Author Topic: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?  (Read 201163 times)

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #275 on: 27 August, 2014, 03:05:52 pm »
I like the irony of climbing the Alps to eat coconuts.  ;D









(yes, I realise it's eating coconuts to climb Alps and it's not actually coconuts, but still I like it)
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #276 on: 28 August, 2014, 01:53:33 pm »
Boab breakfast:

Diet whey protein powder+ full fat milk + hot water + coconut oil.

Much better than shreddies for staving off hunger in the morning.

Satiety from fat is massive.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Chris S

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #278 on: 04 September, 2014, 10:12:36 am »
Oh - that's a first! A blood ketone level higher than my blood glucose!

BG: 4.3mmol/l
K: 4.7mmol/l

When fasting coincides with bike rides  :thumbsup:.

Thing is - I had bags of energy riding this morning, and feel great! Ketones FTW!

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #279 on: 04 September, 2014, 01:03:04 pm »
The most valuable piece of equipment in a Viking village was the butter churn.

On a longship, each member of the crew would have a barrel of butter. There would be a few fishing lines over the side all the time.

Buttered Herring??

If it was the case that there were no fish, the crew and men would just eat their butter ration.
When they reached Northumbria, the locals had no defence against the strength of the Vikings.

What happened to the descendants of the Vikings?
They won lots of gold medals at the 2012 Olympics.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #280 on: 04 September, 2014, 01:08:10 pm »
Boab breakfast:

Diet whey protein powder+ full fat milk + hot water + coconut oil.

Much better than shreddies for staving off hunger in the morning.

Satiety from fat is massive.

On return home from school moaning "I'm hungry", mum gave me a spoonfull of butter. That sorted the hunger.  :thumbsup:

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #281 on: 04 September, 2014, 01:26:04 pm »
When they reached Northumbria, the locals had no defence against the strength of the Vikings.
Stamford bridge
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Tail End Charlie

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #282 on: 04 September, 2014, 04:22:56 pm »
Chelsea 1, Vikings 0.

Bianchi Boy

  • Cycling is my doctor
  • Is it possible for a ride to be too long?
    • Reading Cycling Club
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #283 on: 04 September, 2014, 10:11:20 pm »
This thread is interesting on a number of levels. Basically your body is very good at converting food into energy, there is no magic to weight loss it is just to do with the number of calories you consume and the number you burn. The truth is that protein and fat take more time to digest and stop you feeling hungry so quickly, so you eat less. This is why people lose weight on these high protein high fat diets. Ever wondered why you feel hungry about 1 hour after eating a Chinese meal? Well white rice is easy to digest and once it is gone, you want more.

The other interesting and little understood area is how to measure the number of calories you consume. See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1454084 for some scientific stuff on this. But basically fat people under report their calories and over report exercise. I do not think this is restricted to people who appear to be too short for their weight - we all do it.

My conclusion is that complex food containing protein and fat take more time to digest and you do not feel hungry so soon. If you feel better with this or loads of carbs then that is good. Understand our body and how you work, it may surprise you. My best rides have been done on pork pies - these have loads of calories and last for ages. Energy bars on the other hand last for about 30 minutes and then you have to eat another one.

BB
Set a fire for a man and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

Jakob

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #284 on: 05 September, 2014, 12:18:06 am »

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #285 on: 16 December, 2014, 06:51:54 pm »
Here is a post I made on an Irish cycling forum during the summer.

I'm probably a bit different to the guys with keto diets in that I wasn't purposely trying to enter nutritional ketosis and certainly wasn't measuring it, I did rely very heavily on fat in diet (typically  65:20:15) my emphasis was on using fat for energy i.e. by adapting training to chose body fat as primary source of energy.

This training is essentially fasted morning cycles up to 140km with a lumpy route and 100km ish when very hilly(the roughest being a 100km Gran Canaria spin which included VOTT) and intermittent fasting on non training days also.

My problem with keto is it is very awkward socially.

Anyway my post is below for any other lunantics out there who cycle ;D

Just said I'd detail my experiences with long distance cycling and nutrition, which have been a hand in hand experiment over the past 10 months or so. One of the main reasons for thread is the very regularl new threads here where lads(probably like I would have been a few years ago) asking what is the best thing to eat for cycling.

To start I have no background in cycling. On greatly reducing my field sports activity at 30, bought a bike in 2006 and did a few few sportives, Wicklow 200, ROK, SKT etc. Continued this until 2012 with limited field sports and some cycling, maybe 2-3k per year.

This increased in 2013 with a nice bit on mtb and approximately 8k on road bike, and with it an interest in fueling it.

When starting on bike, like everyone else I was confronted with the advice of using gels, bars, sports drinks etc, however for most part I ignored them and just fueled myself using normal food.

Having come across the HFLC threads in the training log forum I decided to give it ( a very sceptical) go for 12 months and it coincided with a decision to give audax riding a go also.

Although I had never struggled with weight, fueling myself with fat instead of carbs raised my curiosity, as it wasn't something I had thought of before.

The diet was quite simple, I just cut pasta, bread potatoes and rice. Fruit and veg stayed in varying quantities(always collective very large) and the diet staples in order of quantity are; eggs, nuts, olive oil, coconut oil, greek yoghurt, olives, cheese, red meat(mainly Irish beef and mountain lamb), chicken(minus breast meat), fish, butter, cream, dark chocolate. I eat a huge variety of veg.

On bike I've been fairly busy with over 7k clocked for year, but I'm unlikely to have time for this as year progresses. What can I do now that I couldn't do before on a higher carb diet
* cycle in a fasted state; have done up to 140km before breakfast
* with breakfast can cycle easily to 180km ish. Got to Fethard last Saturday on MF1200, and only ate as unsure as to where next opportunity would be
* I've never come near bonking.
* My total food for day was; fatty breakfast at 5am, on bike at 8am, 185km bowl of soup with cream and butter. I cycled a further 225km and in that time I ate 2 apples, greek yoghurt, olives, various nuts(200g) and a bananna.(speed according to strava was 25.6km/h)

It should be borne in mind, my typical pace depending on distance, elevation etc but is normally in 24km/h-30kmh range, so I'm not fast.

The biggest advantage of diet is avoiding, digestion trouble encountered with big meals on long rides. I need very little. I believe( and maybe completely wrong) diet is most suited to ultra endurance type events, rather than racing.
Although having said that I've never felt as healthy or strong.

I'm not advocating this for anyone just pointing out what is possible for an average athlete with very little adaptation.

For help with HFLC try optimumnutrition4sport
For someone who thinks it's bo11ox to cycle and eat HFLC try anthonycolpo.com. Interesting, intelligent and a little annoying all in one

There are loads more out there.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #286 on: 17 December, 2014, 12:06:43 pm »
The most valuable piece of equipment in a Viking village was the butter churn.

On a longship, each member of the crew would have a barrel of butter. There would be a few fishing lines over the side all the time.

Buttered Herring??

If it was the case that there were no fish, the crew and men would just eat their butter ration.
When they reached Northumbria, the locals had no defence against the strength of the Vikings.

What happened to the descendants of the Vikings?
They won lots of gold medals at the 2012 Olympics.

Are you suggesting that the alleged benefits from eating butter have been engraved in the Viking's DNA, and transmitted to their descendants?

Chris S

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #287 on: 18 December, 2014, 11:07:44 am »
More interesting stuff:

http://www.ultrarunning.com/features/health-and-nutrition/the-emerging-science-on-fat-adaptation/

I wonder how transferable any research involving ultra-runners might be for ultra-cyclists. I find cycling much much easier than running; at pretty much any level.

But the ability to run/ride an endurance event on minimal intake would be really handy for those who get gut upsets when exercising and can't eat well.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #288 on: 05 January, 2015, 10:16:09 pm »
I've decided to give this a go. Mrs Sloth is convinced and has been for some time. She's quit 20 years of vegetarianism* to make a go of it .
*she did eat fish.

I was very sceptical (the cause of many heated domestic debates), but I've seen that Tim Noakes is preaching the word. I've got a lot of respect for him and if he says it's so, it is (hopefully).
I watched Cereal Killers. It's well worth a look.
It shouldn't been too hard to adjust my meals to fit with this as Mrs Sloth controls all household food purchases and productions.
Struggling to get my head around consuming this type of food on long rides.
I have a formula for food on the bike which I feel works for me and I'm loath to tamper with it. Glad to find this thread and read about Chris S and fboab's experiences on audax

There's a follow up movie Run on Fat soon to be released which looks interesting.

Chris S

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #289 on: 06 January, 2015, 11:24:40 am »
Hope it works out for you both!

I'm on Day 4 of <50g carbs a day, so I'm at the peeing like a horse stage as I dump water - I've lost 2Kg since Saturday! Important time to keep the electrolytes and water coming (couple of cups of broth a day really helps) to avoid Lo-carb Flu.

I had been planning to start 5x5 Stronglifts - but I might give this a miss for a couple of weeks, just until I settle back into it.

RichForrest

  • T'is I, Silverback.
    • Ramblings of a silverback cyclist
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #290 on: 06 January, 2015, 12:09:25 pm »
There are quite a few powerlifters/bodybuilders that are on keto diets, Mark Bell is one and he's one huge strong guy!!

Chris S

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #291 on: 06 January, 2015, 12:19:11 pm »
There are quite a few powerlifters/bodybuilders that are on keto diets, Mark Bell is one and he's one huge strong guy!!

It's definitely doable - but you have to get it right, otherwise you can end up in the worst of both worlds - no glycogen and inability to lift because you haven't adapted to burning fat at much higher work intensities.

I'm pretty sure I'd fail early at lifting right now - I'm getting a lot of postural hypotension which is common in the early days of switching to minimal carbs; I'd hate to keel over half way through a squat!

Cycling Daddy

  • "We shall have an adventure by and by," said Don Q
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #292 on: 31 January, 2015, 04:17:39 pm »
Train low race high: best of both worlds??

I am looking at my diet and in particular nutrition on longer (say more than 400K) rides.  Wondered if something like this http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/sports-nutrition-the-latest-research-into-low-glycogen-training-42067 was a)effective and b) aceivable??
Too much sanity may be madness. And maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Chris S

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #293 on: 05 February, 2015, 12:26:05 pm »
Train low, race high is effectively what fboab and I ended up doing in our points-chasing audax year (2013) - the first year we "did" a low carb/high fat ketogenic diet.

We did a lot of fasted riding early in the year, by working our way up to being able to ride 100km before breakfast, and easily ride 80km segments without any supplemental food. The combination of that, and already having very very low carbohydrate intake most days (<50g, usually <30g) meant we became adept fat-burners.

But - a keto diet is really really inconvenient. Find yourself in a Costa on a freezing cold, sleety ride? There won't be ANYTHING you can eat there - it's ALL carbs. That's not so bad for a 200 where you can carry Babybels and nuts, but this inconvenience becomes a real PITA for longer events - especially multi-day events (>400km). Plus - on rides with full TLC - we resent not being able to eat the food we paid for!

So on rides, we completely relaxed our regime; we'd eat what was on offer, and we'd not be restricted in what we ate at commercial controls. Ice cream for breakfast on a hot 400? Bring it on!! When you're exercising (and have some training behind you), you become much more insulin sensitive, and can handle more in the way of refined carbs. It still shuts down fat metabolism when you eat it - and you'll be burning carbs while they're available, but your underlying fat-burning training will always stand you in good stead once that sugar has burned off.
The upshot of all this was we had absolutely no food issues when it came to the longer rides, including LEL; we ate "normally" - which for us was much higher carb than usual; we had the benefit of well-tuned fat metabolism, but could handle more in the way of sweet stuff on the longer rides - which does indeed sound like the best of both worlds!

Blodwyn Pig

  • what a nice chap
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #294 on: 11 February, 2015, 05:20:00 pm »
well , i've bin reading a bit, an' thinking a bit. And 'sort of ' trying this out. I've always believed in this sort of thing really. two reasons'
A) My dad was always overweight, (no lets be honest, he was huge, bless him) and the doctor told him,....  30 + years ago, to CUT OUT BREAD AND POTATOES, but of course he didn't.

B) years ago I was seriously into lifting weights, you know , arms bigger than neck, stuff, and i read a section of a book on diet. Basically it said that if you have a milky cereal breaky, it lines the stomach, and prevents it from accessing the body fats that lie beyond. The suggested breaky was a couple of rashers of grilled bacon, one or two poached eggs, on a slice of dry toast. I tried it,and felt so much more alert, and energetic. This was prob 25 years ago. lately I've taken to gorging myself on porridge for breaky, and felt so blinkin stodgy.
But now I've tried this Ketogen thing for 5 days,  no bread, but fatty stuff, meat, veg, cheese dairy, fruit etc. Basically if its natural carbs , ie pots, I''ll have a couple, but pasta, white rice , bread, NO!   

I honestly feel like i'm on speed at the mo, Not fast on the bike, but strong, low down grunt, stuff i've been lacking in for ages. I'm alert, came back after a fasted 75km  and shower, then some breaky, But quite amazingly I've gone down from 97kg to 94.9kg in a little over a week, but with bags on energy.  So my view at the mo, is yes , its working , if its natural carbs, then eat a little. When I'm riding, I feel like I have a little fire in my stomach, not hunger, but a tiny fuel burning furnace, and it feels good.

Right now I've got an overpowering urge to eat a large doner kebap and salad, all that fatty lamb.. :-*

oooo, talking of food, ooh have I  a little post ride lunch time gem for you.  2 egg omelette, with cheese, and BLUE cheese, and TUNA, and season with salt and pepper and TOBASCO, then fold over and let melt, served with grated carrot and salad.  Oh the thought of it makes me want to go and cook one, hmm, doner kebap, or omelette.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #295 on: 13 February, 2015, 11:07:11 pm »
A month and a half in for me and here's how it's gone/going (all in, no cheating):

The first couple of days were tough: hungry & low energy. Manageable during normal operations, but not on the bike.
It felt like someone had taken my batteries out. I normally smash my 2x20km commute, I now felt as if I would not be able to make it home. Body weight plummeted alarmingly. 3kg in about 3 days. (I'm pretty sure now that most of that was fluid loss).

Two weeks in and it all felt normal. Better than normal in fact. Energy levels more or less constant throughout the day. No post lunch dozies, no cravings for sweet stuff. Weight has dropped from 88kg to 82kg. On the bike I felt like I lost my top end power. This was evident in my inability to perform well at SCR. It's hard to be completely objective during winter, but I feel like my form is returning.
Two weeks in I road the Willy Warmer 200. It went really well. I was able to maintain a good pace and felt nice constant energy levels throughout. No lows, no bonk. I fuelled on almonds, cheese and droewors (which I've read is the next best thing to pemmican). I didn't really feel the need to eat my rations, but did so out of principle.

My plan was to give it a go for a month and re-evaluate. I'm happy with it thus far and plan to continue.
I need to do a few more long rides and some TT's to really understand it's impact on my performance.
I miss certain foods (chocolate, beer, pasta, etc), but the desire is more academic than a hard craving. As Chris S mentioned it's not that easy to find fat when out and about. You become acutely aware that we live in a carb world and rather than "contains added fat", you're likely to encounter "low fat" or "fat free".
For audax I've always tried to carry as much of my own victuals as possible, rather than relying on control food. This may become a necessity, one difficult to achieve for something like PBP.
I've been using Ketostix to monitor and I'm somewhere between 1.5 & 4 mmol/L. There is probably scope for me to lower my daily carb intake a bit more. I've also not yet tried any of the more extreme tactics: fast or fast & ride.
The only negative to report is the odd dizzy spell when I stand up after a bit of inactivity (blood pressure? lack of salt?)

Well worth watching: Jeff Volek: The Many Facets of Keto-Adaptation: Health, Performance, and Beyond

...and something to help with the chocolate cravings: Healthy Fats Choc Pot Recipe

Chris S

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #296 on: 14 February, 2015, 01:43:21 pm »
The only negative to report is the odd dizzy spell when I stand up after a bit of inactivity (blood pressure? lack of salt?)

Yeah. Couple of cups of broth a day should fix that. Don't skimp on salt on your food - as you've discovered, your blood pressure before you stand up suddenly is probably already lower than it was, so worries about too much salt should be put to one side. Eat lots of spinach and other potassium rich greens (kale is good if you can stomach it - I'm not a fan), and if you already take a Vitamin C supplement, try Magnesium Ascorbate instead as a means of getting some additional Magnesium - this helps a lot if you're getting troubled with cramps or twitchy muscles.

Glad it's going well so far; expect full adaptation to take three months, so you're about half way  :thumbsup:.

There are some low-carb chocolate fixes out there in the wilds of the internet; look up  "One minute chocolate muffin" for example. Also - a couple of squares of >= 75% dark chocolate is OK as a treat.

simonp

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #297 on: 14 February, 2015, 01:53:04 pm »
I've been meaning to repeat the vo2max test I did several years ago. Our local gym does nothing like that. So I googled and found this in Bristol:

http://www.truezone.co.uk/Home.html

They also provide the fat/carb ratio analysis that ChrisS has mentioned several times. Would be interesting to see where I sit. My macros are typically 30-40% fat and around 40% carb so I'm not on a low fat diet.


Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #298 on: 15 February, 2015, 06:55:17 pm »
I did my first "fasted ride today":
No breakfast, out at 07:30. 125km, 5hrs riding time. No food on the bike. Just water and some 0cal hydration salts.
I felt good the whole way. I was able to push hard & sprint up hills without any energy drops.
This test has been the first confirmation that things are now very different (in a good way). Back in my porridge days I couldn't make it to the front door without breakfast. I would also need to feed constantly while on the move.

I've got to go to India for a week soon. I doubt it's going to be logistically possible for me to maintain my faddy eating regime whilst out there. If I partake of rice and beer (oh the horror) do you think I'll have a major set back on the adaptation path?

Chris S

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #299 on: 15 February, 2015, 08:22:25 pm »
If I partake of rice and beer (oh the horror) do you think I'll have a major set back on the adaptation path?

That's what all the books, blogs and how-tos say.

Some carbs can be tolerated without damaging your adaptation if you're exercising. Take a bike with you!