Author Topic: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?  (Read 198249 times)

LMT

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #400 on: 22 February, 2016, 10:48:34 pm »
Fad

Look at the blood values of those that are on this diet - high in cholesterol and saturated fat.

We are not designed to eat meat/dairy products, compare the bio-chemistry of those that are born carnivores with human beings. Their system is acidic and they can metabolise dietary cholesterol, we cannot.

Carbs are not the enemy - carbs high in fat are.

Ketosis is not a healthy state to be in, the vast majority of people I've seen need stimulants to help them through their day as they cannot function, the body is designed for glucose consumption. Don't confuse weight loss with your body dumping a shit load of water because you are not taking on carbs which need water in order to metabolise (roughly 3g to every 1g of carbs)

Look at those that advocate this piece of shit diet that rapes the natural world, contributes to global warming, world hunger and results in a billion + animals needlessly being killed a year. We grow enough grain to feed 10+ billion people yet half of this is given to livestock, which we then kill and eat - nice one.

Prof Tim Noakes - diabetic
Dr Loren  Cordain - Fat, looks ill.
Jimmy Moore - Fat, blood values are shocking.
Mark Sisson - Heart Attack

What a load of unscientific rubbish.  Humans have only been cultivating crops since about 7,000 BC, so our digestive systems haven't had nearly enough time to evolve to deal with such a diet properly.  Bearing in mind the body can only store a very limited amount of glycogen, it's clearly not evolved to handle glucose or any form of sugar properly.  Ketosis is a perfectly normal and natural state to be in, and is what humans survived on for hundreds of thousands of years.

About the only vaguely accurate thing you've stated is about feeding grain to fatten animals.  However if someone wants to be a vegetarian in ketosis, it's perfectly possible.

I'd be far more concerned about the waste of resources in producing High Fructose Corn Syrup.

Suggest you do some more reading Adam, the China study for one.


simonp

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #401 on: 22 February, 2016, 11:01:34 pm »
It's certainly unscientific to believe that humans have only been consuming grains for 7,000 years. Evidence goes back as far as at least 100,000 years ago (and even before that was discovered, 23,000 years).

It's also unscientific to believe that humans aren't adapted to consuming carbohydrates. Or did we end up with 3x the copies of the AMY1 gene as the chimpanzee by accident?

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #402 on: 22 February, 2016, 11:05:35 pm »
I am not going to argue with you about the meat, but actually our protein is decreasing as we eat the diet.  as you become less hungry you naturally eat less and that specifically includes protein which can lead to gluconeogenesis.

Your comment about ketosis being unnatural and most people needing stimulants is just wrong and is the exact opposite of the reality.

My understanding is that Tim noakes was either pre diabetic or type 2 diabetic and has now reversed that with his diet.

You need to read a bit more about cholesterol.  Cholesterol is not 'bad', it is the ratio of LDL and HDL.  This normalises on LCHF diet.

Anyway we will have to agree to differ on this one.

Eating less meat still contributes to the undue suffering of a billion + animals every year. 'Eating less meat' with all due respect is some half measure bullshit.

Ketosis is an unhealthy state to be in, why you would think otherwise I'm not quite sure. I'll state my point again, the body, i.e the trillion + cells run on glucose - not fat. So why an earth would you want to substitute giving your body whole foods carbs (which it desires) in exchange for fat.

Choloresterol is not bad?!?!  :facepalm:

And I don't see how Noakes can reverse this, when it has been proven with medical science that meat has the same insulin load as eating pure glucose.

And we won't agree to disagree at all. Your ignorance regarding what is essentially the atkins diet reworked is contributing to climate change, world hunger, and the unnecessary killing of animals.

You crack on though and be your like your 'hunter gatherer' ancestors hunting meat - as you drive down the local supermarket to buy some more animals products.

Question:

When was the last time you actually hunted for meat, are have you just been suckered/socially engineered in to an utterly bullshit fad diet?

Because a lchf diet, not high protein has been clinically shown to improve glycaemic control and reduce complications in type 1 diabetics.

Or do you also object to coconut oil in my coffee and rapeseed or olive oil on my salads?
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

LMT

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #403 on: 22 February, 2016, 11:17:42 pm »
I am not going to argue with you about the meat, but actually our protein is decreasing as we eat the diet.  as you become less hungry you naturally eat less and that specifically includes protein which can lead to gluconeogenesis.

Your comment about ketosis being unnatural and most people needing stimulants is just wrong and is the exact opposite of the reality.

My understanding is that Tim noakes was either pre diabetic or type 2 diabetic and has now reversed that with his diet.

You need to read a bit more about cholesterol.  Cholesterol is not 'bad', it is the ratio of LDL and HDL.  This normalises on LCHF diet.

Anyway we will have to agree to differ on this one.

Eating less meat still contributes to the undue suffering of a billion + animals every year. 'Eating less meat' with all due respect is some half measure bullshit.

Ketosis is an unhealthy state to be in, why you would think otherwise I'm not quite sure. I'll state my point again, the body, i.e the trillion + cells run on glucose - not fat. So why an earth would you want to substitute giving your body whole foods carbs (which it desires) in exchange for fat.

Choloresterol is not bad?!?!  :facepalm:

And I don't see how Noakes can reverse this, when it has been proven with medical science that meat has the same insulin load as eating pure glucose.

And we won't agree to disagree at all. Your ignorance regarding what is essentially the atkins diet reworked is contributing to climate change, world hunger, and the unnecessary killing of animals.

You crack on though and be your like your 'hunter gatherer' ancestors hunting meat - as you drive down the local supermarket to buy some more animals products.

Question:

When was the last time you actually hunted for meat, are have you just been suckered/socially engineered in to an utterly bullshit fad diet?

Because a lchf diet, not high protein has been clinically shown to improve glycaemic control and reduce complications in type 1 diabetics.

Or do you also object to coconut oil in my coffee and rapeseed or olive oil on my salads?

It's been proven that the fat in animal products is what contributes to insulin resistance.

No surprise that you need coffee to get you through your day.

Hardly surprising that you have not addressed any of the other points that I made.

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #404 on: 23 February, 2016, 06:56:57 am »
I don't have insulin resistance, I have one of the lowest insulin doses I know of per g of carb ingested.

You are showing your ignorance here by conflating Type 2 where insulin resistance is a feature with Type 1 which is auto immune and essentially is zero or very little endogenous insulin production.

As for the rest of your post, that is entirely highly opiniated and intended to insult.   Again, show me a scientific study that shows better clinical outcomes for TYPE 1 diabetics on a hight refined carbohydrate diet. 

Please explain to me why you think you should be allowed to condemn me to a higher risk of diabetic complications due to your moral stance?
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #405 on: 23 February, 2016, 07:05:58 am »
I think it is clear LMT is simply trolling for the sake of trolling.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #406 on: 23 February, 2016, 07:10:31 am »
Homo Sapiens Sapiens are omnivore. They'll eat anything they can find or catch.

Cooking helps, as our ancestors found.

LMT

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #407 on: 23 February, 2016, 12:03:59 pm »
I don't have insulin resistance, I have one of the lowest insulin doses I know of per g of carb ingested.

You are showing your ignorance here by conflating Type 2 where insulin resistance is a feature with Type 1 which is auto immune and essentially is zero or very little endogenous insulin production.

As for the rest of your post, that is entirely highly opiniated and intended to insult.   Again, show me a scientific study that shows better clinical outcomes for TYPE 1 diabetics on a hight refined carbohydrate diet. 

Please explain to me why you think you should be allowed to condemn me to a higher risk of diabetic complications due to your moral stance?

Go Vegan Brao

http://www.diabetesdailygrind.com/type1vegandiet/
http://www.forksoverknives.com/type-1-diabetes-vegan-diet/
http://www.pcrm.org/health/health-topics/diet-and-diabetes-recipes-for-success

LMT

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #408 on: 23 February, 2016, 12:07:36 pm »
I think it is clear LMT is simply trolling for the sake of trolling.

I don't believe I am.

Reinforcing peoples bad eating habits has lead to a dramatic increase in heart disease, diabetes, cancers and osteoporosis.

Which incidentally can be higher in a ketone diet as the body leeches calcium out of the bones to make calcium phosphate to neutralise the acidic ph level which increases as ketones are broken down.

LMT

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #409 on: 23 February, 2016, 12:08:43 pm »
Homo Sapiens Sapiens are omnivore. They'll eat anything they can find or catch.

Cooking helps, as our ancestors found.

Really?
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6wY_zIg74vw/Vb54kEc8J0I/AAAAAAAAAcE/WlWRkGU2G0k/s1600/comparative%2Banatomy%2Bof%2Bfrugivore.jpg

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #410 on: 23 February, 2016, 12:42:47 pm »
Homo Sapiens Sapiens are omnivore. They'll eat anything they can find or catch.

Cooking helps, as our ancestors found.

+1

We are super adaptable.

Our main system for producing energy (ATP) for our cells is the aerobic system; it's a pretty complicated pathway but our bodies can use carbs, fat & protein  for this using The Krebs Cycle. At higher power outputs the higher oxygen demand for burning fat makes glucose/glycogen a preferable choice where power matters. (There are other means of producing energy Phospo Creatine system, Cori Cycle etc).

Once your source is real whole food possible to construct a healthy diet with all types of macros.

On ketosis (which I've tried but don't practice) not sure how one can say definitely that it's unhealthy; how could we have evolved without it? During periods of starvation, winter with low plant supply etc where would our brain get the necessary 600 cals a day or so for the 1kg organ on top of our shoulders that will only run on glucose or glucose/ketones. Without the adaption to enter ketosis (or some other back up system) how could we have survived times of scarcity?

While a love  of nature/animals is an admirable quality, using it as a basis for asserting what is the correct way for all people to eat all of the time  leaves one a little vulnerable to an accusation of bias.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #411 on: 23 February, 2016, 02:08:47 pm »
Homo Sapiens Sapiens are omnivore. They'll eat anything they can find or catch.

Cooking helps, as our ancestors found.

+1

We are super adaptable.

Our main system for producing energy (ATP) for our cells is the aerobic system; it's a pretty complicated pathway but our bodies can use carbs, fat & protein  for this using The Krebs Cycle. At higher power outputs the higher oxygen demand for burning fat makes glucose/glycogen a preferable choice where power matters. (There are other means of producing energy Phospo Creatine system, Cori Cycle etc).

Once your source is real whole food possible to construct a healthy diet with all types of macros.

On ketosis (which I've tried but don't practice) not sure how one can say definitely that it's unhealthy; how could we have evolved without it? During periods of starvation, winter with low plant supply etc where would our brain get the necessary 600 cals a day or so for the 1kg organ on top of our shoulders that will only run on glucose or glucose/ketones. Without the adaption to enter ketosis (or some other back up system) how could we have survived times of scarcity?

While a love  of nature/animals is an admirable quality, using it as a basis for asserting what is the correct way for all people to eat all of the time  leaves one a little vulnerable to an accusation of bias.

Totally agree.

There are human haplatypes who don't eat plant derived starches. Inuit Indians for example who survive on seal, walrus and fish. They got an obesity problem when European R1b haplatypes brought corn, wheat and chocolate filled foods to Alaska.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #412 on: 23 February, 2016, 02:12:28 pm »
"Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast."

Need we say more?


ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #413 on: 23 February, 2016, 02:28:48 pm »
Other than religion is bunk?

I'm a happy omnivore and likely to stay that way.  Whilst breakfast involved eggs and smoked salmon, lunch was entirely plant based.

The real problem of "earth raping" is chronic, uncontrolled overpopulation and fuelling that entirely (almost) by carbon.
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Chris S

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #414 on: 23 February, 2016, 02:31:27 pm »
Ah - one of YACF's favourite Trolls - we love you, LMT  :thumbsup:.

I particularly like:

Quote
Carbs are not the enemy - carbs high in fat are.

What exactly are those "High fat carbs" then?

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #415 on: 23 February, 2016, 02:53:39 pm »
Ah - one of YACF's favourite Trolls - we love you, LMT  :thumbsup:.

I particularly like:

Quote
Carbs are not the enemy - carbs high in fat are.

What exactly are those "High fat carbs" then?

PIES, CAEK, chips, sweet & sour foods, many desserts...

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #416 on: 23 February, 2016, 02:57:34 pm »
"Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast."

Need we say more?

and Esau sold his birthright for a mess of potage cos he was famished after a morning of chasing food to hunt.
Biblical 'bonk'.

Chris S

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #417 on: 23 February, 2016, 02:59:20 pm »
Ah - one of YACF's favourite Trolls - we love you, LMT  :thumbsup:.

I particularly like:

Quote
Carbs are not the enemy - carbs high in fat are.

What exactly are those "High fat carbs" then?

PIES, CAEK, chips, sweet & sour foods, many desserts...

Mixtures of fat and carbs - different thing (or LMT's trolling was just ambiguous). Fat + Carbs is indeed a bad thing (and unbelievably yummy, sadly).

If you remove the carbs and just eat the fat, you'll be fine.
Remove the fat and just eat the carbs, you'll get fat and sick. Because there's no such thing as an essential carb, and it's the carbs that are fattening, not the fat.

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #418 on: 23 February, 2016, 03:06:43 pm »
anyone seen those experiments on mice where they feed them just the right fat/carb combination, usually something like cheesecake and they just gorge on it?

“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #419 on: 23 February, 2016, 03:07:12 pm »
I am not convinced that 'just eating the carbs' will make someone fat.
Starchy carbs unenhanced by either sugar or fat are too BORING to eat in HUGE quantities.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #420 on: 23 February, 2016, 03:14:31 pm »
Ah - one of YACF's favourite Trolls - we love you, LMT  :thumbsup:.

I particularly like:

Quote
Carbs are not the enemy - carbs high in fat are.

What exactly are those "High fat carbs" then?

PIES, CAEK, chips, sweet & sour foods, many desserts...

Mixtures of fat and carbs - different thing (or LMT's trolling was just ambiguous). Fat + Carbs is indeed a bad thing (and unbelievably yummy, sadly).

If you remove the carbs and just eat the fat, you'll be fine.
Remove the fat and just eat the carbs, you'll get fat and sick. Because there's no such thing as an essential carb, and it's the carbs that are fattening, not the fat.

Fat being essential and carbs not is not really helpful.

The amount of essential fatty acids we need in diet is a tiny percentage of any person's required calorific intake; other than that tiny percentage and protein (ignoring mirconutrients for argument sake) nothing else is essential, except we'd starve.... So we have to eat either fat and or carbs

There are plenty of populations who eat diets with very very high percentages of carbs(Stephan Gueynet has a good article on some south Pacific tribe who survive on super high carbs, predominantly sweet potato) and are predominantly lean, same also for Inuits who eat very little. Chris Masterjohn has a really interesting video on youtube where he discusses how different populations vary in the amount of receptors for starch they have in mouth; from memory as low as 3 to up to 15. Those populations with higher amounts have a very different insulin response to carbs.

The way this thing gets polarised doesn't generally lead to a helpful discussion.

Anyway I'm out

LMT

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #421 on: 23 February, 2016, 03:19:25 pm »
Ah - one of YACF's favourite Trolls - we love you, LMT  :thumbsup:.

I particularly like:

Quote
Carbs are not the enemy - carbs high in fat are.

What exactly are those "High fat carbs" then?

PIES, CAEK, chips, sweet & sour foods, many desserts...

Mixtures of fat and carbs - different thing (or LMT's trolling was just ambiguous). Fat + Carbs is indeed a bad thing (and unbelievably yummy, sadly).

If you remove the carbs and just eat the fat, you'll be fine.
Remove the fat and just eat the carbs, you'll get fat and sick. Because there's no such thing as an essential carb, and it's the carbs that are fattening, not the fat.

So the odd billion + people in Asia and Africa on a diet consisting of Rice, Beans, Potatoes, Lentils, Fruits & veg are fat and sick?!? Really?!? And you think I'm trolling?


LMT

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #422 on: 23 February, 2016, 03:22:24 pm »
Other than religion is bunk?

I'm a happy omnivore and likely to stay that way.  Whilst breakfast involved eggs and smoked salmon, lunch was entirely plant based.

The real problem of "earth raping" is chronic, uncontrolled overpopulation and fuelling that entirely (almost) by carbon.

Look up the amount of grain fed to animals (but could be given to humans) who we then kill and eat...look up the amount of CO2 emissions given off by livestock agriculture...look at the amount of water we use for said industry...look at the programmes which document the amount of pain that we inflict on animals for no good reason.

All of this is completely unnecessary, apart from Vitamin B12 there is nothing you cannot get from a diet which excludes animal products.

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #423 on: 23 February, 2016, 03:25:20 pm »
Ah - one of YACF's favourite Trolls - we love you, LMT  :thumbsup:.

I particularly like:

Quote
Carbs are not the enemy - carbs high in fat are.

What exactly are those "High fat carbs" then?

PIES, CAEK, chips, sweet & sour foods, many desserts...

Mixtures of fat and carbs - different thing (or LMT's trolling was just ambiguous). Fat + Carbs is indeed a bad thing (and unbelievably yummy, sadly).

If you remove the carbs and just eat the fat, you'll be fine.
Remove the fat and just eat the carbs, you'll get fat and sick. Because there's no such thing as an essential carb, and it's the carbs that are fattening, not the fat.

So the odd billion + people in Asia and Africa on a diet consisting of Rice, Beans, Potatoes, Lentils, Fruits & veg are fat and sick?!? Really?!? And you think I'm trolling?

T2 diabetes is extremely prevalent amongst the South Asian population exactly because of that diet
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #424 on: 23 February, 2016, 03:26:21 pm »
Other than religion is bunk?

I'm a happy omnivore and likely to stay that way.  Whilst breakfast involved eggs and smoked salmon, lunch was entirely plant based.

The real problem of "earth raping" is chronic, uncontrolled overpopulation and fuelling that entirely (almost) by carbon.
Which reinforces my view that there are too many humans

And before you start moralising, I prefer fish and game.
Look up the amount of grain fed to animals (but could be given to humans) who we then kill and eat...look up the amount of CO2 emissions given off by livestock agriculture...look at the amount of water we use for said industry...look at the programmes which document the amount of pain that we inflict on animals for no good reason.

All of this is completely unnecessary, apart from Vitamin B12 there is nothing you cannot get from a diet which excludes animal products.
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens