Author Topic: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?  (Read 198199 times)

Chris S

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #175 on: 16 March, 2013, 10:15:35 pm »
Well, in the end - between loops two and three (150km done, 50 to do) - I had a craving for Apple Pie & Custard, so I went for it.

Apart from a bit of indigestion after (probably related to the climb immediately after) all was fine.

Blood ketones before the ride: 0.4mmol (so only just "in ketosis"). When I got home from the ride, it was 2.9mmol which is pretty high, and a good sign. ETA: Sunday a.m.: 1.2mmol  :thumbsup:

Lets hope that one dose of carbs like that is OK.


Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #176 on: 17 March, 2013, 09:41:58 pm »
...... Blood ketones before the ride: 0.4mmol (so only just "in ketosis"). When I got home from the ride, it was 2.9mmol which is pretty high, and a good sign. ETA: Sunday a.m.: 1.2mmol  :thumbsup:
Chris - how exactly are you measuring your ketones - are you doing the pricking-your-finger thing?

And from the 'Uts thread .....
VAM: 344. Rubbish.

Out of interest, what do you think is good?

Well, we did 526 on the same ride last year
What, pray, does "VAM" refer to?

Chris S

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #177 on: 17 March, 2013, 10:11:14 pm »
...... Blood ketones before the ride: 0.4mmol (so only just "in ketosis"). When I got home from the ride, it was 2.9mmol which is pretty high, and a good sign. ETA: Sunday a.m.: 1.2mmol  :thumbsup:
Chris - how exactly are you measuring your ketones - are you doing the pricking-your-finger thing?

There are two ways to measure ketones at home. Method 1: Ketostix + Wee. Ketostix provide a colour-test for Acetyl-Acetone (AcAc) in the urine. AcAc is one of the ketones produced by the liver from stored fat, when you are in a ketogenic state. Presence in the urine shows that AcAc is being produced in excess, so is being dumped by the kidneys. Absence of AcAc does not necessarily mean you are not in a ketogenic state - just that (for some reason) there isn't an excess to be dumped. For this reason, they are considered to be a less accurate measure of ketosis.

Method 2: Ketone strips in conjunction with a Blood monitor such as this: Clickity. These are used by diabetics for testing for ketones, and also blood sugar when using glucose test strips. These test for Beta-hydroxybutyrate, one of the other forms of ketones the body uses for fuel when operating in a low-carb state (eg: starvation, unavailable carbs).

The latter method is deemed to be the most accurate. A value of between 0.5 mmol/ltr and 3.0 mmol/ltr is deemed to be a measure of ketosis. If you maintain levels in this range, and you're not compromised in terms of energy (in fact, you'll probably feel "full of beans") then you are said to be "keto-adapted", a phrase used by messers Volek and Phinney in their book, referenced in several places in this thread. Basically this means your body (including most of the brain function) has adapted to using ketones for fuel, instead of glucose.

And from the 'Uts thread .....
VAM: 344. Rubbish.
What, pray, does "VAM" refer to?

A direct translation of "velocità ascensionale media" is "mean (average) ascent velocity" leading to an expansion of the acronym in English as Velocity, Ascent, Mean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_ascent_velocity

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #178 on: 18 March, 2013, 01:42:45 pm »
............There are two ways to measure ketones at home. .....
I guess you're doing the latter then; OK if you can tolerate needles!

I've been lurking on this thread since the start and read Gary Taube's book with interest (thanks Lindsay - I think!) and then followed it up with Volek  & Phinney. I've only skimmed them really and a lot of the science bits are way above my head. But I don't remember reading anywhere that even a small lapse back into carbs would necessarily put you right back to square one with the keto-adaptation, at least once you're past the initial induction phase.

To start with, I read the books hoping there's be some explanation (other than that carbs are "toxic") as to why calorie restriction just didn't work. All my experience (pretty typical) has been that however long I manage to restrict total calories in, all that happens is that my body stubbornly slows down; it doesn't switch to using fat stores and reducing body fat percentage. I fell into the classic trap a few years ago of cutting calories and increasing my exercise and I did indeed lose weight; but I also lost strength and didn't go any faster on the bike. Hence the "Ploddin" bit. Since then I've steadily regained the weight, all in the form of body blubber and consequently am more "Ploddin" than ever!

This season's good resolutions are to focus more on specific strength building - I might even resort to (look away now) "training"! But I thought I might give the low carb option a go as well. None of what I've what I've read is actually explicit, but it seems that it's still a calorie restricted regime. At least compared with what I'd normally eat (which I freely admit, is where most of my problem lies!).

However, I haven't seen anything which explains why the body, when subjected to tactics designed to make it give up stored body fat, will refuse to do so if it's general calories being restricted but will comply when it's only carbs being restricted.

I have an uneasy feeling that since the low carb proponents admit that "it doesn't work for everyone" I'm going to find once again that I'm in that category where nothing seems to work! (Or am I just being defeatist!?)



A direct translation of "velocità ascensionale media" is "mean (average) ascent velocity" leading to an expansion of the acronym in English as Velocity, Ascent, Mean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_ascent_velocity
You live and learn - fascinating. I should have made the connection, having read about the infamous Dr. Ferrari and his hill tests. That'll be yet another self-evaluation tool I'll be avoiding using - there's only so much humiliation a fellow can stand!

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #179 on: 18 March, 2013, 02:17:03 pm »
I have an uneasy feeling that since the low carb proponents admit that "it doesn't work for everyone" I'm going to find once again that I'm in that category where nothing seems to work! (Or am I just being defeatist!?)
I think I'm in that category too, PP. We committed to this for 3 months and that's just about up, and having lost a bit in the first couple or three weeks, since then I've lost nothing, and my weight graphs give a really pretty pattern of water retention through the week:

The dips are pre-audax, not post.
I've been pretty demoralised about it, but, the big win for me is hunger management. Here we are post-audax, traditionally Teh Hunger Zone and I haven't eaten the entire contents of my shelves.
I've stopped counting calories/carbs/exercise as it was just making me miserable- whatever my supposed deficit it made/makes no difference on the scale. Bollocks to that.
I suppose I'm looking for a way of eating where my weight is managed without willpower, and unless I ride about 100k/day I don't think I'll ever find it. Willpower is a really bad way of doing anything; it's tiring and doomed to failure.
In the meantime, I'll stay at 85kg and eat whatever I fancy- as long as it doesn't have carbs- and at least I won't feel too deprived?

Chris S

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #180 on: 18 March, 2013, 04:43:49 pm »
This blog post (from a scary looking guy with a Truck and a compound bow - clearly a Good 'Ol Boy) has some interesting stuff, that I think Vintagesteel was alluding to: Clickity.

Keto-adaptation refers to quite a fragile state that is highly sensitive to interruption from the carb/insulin metabolic cycle - and once interrupted, takes a few days to re-establish.

I'm guessing if you really struggled to get keto-adapted in the first place, then getting knocked back for another spell of adaptation is not desirable.

I think I'm only just flirting with proper nutritional ketosis; my pre-ride ketone level of 0.4mmol was outside the prescribed range as suggested by Volek & Phinney (0.5 to 3.0 being the "right" range).

Need to keep an eagle eye for hidden carbs.

Andrew

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #181 on: 18 March, 2013, 04:59:07 pm »
I don't think weight loss and audax are easy bed fellows. Precisely because of the post-ride munchies. If a low carb (or rather high fat & protein) diet can resolve that then I'm interested.

Yes, yes, I acknowledge many people have lost pounds through cycling but suggest that's usually in conjunction with a calorie reduced diet - and darned good will power!

Last week, I ordered the Volek book mentioned upstream. Should be here Weds. I'll read with great interest what they have to say.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #182 on: 18 March, 2013, 10:03:19 pm »
I have an uneasy feeling that since the low carb proponents admit that "it doesn't work for everyone" I'm going to find once again that I'm in that category where nothing seems to work! (Or am I just being defeatist!?)
I think I'm in that category too, PP. We committed to this for 3 months and that's just about up, .........

I can't really comment, other than to sympathise, because I haven't properly tried it yet and made it work. I'm rather hanging my hopes on the thought that it might work for me but I should expect it to take a lot longer than someone who's younger/ more athletic/just different. After all if it's taken me 25 years to train my body "bad" I can hardly expect to turn it around in "five minutes" i.e. i'm expecting it to take many, many months if it works at all. It's bloody annoying though when other people seem to get great results overnight, but that's a commonly reported feature of any "diet that works"!

One of the things that puts me off though is the difficulty of handling the "out to the restaurant with Mrs PP for a treat" and the thought of doing without BEER! And food on the Audax is a problem, as Chris discussed elsewhere.

Ho hum.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #183 on: 18 March, 2013, 10:08:26 pm »
This blog post (from a scary looking guy with a Truck and a compound bow - clearly a Good 'Ol Boy) has some interesting stuff, that I think Vintagesteel was alluding to: Clickity.
Crikey, yes - scary!

Quite a lot to digest in there though - I'll need to read that another time - I need to go prepare the bike now!


Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #184 on: 19 March, 2013, 06:52:46 pm »
This blog post (from a scary looking guy with a Truck and a compound bow - clearly a Good 'Ol Boy) has some interesting stuff, that I think Vintagesteel was alluding to: Clickity.

A very plausible post, I thought, but then again, I'm gullible. Happily I'm also weak willed, so whilst I believe it I don't do it.

Anyway Mr Primal said it's not for athletes such as myself.*

Edit: * i.e., doing regular HIT sessions. His view is that a ketogenic diet is generally glycogen sparing as the body adapts to burn ketones rather than glycogen, saving glyocgen as a top fuel along with ATP called on during periods of intense activity.

However if the athlete is undertaking regular (daily) HIT sessions, glycogen stores will be depleted faster than they can be replenished by gluconeogenesis, whilst a plate of pasta will take you straight back to carb burning mode.

On this basis, it occurs to me that whilst a ketogenic diet might suit geared riders (or fixers in flatland) who are in a position to manage their power output/heart rate, the diet isn't for fixers surrounded by the Chilterns and the Surrey Hills who spend a significant amount of time above their aerobic threshold. That's just a suppostition though.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #185 on: 03 April, 2013, 09:21:25 pm »
Those who are testing their ketones..... Has it taken pretty much dropping carbs totally to get there or is 'lower carb' getting you there.

I've got the sports science degree, I'm a nutritionist blablabla but I obviously don't believe the traditional stuff works for everyone any more. Exercise yes, diet, no. The 'normal' scientific principles just Do Not Work for me.

I don't really eat many carbs after my porridge for breakfast apart from fruit and veg. I don't eat stuff like bread, potatoes and pasta. I guess I'm wondering if I drop the porridge as well, and all my carbs come from fruit/veg, would I avoid ketosis as I'm still having some? (I don't want to go into ketosis but want to drop carbs)

Chris S

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #186 on: 03 April, 2013, 10:12:05 pm »
Erm - it sounds like you know more about this than me!

My understanding is this. The more you restrict carbs, the more your body adjusts to burn fat instead. This leads to generation of ketones. You enter "ketosis". Hell - this can happen overnight - most carb-burners are in some level of ketosis (maybe not measurable) by morning, after a night's sleep.

TBH I have no idea what my ketone level was on my previous diet. On the restricted diet I've been on, there have been measurable ketones in my wee and blood. If I'm very restricted - the amount in my blood is quite high. Probably if I kept this up for weeks (probably a couple of months), my body would adapt to burning these ketones as a default fuel source - in almost complete replacement for a glycogen-based existence.

Everything I've read (which is by no means definitive) suggests, none of this is a good idea if you have kidney issues. If you are already under medical care - I'd discuss it with them.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #187 on: 03 April, 2013, 10:19:37 pm »
I've thought about discussing it with them...... I know the answer they will give though ;) In the same way they think 'occasional gentle exercise' might do me good ;)

Oh I'm just frustrated and want to try sonething new.....but I realise I can't let things get quite high, so can't totally restrict carbs.... But I guess it's working out how much I can restrict them, or what to take out where.....I've just downloaded that why we get fat book, so will have a butchers....

Chris S

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #188 on: 04 April, 2013, 07:41:49 am »
Time for a three month review.

Boab and I gave the keto diet a shot to (a) lose some lard, and (b) enter some kind of "bonk proof" energy state.

For me - it has been a 100% success, Boab less so in the weightloss department. Here's a summary of my experience:

Pros:
Steady energy flow all day.
No need for bonk rations on audaxes. In fact, food for fuel is a complete non-issue on rides. This for me is the biggie.
Fat loss (for me, at least), with not much loss of lean mass.
Improved digestive health (this took a while - I was bunged up at first, but that phase passes [sic]).
Lower blood pressure.
Improved appetite management

Cons:
Inconvenient. Cafes, and audax controls don't understand low-carb, and why should they?
I sometimes miss certain foods.
No Beer  :(

My plan is to stick with it, with some minor changes. I'll keep general day to day carbs <50g; it's not hard to do, and it maintains the "fat for fuel default state". On audax rides, I'll probably be less strict about carbs. I've not noticed any disturbance in the force when I've upped the carbs on recent rides, although it's by no means carte blanche to eat cake and sweeties.

I suspect I'm not really in that magic state that Volek and Phinney describe, which is an extreme glycogen sparing state. Getting blood ketones high enough for long enough for that, takes a lot of dedication - and daily carbs of <30g. I'll leave that to the likes of Jimmy Moore and Peter Attia.
But keeping carbs <50g most of the time seems to be enough to ensure I burn fat for fuel, nearly all the time - even when riding, and that's good enough for me, I think.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #189 on: 04 April, 2013, 09:49:19 am »
For me - it has been a partial success, initial weightloss in January but nothing in February or March.
My experience:

Pros:
Steady energy flow all day.
No need for bonk rations on audaxes. In fact, food for fuel is a complete non-issue on rides.
Improved appetite management: An end to feeling at the mercy of food. I might have lost more weight on DrMekon's porridge & apples plan, but the cost was very high. I didn't lose at the predicted rate, and what felt like constant deprivation led to more obsession with food. I looked forward to audax days so I could eat things I liked.
Currently, I can forget about food for hours at a time. I can eat only at mealtimes and be fine with that, whatever I'm doing. Keeping under 2,000 calories eaten is easy. I eat breakfast, or not. I can skip breakfast, lunch, or tea, if I'm not hungry, and sometimes I'm not hungry  :o. There's no compensatory eating later if I do eat less at a meal.

Cons:
Inconvenient. Cafes, and audax (village hall type) controls don't understand low-carb, and why should they?
I sometimes miss certain foods. Fruit, mostly.

I generally eat more protein than is recommended and this is probably a contributory factor to the lack-of-weightloss, but I can't bring myself to eat cream or butter rather than cheese. The bodybuilders reckon you need more protein if you're to build muscle and lose fat, and I'd rather do that than not. :shrug:
I also have the slowest metabolism in the world- me & the Galapogas Giant Tortoises, and I'm starting to wonder if there's anything I could do to attain the weightloss that should be theoretically possible given the calories in/calories out I process.
I'll be sticking to it for the foreseeable. Doing without cake, biscuits and bread is much easier than you think it'll be. And alcohol hasn't been a regular feature of my diet for years, so I barely notice that's gone.

Adam

  • It'll soon be summer
    • Charity ride Durness to Dover 18-25th June 2011
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #190 on: 04 April, 2013, 08:44:34 pm »
This whole process has been most enlightening. 

My girlfriend Rebecca (vintagesteel) started doing a ketogenic diet last November, having suffered with IBS all her life and wanting to try something to lose a bit of weight.  Since dropping the carbs, her IBS issues have gone away.  This tends to vindicate the Volek & Phinney theory that a large proportion of the population are to a greater or lesser extent, carbohydrate intolerant.  She's lost quite a bit of weight but like fboab seems to have reached a plateau at the moment, but it's possible her daily intake of carbs needs to be lowered more.

About 3 years ago, despite a lot of cycling, my weight had gone up to 85kg, and after calorie counting (ie smaller portions and reducing the numbers of cakes and biscuits), I'd slowly got it down to around 78 kg, but couldn't really get it any lower, and I still had a bit of a beer gut.  Having read the original Atkins book and then the Art & Science of low carb living, I could understand the principle behind it, if not all of the science.  Having seen the benefits from Rebecca's experience, on 1st March I started following a low carb diet as well.  Within 2 weeks I'd lost 4 kg, but as Chris mentioned above, noticed a distinct lack of "oomph", and definitely felt I'd lost a good 20-25% of top end energy when cycling.

In the last couple of weeks, I'd say I've got almost all of that energy back, and certainly on last week's Felpham FNRttC, I didn't have any issue with zooming along at the front, and the hills weren't an issue at all.  My weight is now around 73 kg and I've had to buy new shirts and trousers.

In the past, I'd be starving hungry by 11 am and have to have my lunch.  Similarly I'd have to have food again by the end of the afternoon.  Now, I just don't have those peaks and troughs of needing to stuff my face. 

It really is quite weird, but does show just how addictive carbs/sugar are.  Whilst those on a modern carbohydrate rich diet have to watch their fat intake and calorie count; on a ketogenic diet, it's so much simpler.  The body has plenty of reserves of fat to run on if your stomach is empty, rather than having to rely on the artificial high produced by carbs.  Another minor benefit is a reduction in the use of toilet paper, seeing as there's less throughput!  So it's good for the trees as well.
“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving.” -Albert Einstein

Chris S

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #191 on: 04 April, 2013, 09:07:01 pm »
To me, it feels like I have a flywheel inside - providing a steady flow of energy. It's still quite hard to wind it up high, so I still puff and pant when cycling up hill, but for long distance steady riding, it's brilliant. Hunger is no longer an imperative - it's a gentle reminder, and when I eat - it just gives the spinning flywheel a renewed tweak. If I don't eat, it's no disaster - even after 100km of audax-pace riding.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #192 on: 07 April, 2013, 08:09:09 pm »
I've only just seen Adam's contribution to this thread and am mulling over what more I could usefully add about my own experience.

I see that a lot of the questions that have popped up in the past week are about (a) keto-adaptation and/or (b) how you adjust carb intake (and/or ratio to fat intake) when you have a specific time-restricted need for substantially more energy e.g. doing an audax.

These are dealt with in Volek & Phinney's follow-up book THE ART AND SCIENCE OF LOW CARBOHYDRATE PERFORMANCE (which I'll refer to as "PERFORMANCE"). I'm only about half way through PERFORMANCE but finding it's well worth the read. It takes a very different approach to explaining things from THE ART AND SCIENCE OF LOW CARBOHYDRATE LIVING ("LIVING") - in some ways much clearer and more direct. Definitely targets the specific 'how do I..? and "what if...?" questions of "athletes" (a category into which, for this purpose, all of us here fall, as compared to the general population!)

For those who have been skimming LIVING and finding (expecting?) that the science is going over their heads, so posting questions here...  go back and try to understand as much of the science as you can, because getting answers firsthand is always more accurate and reliable than putting it out there to people who, just like you, haven't got a 100% handle on it themselves*. And a lot of the answers are there in the book(s).

On second thought, if you're struggling with the explanations in LIVING, it might be worthwhile putting that aside for now and reading PERFORMANCE to see if that book gives you enough understanding of the hows and whys to enable you to give the regime a fair trial.

*My background is in the law, not science, so I say this in full acknowledgement that a LOT of the science is way over my head, too! :p
Rebecca

2013 custom Enigma Etape
2010 Surly Cross Check
1978 Puch Princess mixte
2012 bespoke Brompton S8L

velovoice.blogspot.co.uk/
@velovoice

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #193 on: 07 April, 2013, 08:32:09 pm »
The 'Paleo for Athletes' book says that you should eat Paleo except immediately before, during and after exercise when it's ok to eat carbs.

The Paleo principles are very different to Volek & Phinney, who came to their book having reached the conclusion from multiple studies that some people simply do not tolerate carbohydrates, in much the same way as some people are lactose intolerant, glucose intolerant, etc.  For people who are carbohydrate intolerant (and studies strongly suggest that's a significant part of the population, even some athletes), allowing themselves more carbs at any particular time, e.g. before, during and/or after strenuous exercise, is not only unnecessary but counter-productive, indeed potentially harmful.

As for keto-adaptation, this is not the same as being 'in ketosis' (measurable as Chris described above).  Keto-adaptation takes at least (i.e. minimum) of 2 weeks and refers to a complete readjustment to how organs of the body work, including but not limited to fuel partitioning. One of the key things here is the fuel your brain runs on - which (not glycogen depletion) is at the crux of whether and when and how you might "bonk".  In fact, the second book on PERFORMANCE is all about exactly that: avoiding The Bonk.  :thumbsup:
Rebecca

2013 custom Enigma Etape
2010 Surly Cross Check
1978 Puch Princess mixte
2012 bespoke Brompton S8L

velovoice.blogspot.co.uk/
@velovoice

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #194 on: 07 April, 2013, 09:24:06 pm »
Pros:
Steady energy flow all day.
No need for bonk rations on audaxes. In fact, food for fuel is a complete non-issue on rides.
Improved appetite management: An end to feeling at the mercy of food.
Currently, I can forget about food for hours at a time. I can eat only at mealtimes and be fine with that, whatever I'm doing. Keeping under 2,000 calories eaten is easy. I eat breakfast, or not. I can skip breakfast, lunch, or tea, if I'm not hungry, and sometimes I'm not hungry  :o. There's no compensatory eating later if I do eat less at a meal.
+1

I generally eat more protein than is recommended and this is probably a contributory factor to the lack-of-weightloss, but I can't bring myself to eat cream or butter rather than cheese. The bodybuilders reckon you need more protein if you're to build muscle and lose fat, and I'd rather do that than not. :shrug:
I also have the slowest metabolism in the world- me & the Galapogas Giant Tortoises, and I'm starting to wonder if there's anything I could do to attain the weightloss that should be theoretically possible given the calories in/calories out I process.
I'll be sticking to it for the foreseeable. Doing without cake, biscuits and bread is much easier than you think it'll be. And alcohol hasn't been a regular feature of my diet for years, so I barely notice that's gone.
I hear you. My experience though is that FAT is the key to success. Avoiding things like cream and butter may be closing a door that, if open, could kick-start and maintain your weight loss?

So. My personal experience with this.

November 2012 onwards is the third sustained period of low-carb eating that I've done in the past 15 years. Every time, my debilitating (and I do mean debilitating) IBS symptoms just melt away.

The first time (1999-2000), I went from 11.5 stone to 9.5 stone with absolutely no exercise - I was working full time and studying for a degree and had no time for or interest in doing anything that might involve sweating (eeugh!). Then I got married... to a controlling sort of man who was a body builder... and I decided to "learn to cook". In 6 months I put all the weight back on and was a complete mess.

The second time (2009-2010, I was a cycling fool and did lose weight (from 12.5 stone to about 11) but I wasn't really serious about eating low-carb for the long term. 

The third time (as Adam said, from last November) followed 6 months of absolute IBS HELL. I was desperate to stop it. Had all sorts of hospital tests done. Tried a number of different pills and special diets. In the end though, I knew from experience that low carb had worked in the past -- not just helped, but stopped it dead -- so, in the face of my GP's initial protestations, I decided to go back to low carb eating. 

It had been so long since I'd read anything properly serious about low carb diets, I decided to go back to basics. I read the last edition of Atkins' New Diet Revolution, which was written after Dr Atkins' death by a team of 3 doctors, 2 of whom were Volek & Phinney. I noticed a definite shift in emphasis on a number of key principles from the 1999 edition of that book, so I set off on some Internet searching that quickly led to Volek & Phinney's LIVING book. Worth mentioning that by this time I had already been on a low carb diet for several weeks and feeling much better but was starting to wonder how this was going to work (what to eat? how much? when?) once I started up again with long rides in the spring.  LIVING gave me a pretty good inkling of what the answer might be -- and PERFORMANCE confirmed it. It's all, as someone said up-thread, remarkably simple. And much EASIER to do than all the carb loading and glycogen-depletion-avoidance techniques as per "accepted wisdom".

I have to say, I don't feel "full of beans" as Chris describes. I do remember feeling that way the first time I was on the Atkins diet. On the other hand, I am now so much more active than I was then. And I've learned I can count on the energy I need being there when I need it. Every time I'm confronted with a need for extra/more energy, even at short notice (e.g. coming round a corner to be confronted with a bl**dy great mountain!), the energy I need is somehow there. I don't know if I've ever had a "top end"! But I am a much better climber this year than I was last year... a lot more power in  my legs and a lot less huffing and puffing. Having lost some weight will have helped that, but I know that it's my body's more efficient way of using fuel -- the right fuel -- that makes it happen.

Like fboab, there are foods I miss. I allow myself occasional very small portions of mash potato. And ice cream. I could miss fruit if I let myself but it *always* triggers an IBS symptom of one kind or another, to a greater or lesser degree, and the thought of that is enough to keep me honest!  The only food I get honest to God cravings for is chocolate but I've realised these are completely emotional cravings, not at all physical, so I have decided to avoid chocolate altogether. Completely teetotal. Best that way.

Hope this is of some help to someone.
Rebecca

2013 custom Enigma Etape
2010 Surly Cross Check
1978 Puch Princess mixte
2012 bespoke Brompton S8L

velovoice.blogspot.co.uk/
@velovoice

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #195 on: 07 April, 2013, 09:31:04 pm »
This blog post (from a scary looking guy with a Truck and a compound bow - clearly a Good 'Ol Boy) has some interesting stuff, that I think Vintagesteel was alluding to: Clickity.

First I've seen of that link.

He says up front that what he says is based on his own experience and opinion - he has no idea if medical studies/science would back him up. For that, I give him fair dues. But based on my experience (and opinions based on that), I disagree with most, if not all, of what he says! Not that I'm more right or less wrong -- but I'd prefer he directed his readers to some real science.
Rebecca

2013 custom Enigma Etape
2010 Surly Cross Check
1978 Puch Princess mixte
2012 bespoke Brompton S8L

velovoice.blogspot.co.uk/
@velovoice

hulver

  • I am a mole and I live in a hole.
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #196 on: 08 April, 2013, 01:21:55 pm »
I have an uneasy feeling that since the low carb proponents admit that "it doesn't work for everyone" I'm going to find once again that I'm in that category where nothing seems to work! (Or am I just being defeatist!?)
I think I'm in that category too, PP. We committed to this for 3 months and that's just about up, and having lost a bit in the first couple or three weeks, since then I've lost nothing, and my weight graphs give a really pretty pattern of water retention through the week:

The dips are pre-audax, not post.
I've been pretty demoralised about it, but, the big win for me is hunger management. Here we are post-audax, traditionally Teh Hunger Zone and I haven't eaten the entire contents of my shelves.
I've stopped counting calories/carbs/exercise as it was just making me miserable- whatever my supposed deficit it made/makes no difference on the scale. Bollocks to that.
I suppose I'm looking for a way of eating where my weight is managed without willpower, and unless I ride about 100k/day I don't think I'll ever find it. Willpower is a really bad way of doing anything; it's tiring and doomed to failure.
In the meantime, I'll stay at 85kg and eat whatever I fancy- as long as it doesn't have carbs- and at least I won't feel too deprived?

Don't get too demoralised. Look at the trend line on the yacf graphs, and yours is firmly pointing down.

http://www.simonproven.me.uk/yacf-weight-graphs/yacf-weights-BMI-graph.0.png

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #197 on: 08 April, 2013, 02:59:32 pm »

Don't get too demoralised. Look at the trend line on the yacf graphs, and yours is firmly pointing down.

http://www.simonproven.me.uk/yacf-weight-graphs/yacf-weights-BMI-graph.0.png
I was losing weight before Christmas, and in January but not in Feb & March. My graphs have more data points than Simon's, so it's more obvious that the trend is only because of Dec & Jan. I appear to be losing again now, but we'll see.
This current weightloss can probably be attributed to coming off antidepressants, the doc said it would take 6 weeks to have any effect on my weight, and it is now 6 weeks.
Unfortunately I'm vile(r) and (more)intolerant and (even more) fucking miserable so will probably have to go back on them. Chris isn't that devoted.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #198 on: 08 April, 2013, 03:32:56 pm »
The ironic thing about your diet is that it is close (ignoring the red meat bit) to what I was recommended to eat by a dietitian, 17 years ago.

I was ill, IBS, struggling to keep weight on (I struggled to keep my weight above 62kg, which is 11kg lower than my weight now). Dietitian recommended as much butter, cream, protein as I could stomach. Cream with some fruit and nuts for breakfast. Slabs of cheese and butter.  etc.

It did sort of work - my weight settled just about 70kg and stabilized, no matter how much exercise I did.

The saturated fats have had to go, due to suddenly raised cholesterol levels. I have to say, I'm a bit struggling to eat and stay 'full'.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

hulver

  • I am a mole and I live in a hole.
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #199 on: 15 April, 2013, 02:01:34 pm »
My fiancée has joined me in this diet, and is starting to wish she'd waited. She's lost so much weight that the wedding dress she was fitted for no longer fits, and needed to be adjusted again.

She's had to introduce some carbs back into her diet again to try and maintain her current weight, so that the dress will still fit in 3 weeks time.

And she's hating being back on the carbs again. She feels so hungry, it was something that had gone away while on the keto diet, and wasn't missed.

She'll be back on it again as soon as the Wedding is over :)