Author Topic: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?  (Read 201258 times)

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #550 on: 13 June, 2016, 09:08:15 pm »
it's difficult to ascertain someone else's fitness for comparison. a proper study of keto and non-keto athletes would be interesting.

Chris S

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #551 on: 13 June, 2016, 09:33:08 pm »
it's difficult to ascertain someone else's fitness for comparison. a proper study of keto and non-keto athletes would be interesting.

It's been done - have a look for Jeff Volek and FASTER study. I tried to get a link to the published paper, but all I can find are sites of ranting bloggers nattering about its results, but I think that was precisely the comparison that was being conducted. Jeff Volek has a long history of doing actual science on keto performance. There's not much $$ in it, because there's no commercial angle in "Just run/ride/walk for 10 hours, you don't need anything other than water." so the research budget is thin to say the least.

Actually, you won't find much in general other than anecdotes. But there are a lot of anecdotes - from athletes doing extraordinary things without the need for continual carb input; there's a lot of traction in it, but it's very niche and background.


ian

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #553 on: 14 June, 2016, 08:45:54 am »
Fad?

The problem with these diets is people start extrapolating single studies, often basic research, in vitro, or involving small numbers of subjects, to wide conclusions. They layers of pseudoscientific guff get laid on top. And then it's marketed. There's products. Stands in the supermarket. Passionate blogs. Ketogenic and proud. How dare you!

I don't much care what individuals eat, that's between them and their stomach. I just hate the fact that we weird diet. We have decades of sensible, well-researched dietary advice which gets ignored. Demonising carbohydrates just repeats the nonsense we've had with fats. Demonising any food group is a bit silly, there's no such thing as a generic carbohydrate any more than there is a fat.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #554 on: 14 June, 2016, 09:10:58 am »
Quite

I'm getting rather sick of the anti-vegan jokes (I'm not vegan) I keep seeing. Posted on facebook, pictures here and there.

Eat a varied diet, exercise well, you'll probably be fit and healthy.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #555 on: 14 June, 2016, 09:29:53 am »
Have you been reading the Telegraph, mr Charly? A week ago they had a feature of "ten amazing athletes you never knew were vegan" from Mike Tyson to people I'd never heard of and can't remember (but they might still be famous!). This week they had some bloke saying "I'm vegetarian and it's made me healthier but vegans are weird and unhealthy". Where has this sudden interest in veganism come from?
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #556 on: 14 June, 2016, 09:45:13 am »
Nope, it's stupid pictures and inane jokes all over.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #557 on: 14 June, 2016, 10:22:42 am »
I think that we all need to find our own diet.  Can the veto sustain you for a longish climb - yes.  Two very intense sessions yesterday. the a 500m climb in8.6km today.  No carbs at all.  Now I was not first to the top as I am unfit at the moment but I had no need for anything to eat.  I think kept works for me.


hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #558 on: 14 June, 2016, 12:37:00 pm »
I think that we all need to find our own diet.  Can the veto sustain you for a longish climb - yes.  Two very intense sessions yesterday. the a 500m climb in8.6km today.  No carbs at all.  Now I was not first to the top as I am unfit at the moment but I had no need for anything to eat.  I think kept works for me.

chris's auto text amuses...

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #559 on: 14 June, 2016, 12:46:45 pm »


Quite

I'm getting rather sick of the anti-vegan jokes (I'm not vegan) I keep seeing. Posted on facebook, pictures here and there.

Eat a varied diet, exercise well, you'll probably be fit and healthy.

Equally, I'm getting pretty sick of vegan scare mongering.
Eat a varied diet, exercise well, and you might end up fat and unhealthy anyway.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #560 on: 14 June, 2016, 03:26:25 pm »


Quite

I'm getting rather sick of the anti-vegan jokes (I'm not vegan) I keep seeing. Posted on facebook, pictures here and there.

Eat a varied diet, exercise well, you'll probably be fit and healthy.

Equally, I'm getting pretty sick of vegan scare mongering.
Eat a varied diet, exercise well, and you might end up fat and unhealthy anyway.
I think that bit is age.
It sucketh a big fat stinky one, m'dear. I hope you are more successful at blowing raspberries at it than I.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #561 on: 14 June, 2016, 04:07:22 pm »
The Food Program from yesterday afternoon's radio 4 is worth a listen. Not keto or carbo, but micro biome and actually quite sensible and interesting - obviously really as it included blue cheese...

Mike

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #562 on: 14 June, 2016, 04:34:59 pm »
I heard that prog, yes, v interesting.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #563 on: 14 June, 2016, 05:58:03 pm »
I apologise for my auto corrections.  My brain is functioning somewhat below par at the moment.  i don't sleep well away from home and the physical exercise.  4 days of tempo and above exercise have fried my cognitive abilities somewhat.  I am having an early nights sleep tonight and only a 115km team time trial tomorrow!

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #564 on: 14 June, 2016, 06:35:44 pm »
No need for apology! I was amused!
Srsly I hope you get the R&R you so obviously need &
Good luck with the TT!

Chris S

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #565 on: 14 June, 2016, 06:53:52 pm »
He probably just needs some carbs.

#LMT

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #566 on: 14 June, 2016, 07:09:47 pm »
You might think that but I can't possibly comment....

LMT

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #567 on: 22 June, 2016, 11:11:47 am »
Have you been reading the Telegraph, mr Charly? A week ago they had a feature of "ten amazing athletes you never knew were vegan" from Mike Tyson to people I'd never heard of and can't remember (but they might still be famous!). This week they had some bloke saying "I'm vegetarian and it's made me healthier but vegans are weird and unhealthy". Where has this sudden interest in veganism come from?

Because we care for the planet, we care for the animals and we care for what we eat. People say that we are morally superior - and they'd be right.

If you have a spare four and a half hours, I'd suggest watching cowspiracy, forks over knives and earthlings to see what a state the animal ag industry has bought upon us, and the damage we are doing to ourselves as a human species as well as to others. :)


LMT

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #568 on: 22 June, 2016, 11:15:57 am »
He probably just needs some carbs.

#LMT

Finally Chris talks some sense, the primary fuel for the brain is glucose, although preferred from non refined plant based sources. Bananas, apples, etc.

Chris S

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #569 on: 22 June, 2016, 11:44:15 am »
He probably just needs some carbs.

#LMT

Finally Chris talks some sense, the primary fuel for the brain is glucose, although preferred from non refined plant based sources. Bananas, apples, etc.

(My Bold).

I'm not sure the brain has a primary fuel - most brain tissue works equally well on ketones or glucose. The remaining tissues that are actually glucose dependent (those cells that lack mitochondria) can easily be supplied by glucose manufactured in the liver.

Some children with intractable epilepsy find their brains work much better on ketones - or at least, malfunction less.

A wholly unethical piece of research was done in the early 70s to prove that brains work fine on ketones. They took several diabetics, adapted them to a ketogenic diet, then pumped them so full of insulin, their blood glucose level was somewhere around 1mmol - a level which should have at the very least rendered them comatose. Not only were they still alive, they seemed completely unaffected, proving that their brains could work just fine without glucose.

Most tissue types can use ketones for fuel. Skeletal muscle prefers to burn free fatty acid over ketones, but requires increasing amounts of glucose in order to work anaerobically; FFAs just don't burn hot enough when you're doing your birthday squats.

LMT

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #570 on: 22 June, 2016, 11:58:34 am »
He probably just needs some carbs.

#LMT

Finally Chris talks some sense, the primary fuel for the brain is glucose, although preferred from non refined plant based sources. Bananas, apples, etc.

(My Bold).

I'm not sure the brain has a primary fuel - most brain tissue works equally well on ketones or glucose. The remaining tissues that are actually glucose dependent (those cells that lack mitochondria) can easily be supplied by glucose manufactured in the liver.

Some children with intractable epilepsy find their brains work much better on ketones - or at least, malfunction less.

A wholly unethical piece of research was done in the early 70s to prove that brains work fine on ketones. They took several diabetics, adapted them to a ketogenic diet, then pumped them so full of insulin, their blood glucose level was somewhere around 1mmol - a level which should have at the very least rendered them comatose. Not only were they still alive, they seemed completely unaffected, proving that their brains could work just fine without glucose.

Most tissue types can use ketones for fuel. Skeletal muscle prefers to burn free fatty acid over ketones, but requires increasing amounts of glucose in order to work anaerobically; FFAs just don't burn hot enough when you're doing your birthday squats.

 ::-)

It has, it's called glucose.

Morat

  • I tried to HTFU but something went ping :(
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #571 on: 22 June, 2016, 12:16:53 pm »
Sorry to bring the debate to down to a really trivial question but does the "Keto Breath" go away after a while or do you simply stop noticing it? I've been in full ketosis a few times now and not noticed the breath, but others did. I'm pondering going back to keto but if it means my wife has to live with a stinky husband for more than a week or so then it might not be a goer.
Everyone's favourite windbreak

Chris S

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #572 on: 22 June, 2016, 01:09:30 pm »
Sorry to bring the debate to down to a really trivial question but does the "Keto Breath" go away after a while or do you simply stop noticing it? I've been in full ketosis a few times now and not noticed the breath, but others did. I'm pondering going back to keto but if it means my wife has to live with a stinky husband for more than a week or so then it might not be a goer.

It goes away. Once you start burning ketones for fuel, there won't be any (much) excess in your breath or wee (yes, your wee will stink too - they don't tell you about that bit!). It'll probably take a few weeks.

Chris S

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #573 on: 22 June, 2016, 01:13:16 pm »
It has, it's called glucose.

Er, yeah OK. Whatevs.

Meanwhile - we haven't had a gratuitous keto food picture for AGES, so here's a picture of my lunch.

Macros: 15% Carbs, 15% Protein, 70% Fat, and just for LMT - 0% Animal  :thumbsup:



ETA: You know what, he's right - I am feeling morally higher.

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #574 on: 22 June, 2016, 06:42:46 pm »
Moral superiority is not an objective viewpoint, anyone can (and has) claimed that and gone on to commit what others would consider atrocities.

Somebody once tried to tell me I could get all my daily protein needs from broccoli, until I pointed out their g/kg confusion rendering their argument possible, but wholly impractical. 
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens