Brakes and levers

[Pedaldog.]

I know that drop handlebars and V-Brakes aren't a goer without the travel agent or a V-brake specific lever. I'm trying ot make decisions using stuff I have or will have soon.

V-Brake levers and Canti brakes. Would that work well or not? Would the problem be reversed and too much pull  movement on the levers for cantis?

[mark]

I accidentally tried that when I changed the front brake on my tourer to a V-brake, installed Cane Creek Drop-V levers, and didn't have the cash to buy a new rear brake so I left the rear cantilever brakes on. The rear brake has no modulation and locks very readily, although the front brake works beautifully and stops the bike VERY quickly and modulates nicely. When I overhaul the tourer this winter, I will leave the V-brake compatible lever for the front brake on, but I will replace the lever for the rear brake with a conventional lever that I have lying around.

[Pedaldog.]

Thanks for that. It is going to be a slow build up as I can't afford to shell out for many parts at once. I reckon I'll probably buy a set of V-brakes if I do it as Flat or Butterfly bars, stick to the Canti's if I use drop bars.

[sletti]

Cantilever brakes are more than adequate to stop a heavily laden touring bike down an alpine descent, or stop a cyclocross nutter from leaving an impression of his face in a tree, so they'll do whatever you throw at them. V-Brakes clamp a rim better for sure, but that is only if you have a big fat nobble mountain bike tyre. If you have skinny  road wheels then it does not really have an advantage.

Cantis are an underrated brake, largely squeezed out of the domestic bike world by fashion, much in the same way that discs are doing so now.

[Biggsy]

One interesting thing about cantis: you can adjust the mechanical advantage somewhat by altering the cable arrangement.  There was/is an article on www.sheldonbrown.com explaining how-to in detail, though I can't find it now.

Personally I prefer the simplicity of dual-pivot calipers, when clearance isn't a problem.

[sletti]

Personally I prefer the simplicity of dual-pivot calipers, when clearance isn't a problem.

Are dual pivot brakes quantifiably better than single pivot calipers? I have a set of Dura Ace 7400 single pivot brakes (circa 1985), and they have done untold miles racing, touring, hacking about in the snow and ice, and 26 years later they can still grip the rims better than my tyres can grip the road. I'm not trying to be contentious, I just wonder if the move to dual pivot brakes was yet again another marketing opportunity.

[Kevina9]

Sheldon's info seems to have been rearranged.
Try this:
Adjusting Traditional Center Pull Cantilever Bicycle Brakes
And for the theory:
The Geometry of Cantilever Brakes
The latter is probably the one Biggsy was looking for.

[mrcharly-YHT]

Personally I prefer the simplicity of dual-pivot calipers, when clearance isn't a problem.

Are dual pivot brakes quantifiably better than single pivot calipers? I have a set of Dura Ace 7400 single pivot brakes (circa 1985), and they have done untold miles racing, touring, hacking about in the snow and ice, and 26 years later they can still grip the rims better than my tyres can grip the road. I'm not trying to be contentious, I just wonder if the move to dual pivot brakes was yet again another marketing opportunity.

They are an unbelievable amount better for force. Not so easy to maintain - you have two pivot points to look after. Truly terrific by comparison.

[Biggsy]

Are dual pivot brakes quantifiably better than single pivot calipers?

Yes, there is a real substantial difference in mechanical advantage.  This can be measured and proven, because it's simply down to leverage and the laws of physics.

It means that you can brake harder without having to pull/push the lever harder.  You just have to move it a little further (because of course you can't get something for nothing).  This particularly helps when braking from the "hood" position, when it's difficult to apply a lot of force.

The limiting factor to braking for me on a light road bike on clean dry tarmac in a straight line is the amount of deceleration possible without going heels over head, rather than tyre adhesion.  I can comfortably achieve this limit with a dual-pivot front brake.  I can't with a single-pivot without hurting my hand.  You might have stronger hands?

Dual-pivot is not so important for a rear brake, hence Campagnolo's sensible option of dual-pivot front and single-pivot rear.

SPs are lighter and can cope better with a buckled wheel, and don't lock-up a rear wheel too easily.  DP also has the advantage of better centering, though.

[sletti]

Are dual pivot brakes quantifiably better than single pivot calipers?

Yes, there is a real substantial difference in mechanical advantage.  This can be measured and proven, because it's simply down to leverage and the laws of physics.

It means that you can brake harder without having to pull/push the lever harder.  You just have to move it a little further (because of course you can't get something for nothing).  This particularly helps when braking from the "hood" position, when it's difficult to apply a lot of force.

The limiting factor to braking for me on a light road bike on clean dry tarmac in a straight line is the amount of deceleration possible without going heels over head, rather than tyre adhesion.  I can comfortably achieve this limit with a dual-pivot front brake.  I can't with a single-pivot without hurting my hand.  You might have stronger hands?

Dual-pivot is not so important for a rear brake, hence Campagnolo's sensible option of dual-pivot front and single-pivot rear.

SPs are lighter and can cope better with a buckled wheel, and don't lock-up a rear wheel too easily.  DP also has the advantage of better centering, though.

Well, you live and learn.

I have DP 7800 on my other road bike and I must admit I had not perceived much difference in braking force, but I had not considered that on the DP I wasn't squeezing as hard. Mind you, the 7400 was a damn well built caliper, so it was probably the best of what is achievable with an SP brake. Being a bass guitar player, I probably do have slightly stronger hands.

Interesting that Campag have DP on the front and SP on the rear. I'm surprised that they would have two sets of tooling, but it is a consummate engineers solution.

Still, it does raise a thought. I have one bike with Dura Ace single pivot brakes, and one with Dura Ace dual pivot. All I need is a couple of new centre shaft bolts and both bikes can have DP up front and SP out back. Mrs sletti is gonna lose me to the garage this weekend, methinks.

[Biggsy]

I find differences in rim and brake block condition at any one time often outweighs any difference between one type of brake and another, so comparisons aren't always "like for like".

It's only the higher Campag models that have DP front + SP rear.  Perhaps the lesser amount of material needed for an SP makes up for the extra tooling costs.

[Efrogwr]

The desirability of bicycle jewellery means that Campagnolo doesn't need to worry about tooling costs.

[Pedaldog.]

The Brakes I have are Suntour XCSE canti's. I don't understand the single/dual pivot thing but these have the cable across the top as a centgre pull arrangement. I know they were fine when I used this model on my Old Thorn Nomads with drop bars but I am considering not using drops and having V-brake levers to operate the brakes.  Would I risk Locking up with that set up and, if so, what other levers could I use for the Canti's on flat or Butterfly batrs?

[mrcharly-YHT]

AFAIK, V-brake levers pull lots of cable - so if you use them with old-school cantis, your brakes will be weak - less mechanical advantage at the brake, you see.

So you shouldn't lock up, but you might not have very powerful brakes.

[Efrogwr]

V brake levers will not pull the cable far enough to work cantilevers properly. There are flat bar levers (for hybrid bikes) that work sidepulls. They might do the job. Some levers are sold as suitable for cantilevers andVs. They have a choice of mounting points for the cable; neare to the bar for Vs, a bit further out for cantilevers.

Edited after reading mrchaly's post;
 a customers bike came with V levers and cantis. The brakes barely worked on the flat. He's a big lad. not a good combination in Wales. In this case, the brakes were a joke; low-leverage imitaytions of the Marinovative brake of the Early 90s. Therefore, I changed the brakes.  A good brake, like the XCSE, is worth keeping, especially for Pedaldog, who'll need new levers anyway.

[greenmeansgo]

I have some Tektro V-brake levers for drop bars, used with V-brake/ MTB disc brake. They work fine, but don't have as light an action as similar Tektro levers I had with dual pivot road calipers.

Just to throw that into the mix for your consideration as they're fairly cheap.

V brakes are easier to set up. Cantis can work very well, but are more faff. Both suffer from the issue that they're basically made for mountain bikes where you have a barrel adjuster on the lever, which you don't have with drop bar levers. Just don't mix and match V/canti levers/ brakes.

[Kevina9]

FYI it is not too spendy to fit V-brakes with barrel adjusters on the noodle.

Similarly you can get canti cable hangers with adjustment.

Or you could just add cross-top / interrupter levers to your drop bars - most have a barrel adjuster.

[sletti]

The Brakes I have are Suntour XCSE canti's. I don't understand the single/dual pivot thing but these have the cable across the top as a centgre pull arrangement. I know they were fine when I used this model on my Old Thorn Nomads with drop bars but I am considering not using drops and having V-brake levers to operate the brakes.  Would I risk Locking up with that set up and, if so, what other levers could I use for the Canti's on flat or Butterfly batrs?

The single/dual pivot was nothing to do with your question, just a bit of off-topic chat.

[greenmeansgo]

FYI it is not too spendy to fit V-brakes with barrel adjusters on the noodle.

I have something similar to get round the problem, but thanks for the link. I didn't know there was a purpose built solution!

Or you could just add cross-top / interrupter levers to your drop bars - most have a barrel adjuster.

I personally hate those interrupter levers - let water in to corrode your cables and generally clutter up the bars leaving little room for lights etc.

[Kevina9]

Just pointing out some of the available options - each to their own!  I personally like them.  Thanks for the tip on corrosion - I will keep an eye out for that.  On my bikes it is the bar bag and mount that prevent me putting lights on the bars, so they are mounted elsewhere, and as I have no lights on the bars, there is plenty of space for the cross-tops! 

[Pedaldog.]

Thanks for the info' and opinions. I am going to do some thinking about which bars, brakes and shifters I am going ot use on which bike. I think the one I was specifically asking about is likely to get a new set of V-brakes and put the suntours on a different bike.

[MacB]

FYI it is not too spendy to fit V-brakes with barrel adjusters on the noodle.

Agreed and it's even less spendy if someone still has an unused set from previous experimentation he found last night while tidying up.

Pedaldog, they are yours if you want them, otherwise free to anyone else that may have a need.

[Pedaldog.]

Cheers Mac I'd love to take them off your hands

Do you have the address still?  I'll bung you a few bob for the postage at least.

Thanks.

[MacB]

Cheers Mac I'd love to take them off your hands

Do you have the address still?  I'll bung you a few bob for the postage at least.

Thanks.

I have and no need, they'll fit in an envelope and, if you can't/don't use them then bung them on to someone else at another time. They will function as a normal noodle anyway.....cheers.....Al

I'll get one of the boys to post them tomorrow morning

[drossall]

Are dual pivot brakes quantifiably better than single pivot calipers? I have a set of Dura Ace 7400 single pivot brakes (circa 1985)...

I've replaced some c1980 Mark II Dura Ace brakes with Shimano dual pivots. Very considerable improvement.

Which is odd because I bought the DAs almost new, and fitted them in place of some shallow-drop Universals. The first time I tried the DAs, I nearly went over the bars. By the time I replaced them, I lacked confidence in them by comparison with dual pivots.