Author Topic: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?  (Read 198254 times)

LMT

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #625 on: 23 August, 2016, 11:24:13 am »
Earlier in this thread, I think someone had queried just how viable a ketogenic diet would be for going fast. 

I had an interesting experience on the Whitstable FNRttC at the weekend.  As I wasn't TECing, nor leading the ride for a change, I got to do a lot of waymarking involving zooming around a lot, as well as partaking in the traditional 7 mile sprint for the finish to the Waterfront Cafe. 

On going through my GPS data for the final stretch, which included setting off from a stop, I found I averaged 24.7 mph with a peak of 32.3 mph and found I could do with some higher gearing than 50x11.  Also, I wasn't particularly out of breath (unlike everyone I'd overtaken) and felt I could easily have carried on going, which certainly wasn't the case the last time I raced that section before I went keto, when despite doing similar riding, was completely wasted before the end. 

So, totally unscientific, but I certainly felt being keto has improved my top end as well as my endurance.

For balance you perhaps should have added the strong SW wind that you had behind you?



Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #626 on: 23 August, 2016, 11:30:16 am »
I got a KOM the other day. Keto baby!

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #627 on: 23 August, 2016, 11:31:50 am »
Earlier in this thread, I think someone had queried just how viable a ketogenic diet would be for going fast. 

I had an interesting experience on the Whitstable FNRttC at the weekend.  As I wasn't TECing, nor leading the ride for a change, I got to do a lot of waymarking involving zooming around a lot, as well as partaking in the traditional 7 mile sprint for the finish to the Waterfront Cafe. 

On going through my GPS data for the final stretch, which included setting off from a stop, I found I averaged 24.7 mph with a peak of 32.3 mph and found I could do with some higher gearing than 50x11.  Also, I wasn't particularly out of breath (unlike everyone I'd overtaken) and felt I could easily have carried on going, which certainly wasn't the case the last time I raced that section before I went keto, when despite doing similar riding, was completely wasted before the end. 

So, totally unscientific, but I certainly felt being keto has improved my top end as well as my endurance.
If you're not really out of breath, it's hardly a measure of your "top end", is it?

(I'm not bashing keto, just bashing this useless anecdatum!)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

LMT

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #628 on: 23 August, 2016, 11:32:14 am »
I got a KOM the other day. Keto baby!

I got six on one ride - plant based all the way.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #629 on: 23 August, 2016, 11:34:48 am »
I got a KOM the other day. Keto baby!

I got six on one ride - plant based all the way.

I'm fat though.

LMT

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #630 on: 23 August, 2016, 11:54:59 am »
I thought keto aided weight loss?

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #631 on: 23 August, 2016, 11:56:11 am »
I'm less fat than I was.

Adam

  • It'll soon be summer
    • Charity ride Durness to Dover 18-25th June 2011
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #632 on: 23 August, 2016, 02:37:27 pm »
Earlier in this thread, I think someone had queried just how viable a ketogenic diet would be for going fast. 

I had an interesting experience on the Whitstable FNRttC at the weekend.  As I wasn't TECing, nor leading the ride for a change, I got to do a lot of waymarking involving zooming around a lot, as well as partaking in the traditional 7 mile sprint for the finish to the Waterfront Cafe. 

On going through my GPS data for the final stretch, which included setting off from a stop, I found I averaged 24.7 mph with a peak of 32.3 mph and found I could do with some higher gearing than 50x11.  Also, I wasn't particularly out of breath (unlike everyone I'd overtaken) and felt I could easily have carried on going, which certainly wasn't the case the last time I raced that section before I went keto, when despite doing similar riding, was completely wasted before the end. 

So, totally unscientific, but I certainly felt being keto has improved my top end as well as my endurance.

For balance you perhaps should have added the strong SW wind that you had behind you?

Only for the first third.  Definite crosswind for a long stretch.
“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving.” -Albert Einstein


Chris S

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #634 on: 29 August, 2016, 10:57:30 am »
What happened to John Yudkin was deplorable; reputation destroyed by conniving Big Food Business and the US administration of the time . And waddya know, he was right all along.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #635 on: 29 August, 2016, 11:05:28 am »
Actually Chris, I don't think that Big Food business was the prime mover.  I think it was his "colleagues".

Chris S

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #636 on: 29 August, 2016, 11:10:44 am »
Mostly Ancel Keys - acting under instruction from the US administration, who in turn were pandering to the National Corn Growers.
This happened at about the same time that HFCS was invented - there was a lot of vested interests leaning on the government.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #637 on: 29 August, 2016, 12:00:03 pm »
Certainly Ancel keys was a big part of it.  I have not seen anything to suggest he was paid by big business.  McGovern was a major part of the witch-hunt and we know how he ran other witch-hunts!

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #638 on: 29 August, 2016, 12:23:51 pm »
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/early/2016/07/05/ajcn.116.133561.abstract

Study funded by organization set up by Taubes and Attia, but with independent researchers. Not the answer they were hoping for I would think.

Discussion here from Stephan Gueynet

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.ie/2016/07/nusi-funded-study-serves-up_6.html?m=1

LMT

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #639 on: 29 August, 2016, 02:58:49 pm »
Nothing new regarding refined sugar, sugar from whole foods source though....


hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #640 on: 29 August, 2016, 03:42:19 pm »
My semi-educated view on sugars is that they are treated similarly by the body, whatever the source.

Most natural foods that contain sugars have them quite well-diluted and/or padded out with fibre. There might be 10g sugar in 100g apple but you'd need to chew your apple for a couple of minutes to get this sugar. There's about the same amount of sugar in 100ml of juice or full-fat cola, which you can swallow in 10 seconds, without feeling as if you've eaten a thing.

Some sugars are just far to easy to consume in large amounts.

They are mostly refined but the issue is the ease of over-consumption, whatever the source.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #641 on: 31 August, 2016, 08:26:08 am »
Just wondering if i can get some input from People doing significant formal training on a keto diet.

I have been following the keto diet for about 8 months now and my endurance is great.

I recently started working with a coach with more structured intense efforts.

Monday evening I did (for me) a very big set of out of the saddle power climbs, 4 strava PBs and a new power record.  Tuesday ate standard keto meals. relatively poor sleep last night
This morning went to do my turbo session and legs barely managed the warmup!.

It may be that I am not recovering as well, I am 58.

It may be that I just have not recovered.

But I wondered if those doing formal training find they need to up the carbs after very intense efforts to replenish the glycogen fast enough?

Thanks for the advice.

Chris S

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #642 on: 31 August, 2016, 09:53:36 am »
Generally speaking, I've found recovery to be quicker when I'm strictly keto - carby diets tend to be inflammatory.

Could just be a one off? More protein after a hard anaerobic workout will help both muscle recovery, and replenishing your glycogen.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #643 on: 31 August, 2016, 09:59:27 am »
I have no intention of going on a keto diet but I'm curious if those on it follow the 20min guideline (take on board fuel within 20min of ceasing exercise).

When I was doing lots of miles (for me) I found it made a lot of difference to my recovery. My refuelling was usually a drink that was high in protein, probably something you would regard as ok on a keto diet actually. Low carbs, I switched from commercial sports SiS recovery drinks to home-made ones based on milk with large amounts of cocoa powder (not hot chocolate powder, cocoa powder).
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #644 on: 31 August, 2016, 10:15:26 am »
Thanks Chris. I did take a protein supplement and then did an hour of zone 1 cycling yesterday just to keep moving. May be a larger helping of protein next time.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #645 on: 31 August, 2016, 10:20:24 pm »
Thanks Chris. I did take a protein supplement and then did an hour of zone 1 cycling yesterday just to keep moving. May be a larger helping of protein next time.


Hi Chris

Peter Attia eat starch/carb before/after intense efforts when he was keto. He also promoted 'super starch', although I am not entirely convinced of it's efficacy. Although it was low GI, it seemed to not fully release it's glucose and I wondered if you could achieve the same by just using a conventional glucose or maltodextrin energy drink at a lower concentration and over time?

He has now left NuSci and is silent on nutrition it seems.

Mike

Edited to add - taking in a lot of protein will replenish muscle glycogen will achieve this through breaking the protein down to glucose for circulation in the blood and storage as glycogen in the muscles. Would low concentration carb work without spiking insulin aggresively, which I presume is the aim. A question?

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #646 on: 31 August, 2016, 10:59:50 pm »
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/early/2016/07/05/ajcn.116.133561.abstract

Study funded by organization set up by Taubes and Attia, but with independent researchers. Not the answer they were hoping for I would think.

Discussion here from Stephan Gueynet

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.ie/2016/07/nusi-funded-study-serves-up_6.html?m=1

If you can avoid the zealots, there's some interesting commentary on this study, including a transcript of a discussion that Hall, the lead researcher, had online.

My initial thoughts, not yet conclusive of course:

The study demonstrates the failure of the carb insulin model of obesity, pushing us back to calories in out for total weight gain/loss. This is consistent with work done previously in the UK.

Hall acknowledges that satiety is a big issue in achieving maintaining weight. Anecdotal evidence supports the view that fat based diets don't leave people as hungry. This is corroborated with my experience,  to the extent I find it hard to eat enough on a very low carb diet.

The study doesn't consider the possible long term health benefit or consequences of limiting carb intake.

Mike

ElyDave

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Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #647 on: 31 August, 2016, 11:22:00 pm »
Just wondering if i can get some input from People doing significant formal training on a keto diet.

I have been following the keto diet for about 8 months now and my endurance is great.

I recently started working with a coach with more structured intense efforts.

Monday evening I did (for me) a very big set of out of the saddle power climbs, 4 strava PBs and a new power record.  Tuesday ate standard keto meals. relatively poor sleep last night
This morning went to do my turbo session and legs barely managed the warmup!.

It may be that I am not recovering as well, I am 58.

It may be that I just have not recovered.

But I wondered if those doing formal training find they need to up the carbs after very intense efforts to replenish the glycogen fast enough?

Thanks for the advice.

Not really formal training as such, but my first 200 audax at the weekend. Normal carbs for me are about 50g/day.

Sunday, I turned the insulin pump down to 20% of normal. Total carbs consumed 230g in the day, about 180g on the ride. Completed in 7 h 15 riding time vs target of 8hr. So approx 20-25g/hr, the textbooks for diabetes would suggest 130g/hr for my bodyweight at 18 mph.

Carb consumption was aimed at keeping the blood glucose between 5 and 7. I've not experimented with letting it go lower consistently.

Send fairly positive to me.

EDITED - checked my records and I misreported the carbs a bit, but the conclusion remains the same.
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #648 on: 01 September, 2016, 07:59:03 am »
Mike and Ely

Thank you for the input.  I saw that paper and I must say that I was not overly impressed by it.  I would be interested to know who designed it as it does not look much better than the majority of previous nutrition research.  I certainly do not think that would be passed by any of the funding streams I apply to!!
However it does seem to suggest that, as one would expect, the situation is more complex than we simplistically think.  hopefully at some point we will have get a synthesis of the various views and can move away from the bullying rhetoric of the last 50 years.

I think I will try to measure my ketones on a more regular basis and up my post exercise session carbs and see what happens.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #649 on: 01 September, 2016, 10:42:32 am »
Mike and Ely

Thank you for the input.  I saw that paper and I must say that I was not overly impressed by it.  I would be interested to know who designed it as it does not look much better than the majority of previous nutrition research.  I certainly do not think that would be passed by any of the funding streams I apply to!!
However it does seem to suggest that, as one would expect, the situation is more complex than we simplistically think.  hopefully at some point we will have get a synthesis of the various views and can move away from the bullying rhetoric of the last 50 years.

I think I will try to measure my ketones on a more regular basis and up my post exercise session carbs and see what happens.

Hi Chris

The second study hasn't been published yet, but the protocol was 2 months in a metabolic ward with 1 month on a Base diet then a switch to ketogenic, replacing carb with fat and maintaining caloric equivalence, plus controlled exercise too. The diet was well controlled and the design agreed/supported by Taubes and Attia. Hall has discussed the results meanwhile and that was what I referred to above. Nusi funded the study.

Another outcome was that there was an initial loss of protein on the keto diet, although I think that stabilised fairly quickly.

The situation is clearly complex, but there are some simple takeaways - certainly for individuals with fully functional endocrine systems (apparently almost no elite athletes!) around energy in and out balance. Other issues are harder to get clarity on still, and there may well be some advantage to be gained in endurance performance by using a keto regime to support an increase in the amount of fat burned at higher exercise rates - provided of course the overall rate achievable doesn't fall.

I agree some well supported consensus and less name calling would be good. These aren't beliefs to be held on to, just the mechanics of how our, variable, bodies work.

Mike