported into Garmin BaseCamp then the track is copied over to the etrex.  I right-click on the track and "create route from selected track", letting the programme choose number of waypoints.  When it's time to set off, I go Route Planner -> {select route} -> View Map -> Go.
In the past this has worked just fine.  This time around the route petered out as I approached Dartford - and I still had to get to Canterbury and Dover!  On the train back it looked like the track carried on all the way to Dover.

So, have I done something wrong, or just 'not correctly'?  Should I ignore routes and use tracks?  Is there a trick I'm missing?  Is it just as simple as doing this all in smaller chunks?

F1! F1! F1!

While use wise ones cogitate then point out my basic failings I'm off to the other computer to see if I can get the new French map to load...


ETA:
Any tips, tricks, warning regarding the use of a microSD card to expand memory?
;D  Andrij.  I pronounce you Complete and Utter GIT   :thumbsup:

PaulF

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Re: etrex30: long distance planning
« Reply #1 on: 29 July, 2012, 07:07:38 pm »
I've an eTrex H so this may not apply....

On mine there is a limit to the number of points that it will allow in a track, from memory 250. At this point the track just ends, but you do get a message saying upload truncated or something similar.

So perhaps your idea of smaller chunks would help.

Andrij

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Re: etrex30: long distance planning
« Reply #2 on: 29 July, 2012, 07:10:32 pm »
Yes, my routes end at '249', but tracks appear to go the whole way.

One bit of good news so far, I've got a map of France to load (grabbed from different source).  Routes are still truncated.
;D  Andrij.  I pronounce you Complete and Utter GIT   :thumbsup:

dasmoth

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Re: etrex30: long distance planning
« Reply #3 on: 29 July, 2012, 07:12:24 pm »
The track point limit on the new eTrexen is 10,000.  I've never hit the limit in my Oregon (which has pretty similar firmware).

The route point limit is indeed bothersome, but a 250 point route can get you quite a long way, if you're economical with your points.  The point-reduction function on Bikehike works at least tolerably well and may be of some help here.
Half term's when the traffic becomes mysteriously less bad for a week.

Andrij

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Re: etrex30: long distance planning
« Reply #4 on: 29 July, 2012, 07:37:05 pm »
The track point limit on the new eTrexen is 10,000.  I've never hit the limit in my Oregon (which has pretty similar firmware).

The route point limit is indeed bothersome, but a 250 point route can get you quite a long way, if you're economical with your points.  The point-reduction function on Bikehike works at least tolerably well and may be of some help here.

Can you elaborate, please, specifically on 'BikeHike point reduction'?
Also, if tracks go up to 10,000, what is the benefit of using routes? 
;D  Andrij.  I pronounce you Complete and Utter GIT   :thumbsup:

Re: etrex30: long distance planning
« Reply #5 on: 29 July, 2012, 07:50:40 pm »
Yes, my routes end at '249', but tracks appear to go the whole way.

One bit of good news so far, I've got a map of France to load (grabbed from different source).  Routes are still truncated.

The map: what map is it? Is is a routable map?

First of all, are the tracks that you have generated in RWGPS relatively short, e.g. one track per section of your journey? If not, I'd suggest that a series of clearly named per-day tracks will be easier to work with.
When you import the GPX into Basecamp, does the track you are looking at look correct?
If so, I'd suggest that the best way to proceed, given that your time is limited and that you need this all to work, is NOT to use "create route from track" but to use the waypoint tool to create a series of waypoints at essential junctions. This way you can name the waypoints in a useful way and control how many of them there are. Then, select all those waypoints and create a route between them. On the device, do not ask the device to follow roads, select the off-road option or equivalent.

Aim (on the device) to have the track as a reference, a back-up. At the same time, you are following your route - off-road. So, the route will simply go in straight lines between the waypoints you have created. Obviously there are going to be times when your screen may only show your track - the straight-line route between waypoints may be off screen. But as you approach junctions or wherever you have put your waypoints, the route and track will converge.

So, create tracks of reasonable length (e.g. one per day) in RWGPS. Name them in an identifiable way. Open in Basecamp. Zoom in, follow the track, and create a limited number of waypoints at all critical junctions etc etc. Name the waypoints carefully: keep the numerical sequence but add a short instruction to tell you what to do. Create route between those waypoints. Name it in a useful way.

Note that I have only used an Etrex but hopefully the general principles will be the same.
 

Re: etrex30: long distance planning
« Reply #6 on: 29 July, 2012, 08:00:59 pm »
Also, if tracks go up to 10,000, what is the benefit of using routes? 

Tracks are just inert, just a series of points on a map. A trail of breadcrumbs is the oft-used phrase. On an HCx, you cannot do anything with a track other than view it on your device to see where you are in relation to it (and of course as you ride you are creating a track that can be taken off the device later).

A route is a line that connects you to a series of specified "places". The computer (or your device) sees this list of places and works out a way to go between them. If that way is selected as off-road, then that's easy, it just draws lines between them. A route is an active thing, when you try to follow a route the device works out where you are in relation to the appropriate next "place" and directs you, hopefully, that way. It changes, therefore, according to where you are in relation to the waypoints.

A track just sits there. At least on an HCx.

However, the fact that it just sits there is good: you want something that is not going to recalculate itself, it is meant as your reference or back up.

Andrij

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Re: etrex30: long distance planning
« Reply #7 on: 29 July, 2012, 08:23:34 pm »
I have now loaded maps from mapas.alternativaslibres.es (which wiki.openstreetmap.org/OSM_Map_On_Garmin/Download#Europe says are routable) onto my etrex30.  Don't recall where I got the UK maps I'm using, but that's not important right now.

If I've understood things correctly, if I'm using a track and never veer off course I'll be fine, but if I go off course using a route would help me get back?

My tracks/routes were created as single day rides of 110-140km, but each included navigating through cities, which I assume is what took me over the 250 limit.

I've read through SP's instructions a few times and think I understand things (and it's more complicated than I imagined!)  Thankfully I don't have to do my entire journey, but I still have a bit of work ahead of me.
;D  Andrij.  I pronounce you Complete and Utter GIT   :thumbsup:

Re: etrex30: long distance planning
« Reply #8 on: 29 July, 2012, 08:45:07 pm »
I do hope other more knowledgable members than me will along to advise further!

My comments are largely based on working with the HCx - the major relevant limitation being the limit on the number of "places" (I'm using that word to avoid getting trapped in the minefield of different sorts of "places" that tracks and routes can involve) that it can handle in a route. By creating an "off-road" route, i.e. as the crow flies between the places you have specified, you are making it easier to stay within that limit, whereas with "follow-road" by necessity that limit is reached much more quickly, hence your truncation.

Anyway, there are loads of ways of doing this, but the aim is to have a set of tracks on your device, each corresponding identifiably with a manageable section of your tour - per day should work which follow the roads of your intended journey. You can select the appropriate one for that day and ensure that it is displayed. The tracks are to be used as a passive guide to the actual roads you planned to follow. No matter how f-up your route might get, your track is intended to remain unchanged as a reference {I believe the E30 is cleverer than an HCx and may be able to direct you back to a track, but let's not go there for now).

For each of those tracks, you create a route. The route is an active assistant that will direct you in the direction of the next "place" you have created. Ensure the route is within the limits of your device. On an HCx, that limit is so small that follow-roads will not work for anything other than very short trips, so it is best to make them minimalist - "places" at all essential points, junctions, bits that look potentially confusing (create a "place" on the correct fork in the road, e.g.). The E30 may have a higher limit so you could afford to be more generous with the number of places you create and name.

The other thing with creeating your own route as above is that it forces you to look closely at the map. When you zoom in to urban junctions, let's say, you can see the potential for error and can bring in satellite view to clarify, add a usefully located / named "place" and generally it's a good way to really get a feel for what you are going to see in front of you.

Whatever you do, unless an E30 is a drastic improvement on an HCx, don't rely on the device to create your route from scratch or destination-only. There is a high risk that it won't take you the way you want to go. You need to force your route to go where you want it to go by use of carefully chosen places that you create and name yourself. 

dasmoth

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Re: etrex30: long distance planning
« Reply #9 on: 29 July, 2012, 09:27:29 pm »
Can you elaborate, please, specifically on 'BikeHike point reduction'?

  • Load your route into Bikehike (yes, it does work fine outside the UK, although you obviously don't get OS mapping)
  • Click "Options" in the menu panel, find the "Reduce" field in the options window, type in the number of points you want (in your case probably 250)
  • Take a look at the route to make sure Bikehike hasn't butchered it too badly, then save
.
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Quote
Also, if tracks go up to 10,000, what is the benefit of using routes?

Depends if you prefer turn-by-turn directions or a line on the map.  I tend to use tracks myself most of the time, and they work fine for me -- but I can see that having "left into foobar lane" style messages popping up means you can get away with a little less concentration.  If you like turn-by-turn directions, it's probably worth the extra hassle to produce a suitable route file.

If I could change one thing in the Garmin firmware, it would be to add an option that allowed overly-long routes to be viewed as though they were tracks (or just converted into tracks).
Half term's when the traffic becomes mysteriously less bad for a week.

Andrij

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Re: etrex30: long distance planning
« Reply #10 on: 29 July, 2012, 09:38:59 pm »
Thank you, that really clarifies things.

I'm fine with turn-by-turn, follow along on the map, which is how I've used routes in the past (not having hit the 250 limit before).

I've plotted out my 'long' commute for some experimenting.  I'll hope on the Moulton tomorrow at stupid o'clock and play with following the track and following a route which only takes me point to point and see how things go.  But from the sound of things following the tracks I've created should be fine.  What a relief!

Then when I get home I can buy some train tickets.  :thumbsup:
;D  Andrij.  I pronounce you Complete and Utter GIT   :thumbsup:

frankly frankie

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Re: etrex30: long distance planning
« Reply #11 on: 01 August, 2012, 08:18:25 am »
My tracks/routes were created as single day rides of 110-140km, but each included navigating through cities, which I assume is what took me over the 250 limit.

Even in the most laney, turn-infested terrain, you should never need 250 points to navigate along a 140km route.  Even when you go through a city and use a lot of points close together this is easily compensated in more rural areas.
As a very rough rule of thumb, on a typically laney UK network, I reckon an average of 1 point per km, using 'off road', direct or point-to-point routing.  On that basis the points limit of 250 should be good for about 250km.  In more rural areas (mid-Wales, mid-France) you can get much further, maybe 4x, 5x further.
Using 'follow road' or auto-routing, again in the UK, I would say 1 point per 5 km would be very safe (many people would work to 1 per 10km or even more).  In this mode the limit is actually 50 points so that again works out at 250km.  I've just come back from an ad-hoc tour in northern France using quick'n'dirty autorouting and 100-120km per day, each day used about 15 points on average.

Of course if you're downsampling automatically the points may not end up placed in the optimal positions, ie, on the junctions for point-to-point routing.
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