Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?

[simonp]

Coming back to the discussion of recovery from hard efforts:

 - aging leads to more recovery time needed
 - ditching hard efforts is probably not a good idea as they help to reduce the decline in aerobic capacity

Also, being tired after one unaccustomed hard effort doesn't mean you won't adapt to them and be able to recover better in future.

[chrisbainbridge]

Simon

This was the hardest effort for a while but I have done hard efforts although acknowledge that I am deskilled by recent injury.  I was asking specifically about adding in carbs to replenish glycogen stores in addition to extra protein. 

[simonp]

The effect on glycogen recovery of the post-workout feed is normally fairly minimal, AIUI. Normally people recover muscle glycogen adequately via normal dietary intake; nutrients that might otherwise be stored as fat should be directed to muscle glycogen. However, given low carb intake the post-workout feed might be more effective. But note that peripheral insulin resistance can occur in ketosis and this might counter that.

The typical protocol includes some protein which increases the insulin response over and above carbs alone.

[roffa]

I have no intention of going on a keto diet but I'm curious if those on it follow the 20min guideline (take on board fuel within 20min of ceasing exercise).

When I was doing lots of miles (for me) I found it made a lot of difference to my recovery. My refuelling was usually a drink that was high in protein, probably something you would regard as ok on a keto diet actually. Low carbs, I switched from commercial sports SiS recovery drinks to home-made ones based on milk with large amounts of cocoa powder (not hot chocolate powder, cocoa powder).

I cycle fairly long distances, and have been on a keto type diet for over a year. I don't do fueling during rides, no "recovery" whatever after, and recover fine. I do however drink more fluids than I would if not on keto and I up the electrolytes, especially sodium! High protein not a good idea on keto, for me. What I like is the freedom not to have to refuel carbs every hour. I can eat normal meals (keto pattern), consume some fats like mct oil. I sometimes use a ketone drink (ketocana), but I do that less and less. I think keto is excellent for endurance.

[TheRedEyeJedi]

Hi,

I posted the quotes below in the year record thread....

Thought you might like my completely unscientific evaluation after 2 months of Keto.

My weight loss is from 17st 10 to 15st 10.   11cm off my waist (approx 200 miles aweek on the bike plus various gym work but otherwise sedentry)

My partner does no real exercise but is down a similar amount - even more loss in terms of measurements and most importantly the upset stomach issues she had are gone, and her inflammation markers have all but disappeared....This was the main reason we entered into this, for its reported benefits in helping large cell arthritis.



"I have recently gone through a Keto/High fat adaption period of 2 months which is why I asked about Steves diet.

Main objective for me was to lose weight (I have always struggled and cycling more and more just resulted in being more and more hungry), and to help my partners medical condition. (Keto has some reported benefits in reducing inflammation markers)

The results so far are staggering ... I am losing centimeters off my body each weak and fuelling rides is a thing of the past.   I am comfortable on fasted rides up to 8 hours and the biggest benefit is I have no urge to feed as soon as I return or in the following day or weak.

High Fat diet isn't a miracle or a fad imo ... its just a very effective way to take sugar and carbs out of your diet.  This allows weight loss because you eat less, fasted training and then you have to decide how to add carbs back in.  For me its a way of resetting a bad diet and starting again without a high sugar/carb dependency.

I was completely addicted to sugar and carbs.  I think I have kicked the sugar and bread habits now.  Its staggering how much sugar I was consuming before even in 'good' foods and I am completely shocked by how little I really needed to carb load or fuel a ride with sugar.

I very much doubt its a good choice for track cycling or time trialing, or anything involving a massive effort - but its a great diet for weight loss combined with endurance sport.   You just have the pain of the adaption process  and you cant cheat on this diet (unless your doing 240 miles a day...then you can afford to take In some extra carbs and sugar im sure!).   Im very encouraged that Steve has stuck to it and found it useful.   Really interested in Steves comments about Olive oil and sugar free drinks too - I had not considered either of those points."

[Manotea]

I understand your comments about using Keto to reset a bad diet and that may work for you but ... I dunno. Some describe Keto as a 'forever change and whilst there will inevitably be  lapses I think that's where I'll be. I find it's exactly like being an alcoholic/drug addict;  sugar - which for me includes all carb based foods - is a drug that just screws me up, and it's simpler just to swear off the stuff completely. My only regret is that I didn't find out about the Keto diet 30 years ago.

[stevie63]

The more I read about LCHF diets, the more I think I would like to give it a go. But can anyone point me in the direction of the best resources to come up with meal ideas. Is there a book that could be recommended for this?

[TheRedEyeJedi]

The more I read about LCHF diets, the more I think I would like to give it a go. But can anyone point me in the direction of the best resources to come up with meal ideas. Is there a book that could be recommended for this?

What you want to do is to work out what suitable food types you like ... then buy them and then think about meals each day.  Basically it just involves buying and cooking 'real' food.  Fresh ingredients and good meat cost us more but we are eating less, buying less, not eating out much and saving a fortune in takeaways ect so we treat our self to good meat and veg.

My breakfast is normally either nothing or eggs and bacon
My lunch is either nothing green salad with loads of grated parmesan and cesar dressing with what ever cold meat was left over from dinner
Dinner tends to be meat with green veg and gravy or meat with salad... or some kind of eggs.

Slow cooker stuff is great.  We have Bolognese and chilli without the rice and pasta.... we have red and green curries without the added extras.
We also eat lots of stews and creamy casseroles....all of these work great for lunch the next day

Fat head pizza is just as good as real pizza - google it, its easy.

I have the occasional blueberry and cream pudding.

Other great puddings are low carb, drk chocolate mug cakes and low carb cheesecake.

Almond flour can be used in most things as a substitute for flour but it should be a treat, not a staple.

Search for Keto recipes, or reddit keto recipes and there is masses of stuff out there.

[TheRedEyeJedi]

I understand your comments about using Keto to reset a bad diet and that may work for you but ... I dunno. Some describe Keto as a 'forever change and whilst there will inevitably be  lapses I think that's where I'll be. I find it's exactly like being an alcoholic/drug addict;  sugar - which for me includes all carb based foods - is a drug that just screws me up, and it's simpler just to swear off the stuff completely. My only regret is that I didn't find out about the Keto diet 30 years ago.

Im with you ....im not talking about eating what I want again, because quite quickly what I would want would be crisps, bread, lager, rice and haribo...I much prefer things now, not craving any of things and really enjoying clean food.   I do think if I enter into time trialing next year which is my intention, that I will need to think about some complex carb intake in cycles.   Im not convinced being fully Keto allows for explosive efforts or short, hard powerful intervals.   

[Manotea]

The more I read about LCHF diets, the more I think I would like to give it a go. But can anyone point me in the direction of the best resources to come up with meal ideas. Is there a book that could be recommended for this?

Checkout ruled.me website for some free ebooks on getting started, then 'caveman keto' website or lookup Keto on Pinterest for more recipes than you can shake a stick at.

[zigzag]

<...>
Im not convinced being fully Keto allows for explosive efforts or short, hard powerful intervals.

have a cake steak and eat it too?

igmc

[DrMekon]

No keto, but did you see this in the news?

http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.celrep.2016.09.047

The hoo-ha is that high protein diets in the context of calorie restriction to not have the same benefits on insulin sensitivity. However, what it did indicate is that a 45c/25f/30p diet preserves fat free muscle mass in the context of weight loss compared to a 50c/30f/20p diet

"Both the WL and WL-HP groups lost
10% of their initial body weight [because they only took them off the diet once they had - can't see if the time it took is reported], but the contribution of fat free mass (FFM) to total weight loss was
45% less in the WLHP group than in the WL group"

BUT!!!

OMG all this noise from 27 participants? Jeeze, how few? Diet compliance measured with...MyFitnessPal? Lord alive - I cannot imagine getting the press they've gotten with such a weenie weak study.

[The French Tandem]

Maybe what is good for making post-menopausal women lose weight, and what is good for making cyclists ride faster and further are two different things?

[Auntie Helen]

Well I decided to try the LCHF diet and started four days ago.

I am averaging 40-50 grams of carb daily for an 1850 calorie allowance (currently tracking in MyFitnessPal as I get the hang of it).

This morning's poop was much lighter in colour. Having had liver failure 2 years ago I am quite sensitive to poo colour. Now I assume this is a result of the change of diet as the liver thing was an acute illness which resolved after two weeks, and my poops were much lighter in colour then, but does anyone think I should increase my carbs and decrease the fat? Or is it likely to go away or be the new normal?

It's a weird feeling, not being hungry all the time!!!

[Chris S]

I guess there will be fewer pictures of cake on the internet, for a while then? 

IANAD, so won't comment at all about your medical history, but clearly you'll fit right in to the keto kommunity, as ketoers are notoriously interested in their poo; you only need to count the poo threads on reddit/keto to see that.

In spoiler tags in deference to the squeamish:

(click to show/hide)

My experience is - it's different, for sure. Paler - yes, I suppose so; I would just say "better" - odour free, easy to pass, much less volume.

If you're concerned - check with your GP; though you might expect some push-back about the diet. I'm not sure about medical training over there, but UK/US medics receive bugger-all training on nutrition, so they tow the general line of received wisdom, which has probably been influenced by "Big Sugar".

[Auntie Helen]

Visiting a doctor here is a bit of a procedure so I will practice the 'wait and see' approach. I just don't know if it would be advisable to increase my carbs and reduce the fat in the meantime.

[hellymedic]

I would worry about poop colour with your history!

Since getting to see a doctor is such a kerfuffle for you, I suggest you should:
Observe the colour of your wee and skin
See a doctor if you feel  or ill in any other way

I don't know what the cause of your previous liver trouble and how that would relate to a LCHF diet.

[L CC]

(click to show/hide)

My poop on LCHF is yellower. I think it's just how your guts deal with all the cheese.

[tonyh]

(The stuff squashed under the spoilers is just a little disappointing.)

[hellymedic]

(click to show/hide)

As I understand it, poop is mostly coloured by bilirubin, which is formed in the liver from spent red blood cells' haemoglobin. This should be produced at a constant rate; blood cells usually last about 3 months and are constant produced and replaced. A failing liver will not do this well, while obstruction of the bile duct will drive the bilirubin into the blood, causing jaundice, pale stools and dark urine. Increased fat in the stools might make them paler and float in the loo, but this is not healthy.

[Auntie Helen]

The good news is, this evening's poop was normal colour.

My liver problem was directly after a super-nasty bout of the flu two years ago but resolved completely after a couple of weeks (phew!!). But naturally it makes me more aware of some potential indicators.

So far (day 4) I seem to be avoiding the carb flu. I am drinking loads of water and making sure I have extra salt. Fingers crossed!!

[JohnR]

Now then peeps, I'm kinda wanting to try this out but have a few reservations.
I don't need to lose weight, but wondering if this will help me on long rides, here's my dilemma;

I carb load up before and try to during the ride, but fail miserably, you see I find it hard to eat when riding. More to the point, my body doesn't want feeding when riding and also my appetite is reduced after the ride until about the next day. So eventually I run out of energy at some point in the ride and my speed becomes sooo slooow with my legs feeling like I'm pulling a 2 ton elephant along with me.

I've read a few articles and all seem positive except for one which paints the picture as follows:
Eat carbs, blood sugar levels rise, insulin secreted to normalise this and fat stored while leptin inhibited? It goes on to say that when toomuch fat is stored, the fat cells produce more leptin to signal the brain to stop eating but somehow the message is lost in translation (leptin resistance) so brain falsely thinks we are starving so need to eat. However the article goes on to say that once body fat is normalised, less leptin is produced so brain thinks we need to eat etc but more importantly because leptin is reduced, energy levels will reduce also.

My question is once on this lifestyle change do people need to have carb loading days to satisfy the low leptin?

Do you think this will help me with my dilemma?
Thanks in advance.

[chrisbainbridge]

Hi John

My experience is that carb loading is not necessary at all.

It takes time to convert from running on sugar to running on fat.  This can be between 3 and 15 days depending on the person and you are likely to be cranky, tired, headache, etc.

The problem is that once you are fat adapted, carb loading puts you back to a carb based metabolism and you then need to spend a few days adapting again.

Don't worry about the leptin, it will sort itself out and so will your body.  You just have to commit to no carbs for the cycling season.

[Chris S]

If you find eating difficult when cycling, then a low-carb approach could be ideal for you. One reason ultra-runners are really going for low-carb diets is it removes the need to force down carbs during an event, at the risk of a DNF due to gastric distress; something quite common in the ultra-distance world of running/cycling.

If you remove all easily assimilated sugars, starches and grains from your diet¹, your insulin level will fall back to a steady level, which will make it easier for you to burn fat reserves. Combine this with some practice with fasted training, and you should find there's a disconnection between hunger and energy flow, which will mean you can continue to exercise, even if you're hungry.

The longer you maintain a low-carb diet, the better your body will become at burning fats, and at higher work-rates, which means you'll be able to climb hills or ride harder without dipping into carb reserves.

Leptin signalling is mostly messed up by a high intake of fructose (either from added HFCS, uncommon outside the USA, or from drinking a lot of fruit juice).

(x-post with Chris)

-----------
¹ In practice, this means no sugar of any kind, no bread, rice, potato, pasta or anything else made of grains like oats, wheat, or rye, as well as beer. Carbs should only come from above-ground vegetables or some berries.

[ElyDave]

Haad my annual daibetic consult just before christmas and the registrar was Swiss this time.  Funnily enough she'd been researching the effectiveness of low carb diets in T1 and so was very positive about what I was doing and was quite interested in how I can manage the endurance exercise with it (typically 20g carbs/hr extra for me if I'm going >2hrs).  Unfortunately there are no real studies on T1D athletes in low carb, I did offer myself up.

One thing she did tell me though was that it's possible to "fat load" and that the fat stored in muscles is not affected by circulating insulin levels whilst utilising stored sub-cut etc fat is supressed.  She also said tht the muscle stored fat is much more easily accessible for muscle fuelling.

I'm inferring from that that a high fat snack or meal immediately after a workout might help you to be more efficient in fat burning earlier i the next workout before your circulating insulin falls and you can then access stored reserves. Us pancreatically challenged folks still need to remember to turn the pump down well ahead of time.

I'm interested in those that are saying "no carbs during exercise" as well, as that's not Phinney and Volek's stance, they suggest that during exercise a happy medium of carbs is OK, with the aim of being <50g/day normally/