Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?

[jimmea]

Did my 1st 200k this weekend under my attampt at a low carb routine, dinner previous night was 2  good quality plain burgers (no bread) served with loads of veg, ride consisted of me having 2 sticks of pepperami and 3 babybel's, one pint of full fat milk and a handful of brazil nuts, this lasted me until 140k when the the guy's i was riding with had a cafe stop, didn't even feel hungry but opted to have some chicken fajita just to be sociable like. I felt incredibly strong on the bike with none of my previous signs of massive appetite and hunger, no cramps or bonk at all, so a big improvment for me ride wise but still lots to do as i spoiled it afterwards back at the hall where i had a pack of those Mr Porky pure pork cackling  and a can of soft drink  back on the regime today but must cut back on dairy as i'm eating and drinking to much of it.

[L CC]

Nothing wrong with eating lots of cheese. High fat/low carb delight. Full fat greek yoghurt? Bring it on. Double Cream? Yes please!
Lots of milk is only a problem if you're actually having pints of milk- make sure you're having full fat and less than 200ml a day- it's 4% lactose after all.

[Blodwyn Pig]

well, my weight is still dropping, waist is getting slimmer, trousers getting looser, havent had any bread in prob 4 weeks, had about 10 chips last night, with 1/2 a lge cod. baked beans and peas. Really fancy a lge doner kebap, with salad , yogurt and chilli sauce yes please, innit. Thing is , when do you stop, I mean we set a 'goal' but we don't know if this goal is the optimum weight, or just lighter than we are now, so we are chuffed.

[campagman]

You won't know your goal now but when your cycling performance deteriorates then you've lost too much.

[thesloth]

Cereal Killers II - Run on Fat is available to watch for free for a limited time:
https://gumroad.com/l/pioppirunsonfat

Use promo code: italy

[Chris S]

Cereal Killers II - Run on Fat is available to watch for free for a limited time:
https://gumroad.com/l/pioppirunsonfat

Use promo code: italy

And it's an excellent watch - whether you subscribe to the diet or not. Watch out for the CDC on Steve Phinney's mantelpiece, too  .

[Chinaski]

http://sigmanutrition.com/episode86/

Excellent discussion on metabolic flexibility

[Ningishzidda]

It’s well known in the medical world that it takes between seven and ten years to completely replace dead cells with new.
Brain cells last for life.

When a person completely changes lifestyle, physical demands and diet, it might take this long for the body to adapt completely to the new circumstances.

When it comes to cycling, a complete newbie who has previously not done any physical exercise will more than likely wreck their knees because they’re not robust enough for the new demands.
After seven years of a steadily increasing regime of activity, the person might then be able to mash up hills.
During those seven years, eat collagen rich foods, meats AND vegetables, which goes against a Ketogenic diet.

Mum knows best. “Eggs and beans on toast for tea.”

[Chris S]

During those seven years, eat collagen rich foods, meats AND vegetables, which goes against a Ketogenic diet.

Have to challenge you there. You can (and should) have plenty of vegetables on a Keto diet; all the above ground veggies are fine - best served with butter. And bacon  .

[Chinaski]

During those seven years, eat collagen rich foods, meats AND vegetables, which goes against a Ketogenic diet.

Have to challenge you there. You can (and should) have plenty of vegetables on a Keto diet; all the above ground veggies are fine - best served with butter. And bacon  .

Yep while my diet isn't ketogenic at moment, with too much fruit and no restriction on veg it is very high fat.

Most guy I know eating HFLC eat more veg than your average vegetarian. On a volume basis veg dominates the plate of anyone eating a well formulated HFLC diet.

Every so often I plug a few days eating into cronometer.com and there is never an issue with any micro nutrient. The saturated fat "bar" is a bit mental though 

Anyone here try ketone salts? I'd be wary of them even though they are available otc. They allow glycogen and ketones to co exist which seems to good to be true, which is a red flag for me

[chrisbainbridge]

Collagen rich diet?

Which type of collagen do you want to eat?
There is no point in eating collagen as it is completely digested before being taken into the blood stream and the only collagen which would be worthwhile is human collagen.  There are I believe just over 30 different collagens identified and only four or five in humans.

[mcshroom]

During those seven years, eat collagen rich foods, meats AND vegetables, which goes against a Ketogenic diet.

Have to challenge you there. You can (and should) have plenty of vegetables on a Keto diet; all the above ground veggies are fine - best served with butter. And bacon  .

Yep while my diet isn't ketogenic at moment, with too much fruit and no restriction on veg it is very high fat.

Most guy I know eating HFLC eat more veg than your average vegetarian. On a volume basis veg dominates the plate of anyone eating a well formulated HFLC diet.

I'm not following a keto-diet, but just a simpler calorie restriction one at the moment*. I'm finding I'm eating larger portions of veg and especially salads than I would have done normally, as often I end up replacing the more calorific carbohydrate section of the meal with more of these relatively low-calorie alternatives.

*MFP tracking everything and budgeting on the fly. I should really look at something more structured, especially not replacing all my exercize calories, but this has worked for the last month so not too bad

[Ningishzidda]

As I understand, the 'low calorie' alternative to CHO, is H2O.
 

[sojournermike]

As I understand, the 'low calorie' alternative to CHO, is H2O.
 

No, I think that's the driver's low cal alternative to C₂H₅OH

[ElyDave]

I've seen someone get very very ill on a ketosis-based diet. Going into ketosis is fine for a short period but not long-term.

It's a bad idea if you are diabetic or have a history of kidney problems. Also, it's easy to over-do the protein, which can stress the kidneys. My diet is based on 1.5g/Kg LBM of protein, so about 100g a day. A properly formulated low-carb, high-fat diet is pretty benign, and nutritious. It's meat/dairy/fish + salads and veg.

I was diagnosed T1 2.5 years go and have started researching this in some depth.

There's a hell of a difference between nutritional ketosis and the very nasty diabetic ketoacidosis which is life threatening.

The first is achieved by reduction in carb intake (and associated insulin administration in my case), with the majority of calories from fat, protein is moderate.

the second is brought about by insufficient insulin to deal with the continuing carb intake, and I was in that situation prior to diagnosis. With a lack of any circulating insulin my body started to cannibalise itself for energy and after using my fat reserves went on to start on the muscles and I lost over 10% of my bodyweight in the space of a few weeks.  My ketones at diagnosis were >3mmol/l and Blood Glucose (BG) >25mmol/l

as a well controlled T1, in nutritional ketosis, my fasting BG is now around 5.0 (i.e. normal) and my ketones measured yesterday were 1.4

 

[Chinaski]

http://www.scienceofultra.com/podcasts/

Good podcast on fat adaptation from a well informed, experienced and qualified lady.

[chrisbainbridge]

Sorry for what is going to be a longish post.

We have gradually been reducing carbohydrate as my wife went gluten free 2 years ago and so we have no bread in the house.  We did use to eat rice, potatoes, etc but always kept the skin on and brown rice generally although risotto was one of our favourites.  I have slowly become more convinced that unprocessed real food is the way to go and so was switching back to full fat versions.

We tried Atkins 10 years ago and I lost weight but my wife didn't probably because she was not exercising. We have done the 5:2 and that did work for both of us to a degree.  I have a slightly more settled job so could set specific days whereas my wife has a very varied job so some weeks could not manage.

I have been doing my commute fasted for a couple of years and can now generally do a 100km ride fasted at 25km/hr.

This year I decided to fully keto adapt partly to pull my wife along but mainly for the greater endurance on long distance riding.

So One week ago was the start day.  On the Thursday night I ate all the chocolate in the house (5 crunchies), the freezer was already full of low carb soups for lunches and the fridge was stocked with cream and butter.

Friday evening came home from work and my wife had not been well and I felt very ill.  I spent the next 36 hours in bed and decided this was real flu not atkins flu.  I continued with the diet though and have been below 50g of carbohydrate every day but one this week. My monitor arrived and blood ketone was 0.6. So success. Although total daily calorie intake has been low at 1000-1500 per day.

Yesterday however was awful!!  In the afternoon I suddenly started shivering uncontrollably as if I was running a raging temperature.  Was this the flu again or hypoglycaemia?  I took 2 paracetamol and 1/2teaspoon of sugar in a coffee and it all settled.  Then again in the middle of the night the same thing.  After 30 minutes of uncontrollable shivering I got up and forced myself to take 2 paracetamol and some raspberries. Within a few minutes everything settled again.

Was this hypoglycaemia? Sepsis? The flu?

I do not know.  Unfortunately I did not buy the glucose strips as I never expected this to happen.

Possibly, the afternoon was an insulin spike after lunch which probably had over 50% of my daily carbs which then pushed me into hypoglycaemia.  The night time, I don't know.

I may get the glucose strips in case it happens again. 

( As an aside, it does get easier to stick needles into oneself)

Now on Friday morning I

[Chris S]

Drink broth, boullion or some form of stock. Couple of times a day if you're really suffering - and it sounds like you are!

Are you getting postural hypotension - ie, feeling faint when you stand up quickly? That's the biggest clue I get that I need to up the salt intake, or get some broth in me.

Switching over to full-keto causes your electrolytes to go out of whack - kidneys work very differently on very low carb, apparently. You'll adapt eventually - carb flu generally doesn't last long, and getting more salt helps a lot.

[chrisbainbridge]

Thanks Chris.  I have not really had the hypotension thing.  I have eaten significantly more today to make sure that I don't under eat and have added salt to everything!

I will keep you all informed.  If this gives me the ability to ride continuously for 400km with only pepperoni and Babble then that will be a win!

[ElyDave]

I'm measuring ketones about once a week at the moment, consistently 1.5-2mmol/l

carbs <50g/day.

Weight has gone up by about 1.5kg, but I've also changed my exercise regime to include more strength work and less running, so not sure if that's anything to do with it.

No bread since the 2nd week in November.

[Chris S]

I thought it was just your wee'un rockin' the Ketones!

Well - presumably you get your test strips on prescription - which considering how much I've been known to pay for them, is most definitely a Good Thing! 

I'm not really monitoring this time around - I know what works, so I'm just doing it. Besides - I can tell by feel. There's an almost manic level of focus and clarity of thought that appears when your brain finally remembers how to burn ketones; it's almost a legal high  .

[chrisbainbridge]

This morning I felt really good and clear headed.  Leg muscles a little wobbly on the way to work but not ill.  I made sure I had a much bigger breakfast and much bigger lunch.  So no problems until about 17:30 when the body started to feel shivery and less happy. 

• too little sodium
• 2 little sugar
• flu bug back.

Lets do a little experiment.  First of all take my temperature.  If I am fit and well then I should not get severe shivering unless my core temperature is climbing seriously.  Ear temp 36.5^o so that pretty much rules out sepsis.

Then 1 teaspoon of honey and some strawberry mousse (home made with sugar free jelly but full cream carnation and lots of strawberries) and within 10 minutes I am beginning to feel much better.I am still well below my carbs limit for today so I think a big milky drink at night time should do the trick and I may even take some dextrose tablets to bed with me!

It has been a very interesting experiment so far and whilst as a surgeon I let other people deal with hypoglycaemia, I will have more insight, certainly scary and not nice.  My wife was particularly scared as she saw a slightly delusional confused rather ill husband last night who argued that nothing was wrong and wouldn't let the doctor be called!  Of course as the medic in the house anything I says goes absolutely with illness.

OK thanks for listening and reading.  I hope this will help somebody else

[chrisbainbridge]

so after the sugar felt better but not perfect so had half a stockpot and now feel very warm!!

[ElyDave]

I'm assuming you're not T1D? Or insulin resistant? If that was the case, could a reduction in that resistance be causing the hypoglycemia?

One other trick that we can use as T1s is to throw in a little sprint here and there to stimulate the liver to dump its stored glycogen's, you could give that a bash as well depending on circumstances.

An interval session on the rower this evening for example, pre exercise BG was 4.4, which would be too low to start aerobic exercise, but after the session it was 5.8. No carbs taken.

[Chris S]

so after the sugar felt better but not perfect so had half a stockpot and now feel very warm!!

Is that a Knorr stockpot? Only small amounts, so probably not a problem, but some form of sugar appears in the ingredients list four times (Glucose Syrup, Sugar, Caramel Syrup, Maltodextrin) !

There's a thread on insidious sugar in processed foods somewhere here...