Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?

[Auntie Helen]

How does the panel on HFLC deal with the need for fibre and roughage?

i use a lot of linseed, chuck them in scrambled eggs or on my salads. I get them free from work (food ingredients manufacturer) but they are available in most health food shops and large supermarkets here in Germany.

[Chris S]

How does the panel on HFLC deal with the need for fibre and roughage?

If anything, the proportion of a well formulated LCHF diet that's fibrous is probably higher compared to a standard western diet; imagine a "normal" meal - meat, two veg and potatoes - now remove the potatoes.

I've found my insides generally much more settled on LCHF - less windy (no more fart wars), and more even-tempered.

[TheRedEyeJedi]

How does the panel on HFLC deal with the need for fibre and roughage?

The majority of my evening meals are meat and veg or salad (mainly broccoli, spinach, sprouts, cauliflower, green beans, cabbage).

Treats are mainly nut based or celery with cheese.

I really don't think getting fibre or roughage is an issue eating like this.

[Von Broad]

Hey there, Von Broad!

I'm a Ted Naiman fan bois, and I cannot lie.


Diet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzcOz38FjaU&t=26s

Exercise:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlYXb1xs86U

Hi Chris,
I'm not sure I could do a keto diet [no bread and spuds: nightmare!] but It's been interesting reading/watching all this stuff on you tube - and boy, there's so much of it out there! If nothing else I think everybody could do with a bit as basic understanding of how sugar turns to fat and how much of a strain the pancreas can potentially come under from our modern way of living and eating - which can't be good for any of us.
For me these sugary things are like beer - if it's there in front of me, then I'll eat it - there is little discipline, so it's easier not to buy it in the first place. Same with cakes/biscuits etc. Yesterday, I bought some strawberry cheesecake ice scream that was on offer in Sainsburys [Oh yes, look at that - I must have it! - the buggers know how to get you . The idea was to keep it at least two days. Scoffed the bloody lot.

Having said that, I'd really quite like to have a go at keto as an experiment, for no other reason than to see how it impacted audax riding [of which I'm doing nowt at the moment]. I'm quite intrigued by the 'we got to the cafe and didn't feel like eating' sensation. I can get a bit paranoid about food when I'm riding [must always be carrying something], mind you, that also has a lot to do with never ever really being fit, but just about getting by. So, we'll see.... 

Anyway, I've gone back over the thread a couple of times, and was wondering how you and fboab got on during PBP 2015 - assuming you were both Keto at the time? I assume it wasn't easy to stick to the diet during the ride? Did you just not worry and make a decision to abandon the diet for the duration of the ride and pick it up again when you got home?

[L CC]

 

I assume it wasn't easy to stick to the diet during the ride? Did you just not worry and make a decision to abandon the diet for the duration of the ride and pick it up again when you got home?

We didn't even really try. Once you're riding for 24 hours you'll use every carb you swallow.

[Von Broad]

I assume it wasn't easy to stick to the diet during the ride? Did you just not worry and make a decision to abandon the diet for the duration of the ride and pick it up again when you got home?

We didn't even really try. Once you're riding for 24 hours you'll use every carb you swallow.

Ok. So that period would have naturally 'thrown you out of ketosis' [sorry, it's the blogs again?]but what interests me is how easy or difficult was it for you to get back into the keto swing of things? Was the transition like starting the whole process again, or was it more of a seemless experience, and if so, has it given you the confidence to play with those edges, so to speak - providing you never stray to far from the path?

[Chris S]

I assume it wasn't easy to stick to the diet during the ride? Did you just not worry and make a decision to abandon the diet for the duration of the ride and pick it up again when you got home?

We didn't even really try. Once you're riding for 24 hours you'll use every carb you swallow.

Ok. So that period would have naturally 'thrown you out of ketosis'

Maybe, maybe not. Cycling, amongst other forms of "vigorous" exercise is a massive Insulin sink - and a Keto diet is nothing if not one of Insulin management. I've measured my Ketone levels after a 200 and had a BHB level higher than my blood sugar, despite eating Crumble & Custard, en-route.

Conversely, eating high levels of carbs when there's nowhere for that energy to go will certainly kill ketosis.

The point of following a Keto diet "most of the time" is that you keep the necessary pathways open to running solely on ketones.

I think this is what folks refer to as "Metabolic Flexibility".

[thesloth]

Looks like Ian To will be keto for his LEJOG attempt:
https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/lands-end-john-o-groats-cycling-record-52241/

[Chris S]

...according to To, he can sustain 250W at a heart rate of just 115bpm

 

[mattc]

Looks like Ian To will be keto for his LEJOG attempt:
https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/lands-end-john-o-groats-cycling-record-52241/

So where does milk (or dilute milk in his case) fit into the Keto spectrum?

I assumed it had too much sugar in ... 

[simonp]

Both milk and sausages contain carbohydrates. You can be keto with more carb intake than the <40g / day when you are exercising a lot.

[Chinaski]

Looks like Ian To will be keto for his LEJOG attempt:
https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/lands-end-john-o-groats-cycling-record-52241/

So where does milk (or dilute milk in his case) fit into the Keto spectrum?

I assumed it had too much sugar in ... 

https://peterattiamd.com/ketones-carbohydrates-can-co-exist/

[mattc]

Looks like Ian To will be keto for his LEJOG attempt:
https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/lands-end-john-o-groats-cycling-record-52241/

So where does milk (or dilute milk in his case) fit into the Keto spectrum?

I assumed it had too much sugar in ... 

https://peterattiamd.com/ketones-carbohydrates-can-co-exist/

Find: milk - No matches found 

[Hedlund]

My suggestion is to avoid faddish fasts and stay with approved, science-based projects. If it's not too much trouble counsel with a proficient, solid nourishment or restorative expert before setting out on any fasting-like arrangement since this sort of healthful arrangement is plainly not for everybody, particularly those determined to have dietary problems, youngsters and those with uncommon therapeutic conditions.

[LEE]

I assume it wasn't easy to stick to the diet during the ride? Did you just not worry and make a decision to abandon the diet for the duration of the ride and pick it up again when you got home?

We didn't even really try. Once you're riding for 24 hours you'll use every carb you swallow.

Exactly this.

When you eat carbs the body releases Insulin to store unused carbs/sugars.  You only carry about 2,500kcals of carbs in your blood/liver as "easy access" fuel and, assuming you're burning about 500kcals an hour on an Audax, you'll struggle to eat (and metabolise) that many calories, at that rate, for 24 hours.  If the carbs are gone then one of two things can happen...you can Bonk..or your body will start burning fat reserves (ketosis).

Example - Unfit cyclists (see typical London-Brighton charity rider) are probably burning 800kcals an hour or more.  They aren't adapted to burn fat so they run-dry of carbs/sugars after 2-3 hours and bonk big-style.  That's probably about 40 miles into L2B.  A typical fat-adapted Audax rider wouldn't need to eat, or bonk, on a 50 mile ride in summer.

I think most Audaxers experience a slow, steady, improvement in the way they can metabolise body fat for fuel over time.  It may start off, in the first year, that you bonk badly during a 100mile/200k ride.  I know I did, and I was constantly hungry.  A life of carbs means you aren't "fat adapted".  It hurts when you try and access fat.  After a few years i could get round a 200k with a bowl of soup half way round.  I'm fairly sure I could do a summer 200km on water alone if I kept my heart rate down and didn't try to burn fat at impossible rates. (I specifically say Summer because cold weather and wind-chill makes huge calorie demands on your system).

Over time your body becomes adapted to burn fat as fuel, it's a natural state for most mammals, that's what fat is for, it's your energy reserve for lean times.

A ketogenic diet (or fasting) can train your body to switch to fat burning.  Some people find it extremely hard but, as an Audaxer, I think i was well conditioned for ketosis.

Ketones are a more efficient fuel for your brain, that's why people experience a clarity of thought in ketosis.  It's assumed that ketosis is evolution's way of making you more efficient at locating your next meal.  You think better, you move better, you catch Antelopes better.  Why would evolution make you worse at catching Antelopes when you were hungry?

So Ketosis isn't a fad, it's a natural state for us to be in.  Think what our eating patterns were when we all lived on the plains of Africa, as hunter-gathers.  Hungry...hungry...hungry...hungry... ANTELOPE FOR DINNER!!!!

[LMT]

I assume it wasn't easy to stick to the diet during the ride? Did you just not worry and make a decision to abandon the diet for the duration of the ride and pick it up again when you got home?

We didn't even really try. Once you're riding for 24 hours you'll use every carb you swallow.

.....A ketogenic diet (or fasting) can train your body to switch to fat burning.  Some people find it extremely hard but, as an Audaxer, I think i was well conditioned for ketosis.

Ketones are a more efficient fuel for your brain, that's why people experience a clarity of thought in ketosis.  It's assumed that ketosis is evolution's way of making you more efficient at locating your next meal.  You think better, you move better, you catch Antelopes better.  Why would evolution make you worse at catching Antelopes when you were hungry?

So Ketosis isn't a fad, it's a natural state for us to be in.  Think what our eating patterns were when we all lived on the plains of Africa, as hunter-gathers.  Hungry...hungry...hungry...hungry... ANTELOPE FOR DINNER!!!!

I'm by no means on a keto diet but am fat adapted on a bike ride, longish days spent on a trainer putting out a low endurance power with just water will soon get you fat adapted - you don't need to go into ketosis.

And ketosis is a fad, a diet originally meant to treat epilepsy, it's now Atkins remarketed and rebranded and resold to fools who follow the marketing garb which beings me nicely to my next point:-

We are not hunter gathers, we are not on the plains of Africa, you buy your Elk pre-packed in a supermarket so knock the appeal to nature bullshit on the head eh? You are aware that the hunter gatherers from back in the day only lived until their late 30's (on average).

[Manotea]

Once I had a farm was a hunter-gather in Africa....

[LEE]

I assume it wasn't easy to stick to the diet during the ride? Did you just not worry and make a decision to abandon the diet for the duration of the ride and pick it up again when you got home?

We didn't even really try. Once you're riding for 24 hours you'll use every carb you swallow.

.....A ketogenic diet (or fasting) can train your body to switch to fat burning.  Some people find it extremely hard but, as an Audaxer, I think i was well conditioned for ketosis.

Ketones are a more efficient fuel for your brain, that's why people experience a clarity of thought in ketosis.  It's assumed that ketosis is evolution's way of making you more efficient at locating your next meal.  You think better, you move better, you catch Antelopes better.  Why would evolution make you worse at catching Antelopes when you were hungry?

So Ketosis isn't a fad, it's a natural state for us to be in.  Think what our eating patterns were when we all lived on the plains of Africa, as hunter-gathers.  Hungry...hungry...hungry...hungry... ANTELOPE FOR DINNER!!!!

I'm by no means on a keto diet but am fat adapted on a bike ride, longish days spent on a trainer putting out a low endurance power with just water will soon get you fat adapted - you don't need to go into ketosis.

And ketosis is a fad, a diet originally meant to treat epilepsy, it's now Atkins remarketed and rebranded and resold to fools who follow the marketing garb which beings me nicely to my next point:-

We are not hunter gathers, we are not on the plains of Africa, you buy your Elk pre-packed in a supermarket so knock the appeal to nature bullshit on the head eh? You are aware that the hunter gatherers from back in the day only lived until their late 30's (on average).

Ketosis is basically "running on fat" so, on very long rides, you may find yourself in Ketosis whether you want to be in it or not.  It's a physiological condition not a lifestyle choice.

I assumed people died young back then but for a variety of reasons, including Lions, starvation, disease....... but mainly disease I think (as millions of poor Africans still do).

I'm not appealing to nature bullshitting.  I'm saying that our supermarket habits have led us down an easy path to carb-overload, type-2 diabetes and obesity.   We evolved over millions of years to efficiently store and subsequently burn fat reserves (Ketosis) but we've out-accelerated a million years of evolution in about 200 years to the point that all we do is store fat and never access it again.

Here's the problem.  We actually still are hunter-gatherers.  It just got way too easy to gather.

[campagman]

You are aware that the hunter gatherers from back in the day only lived until their late 30's (on average).

That age is low because there were a lot of deaths at birth which will bring the average down.

[Manotea]

I'm saying that our supermarket habits have led us down an easy path to carb-overload, type-2 diabetes and obesity.

Thats what I'm sold on. Basically, everything we've been told about nutrition over the last forty years or so has been wrong, driven by commercial interests (and that includes the weightloss industry).

One of the attractions of the Keto diet for me is that there is no commercial edge. In fact a very large part of the message is dump the junk and eat real and readily available food stuffs.

In fact it's a bit like riding fixed, which similarly offers an immediate release from the spiraling costs associated with modern fashions in bikes. My current steed dates from circa 1990...

[LEE]

I'm saying that our supermarket habits have led us down an easy path to carb-overload, type-2 diabetes and obesity.

Thats what I'm sold on. Basically, everything we've been told about nutrition over the last forty years or so has been wrong, driven by commercial interests (and that includes the weightloss industry).

One of the attractions of the Keto diet is that there is no real commercial edge. In fact a very large part of the message is dump the junk and eat real and readily available food stuffs.

In fact it's a bit like riding fixed. It's an immediate release from the spiraling costs associated with modern fashions in bikes. My current steed dates from circa 1990...

Intermittent Fasting scares thew shit out of the food industry.  Apart from a million books on the subject there's no money in people not eating food.

[ian]

I'm saying that our supermarket habits have led us down an easy path to carb-overload, type-2 diabetes and obesity.

Thats what I'm sold on. Basically, everything we've been told about nutrition over the last forty years or so has been wrong, driven by commercial interests (and that includes the weightloss industry).

One of the attractions of the Keto diet for me is that there is no commercial edge. In fact a very large part of the message is dump the junk and eat real and readily available food stuffs.

In fact it's a bit like riding fixed, which similarly offers an immediate release from the spiraling costs associated with modern fashions in bikes. My current steed dates from circa 1990...

Erm, if you've been to a shop recently you might have noticed that keto/low carb etc. is a hugely commercial proposition. Not to mention the books, blogs, and numerous other cash-ins. It's big money.

Advertising and availability have convinced people to eat too much crap food, that's true. Dietetic and nutritional advice has been consistent: eat a balanced diet, eat your greens, avoid processed food, watch your portion size, and do plenty of exercise. Sadly there's no money or commercial edge in that. No diet or fad that can be packaged up. No dubious and cherry-picked science. No zingy advertising. It's dull, sensible, works, and is probably the easiest 'diet' to adhere to.

[Von Broad]

In fact a very large part of the message is dump the junk and eat real and readily available food stuffs.

A lot of folk on plant-based diets would very much concur with that sentiment too of course [at least the ones on Leftpondian You Tube I've been listening too this week ] but they just choose to eat different 'real and readily available food stuffs'.

I'm very much on the terraces with this one, but a fascinating game it most definitely is Brian.

[LMT]

I assume it wasn't easy to stick to the diet during the ride? Did you just not worry and make a decision to abandon the diet for the duration of the ride and pick it up again when you got home?

We didn't even really try. Once you're riding for 24 hours you'll use every carb you swallow.

.....A ketogenic diet (or fasting) can train your body to switch to fat burning.  Some people find it extremely hard but, as an Audaxer, I think i was well conditioned for ketosis.

Ketones are a more efficient fuel for your brain, that's why people experience a clarity of thought in ketosis.  It's assumed that ketosis is evolution's way of making you more efficient at locating your next meal.  You think better, you move better, you catch Antelopes better.  Why would evolution make you worse at catching Antelopes when you were hungry?

So Ketosis isn't a fad, it's a natural state for us to be in.  Think what our eating patterns were when we all lived on the plains of Africa, as hunter-gathers.  Hungry...hungry...hungry...hungry... ANTELOPE FOR DINNER!!!!

I'm by no means on a keto diet but am fat adapted on a bike ride, longish days spent on a trainer putting out a low endurance power with just water will soon get you fat adapted - you don't need to go into ketosis.

And ketosis is a fad, a diet originally meant to treat epilepsy, it's now Atkins remarketed and rebranded and resold to fools who follow the marketing garb which beings me nicely to my next point:-

We are not hunter gathers, we are not on the plains of Africa, you buy your Elk pre-packed in a supermarket so knock the appeal to nature bullshit on the head eh? You are aware that the hunter gatherers from back in the day only lived until their late 30's (on average).

Ketosis is basically "running on fat" so, on very long rides, you may find yourself in Ketosis whether you want to be in it or not.  It's a physiological condition not a lifestyle choice.

I assumed people died young back then but for a variety of reasons, including Lions, starvation, disease....... but mainly disease I think (as millions of poor Africans still do).

I'm not appealing to nature bullshitting.  I'm saying that our supermarket habits have led us down an easy path to carb-overload, type-2 diabetes and obesity.   We evolved over millions of years to efficiently store and subsequently burn fat reserves (Ketosis) but we've out-accelerated a million years of evolution in about 200 years to the point that all we do is store fat and never access it again.

Here's the problem.  We actually still are hunter-gatherers.  It just got way too easy to gather.

I believe there's a little but more to Ketosis than just basically 'running on fat'. On a long bike ride, burning fat is not ketosis and never will be.

And you are appealing to nature, qualifying a lifestyle/diet because this is what our ancestors done is appeal to nature.

And diabetes and obesisity is due more to saturated fat then carbs. Reserch has shown that insulin spikes more from white mash with a tuna steak then the white mash on it's own -which is due to saturated fat which increases insulin resistence hence more insulin is induced which can lead to diabetes. I can overload on bananas all I want, I doubt I'll be getting type II any time soon becuase of the amount of dietary fiber that I also get.

And we have evolved over millions of years to eat a plant based diet, our physiology points to this with our hands and fingers, teeth, jaw struture, gut length and gut microbe. You eat antelope because of the taste- not because you actually need it.

[LMT]

I'm saying that our supermarket habits have led us down an easy path to carb-overload, type-2 diabetes and obesity.

Thats what I'm sold on. Basically, everything we've been told about nutrition over the last forty years or so has been wrong, driven by commercial interests (and that includes the weightloss industry).

One of the attractions of the Keto diet is that there is no real commercial edge. In fact a very large part of the message is dump the junk and eat real and readily available food stuffs.

In fact it's a bit like riding fixed. It's an immediate release from the spiraling costs associated with modern fashions in bikes. My current steed dates from circa 1990...

Intermittent Fasting scares thew shit out of the food industry.  Apart from a million books on the subject there's no money in people not eating food.

  I'll bet, the medical profession love it though.