Super-Twat

[chrisbainbridge]

She retains her corporate roles with Morrisons and Dunelm. She also remains a member of the Church of England’s ethical investment advisory group.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes, Reverend?

Dunelm and Morrisons have cut ties and she has stepped back from church duties. Her bishop is the son of a sub-postmaster!

[Polar Bear]

My question is, when and if she and the rest of the PO execs will face charges for this huge miscarriage of justice which they drove hundreds of cases through on the back of?   Lives have been destroyed by these mega twats and they just "step back".  It ain't good enough.

[ian]

I really don't understand how their accounting practices were so poor that they accused people of stealing money that patently did not exist. What sort of business were they running?

And some blame should accrue to the police and CPS, whose credulity seems almost criminal in itself.

[hatler]

And Fujitsu ?

[ian]

All software has defects, no one should simply accept that it works. So it should never be entirely relied on. But yes, it was unfit for purpose.

From reading about this, it's utterly shocking, and more so because it makes no sense, I mean really, what really are the odds that several hundred post officer operators were all stealing at the same time? Absolutely no one sat back and thought, erm, that looks a teensy bit unlikely.

[Regulator]

As well as relying on software, they reduced the level of on the spot audit being done - to cut costs.   I worked in a sub-Post Office when I was younger.  We knew that at any time the Post Office auditors could walk through the door and demand to go through the books, cash, etc.  We would balance to the penny at the end of each day.

As I understand it, when the computer system started suggesting there were issues, some audits were done - which gave the 'wrong' answer (i.e. that the software was wrong) - so they were stopped.

[ian]

Even as a youngster serving a part-time sentence at the Coop, you had to be able to tally up the actual money (I know, because I was the moderate trustworthy muggins who did the counting, admittedly under the manager's supervision as it was far more money that I'd ever seen).

It used to be a semi-regular thing for a shopper to claim that they'd given a larger note and got the wrong change, which meant I had to go sit in a room and count everything from the till. Quite a few of those shoppers were chancing it.

[Beardy]

I’m never anything but amazed when I think of one of my childhood jobs. As a 13/14 yo I used to collect money from customers for a milkman. I used to go door to door with a money satchel and book demanding payment. I’ve never considered just how much money I had by the end of the evening, but it must have been in excess of £200 which in the 70s was a significant sum. Hat it never occurred to me that there was any risk to a 14yo walking the streets at night with that amount o money probably says more about where I grew up than anything else.

[Polar Bear]

The big mistake by those making the decisions was to decide that the computer must be right in spite of the increasing number of cases.  I find it impossible to believe that the reg flags were not being battered by force 10 storms and surely somebody was saying that we might just have made a huge mistake here?

It is the job of the board to be accountable for the business and they are paid hugely to compensate for that.  As a result, if they proved incapable of good practice due to whatever reason the responsibility should fall squarely upon their shoulders.  They have lived off the fat of their lack of capability to do the proper job for a very long time indeed.

[Beardy]

The big mistake by those making the decisions was to decide that the computer must be right in spite of the increasing number of cases.  I find it impossible to believe that the reg flags were not being battered by force 10 storms and surely somebody was saying that we might just have made a huge mistake here?

Of course, once they realise they’ve made one huge mistake, they can either own up or double down. With bonuses at stake it’s easy to see why they chose as the did

It is the job of the board to be accountable for the business and they are paid hugely to compensate for that.  As a result, if they proved incapable of good practice due to whatever reason the responsibility should fall squarely upon their shoulders.  They have lived off the fat of their lack of capability to do the proper job for a very long time indeed.

The reason given for the huge salary’s received by the board members is that they are accountable. I can’t think of any situation where any board member has not been paid off handsomely once they have been caught out. Those are just the rules of that particular club (no, you and I can’t join)

[ian]

That's the problem with executive pay, they claim it's to compensate for the responsibility, but curiously they're never actually responsible for anything that happens under their leadership, and when the shit hits the fan, they get a pay-off anyway and move to a similar executive role elsewhere. Rinse and repeat.

[citoyen]

when the shit hits the fan, they get a pay-off anyway and move to a similar executive role elsewhere.

Not always 'elsewhere' - my all-time favourite example was when Connex had their rail franchise stripped from them for financial mismanagement, and were replaced with South Eastern, newly created by the SRA. And who do you think the SRA appointed to run South Eastern? Why, all the same senior management who had fucked up so badly at Connex. The rationale being that they were the people with the most experience at operating the business. 

[chrisbainbridge]

But really what has she done wrong?  The Prime Minister can lie in every job he has ever had, be complicit in the beating of a reporter, lie to the whole electorate about money for the NHS, lie to NI about a border, lie to the country about PPE procurement, lie to the London assembly about his relationships with at least 2 women, lie about the money to renovate his flat.  His colleagues can bully to their hearts content after quite disgraceful actions in Israel. Contracts for emergency supplies are given out to your best mate irrespective of his skills, and so it gods on.  Compared to that and the 127,000 people dead she really did quite well.

We live in the most amazing times where honesty in public office is not only unnecessary but unwanted.

[grams]

I really don't understand how their accounting practices were so poor that they accused people of stealing money that patently did not exist. What sort of business were they running?

AIUI the system would routinely lose transaction records, so e.g. when a customer withdraws a big chunk of cash from their Giro/pension/whatever, the money would be gone from the cash drawer but there'd be no record of it on the system, so the numbers wouldn't add up at the end of the day and the only conclusion is the postmaster pocketed it.

Also people at Fujitsu knew this was happening and would sometimes try to add the missing records, but they did it by hacking the database directly, which meant there was no audit trail and it could lead to other totals no longer matching, which was yet more proof the postmasters were up to something.

[rafletcher]

An interesting (FCVOI of course) adjuct to this. Recently my wife paid £150 cash into our (First Direct) bank account at the local sub-PO.  It failed to appear in the account for a several of days. On checking the receipt she'd been given, it showed a zero value. She went back with the receipt, and asked them to check. The person there (not the same individual as took the payment) said they'd check the CCTV and get back to her. She'd barely walked home (some 20 minutes) when they called and asked her to return, and they'd sort it out.  All she had to do was present a debit card related to the account, and they repeated the transaction.  The money was in the account in minutes. No suggestion of impropriety but an indication of what can be doen these days.

[rogerzilla]

Boris, for (a) saying he didn't care if the bodies piled up, if it would avoid a third lockdown and (b) for not making The Mekon sign an NDA before he was sacked by Princess Nut Nut Boris.  Unless The Mekon left without any payoff, which seems unlikely.

[Regulator]

Boris, for (a) saying he didn't care if the bodies piled up, if it would avoid a third lockdown and (b) for not making The Mekon sign an NDA before he was sacked by Princess Nut Nut Boris.  Unless The Mekon left without any payoff, which seems unlikely.

NDAs can no longer be used stop 'whistleblowing' disclosures made in the public interest.  So even if Baron von Jizzmark had signed one, they'd be hard pressed to say the disclosures weren't in the public interest...

[Steph]

Lubefroth speaks again
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/politics/rick-santorum-lambasted-over-comments-seemingly-erasing-native-americans-from-history/ar-BB1g4GXJ?ocid=msedgntp

[rogerzilla]

Lubefroth speaks again
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/politics/rick-santorum-lambasted-over-comments-seemingly-erasing-native-americans-from-history/ar-BB1g4GXJ?ocid=msedgntp

"Birthed a nation" is as loaded a phrase as "final solution".

[orraloon]

An interesting (FCVOI of course) adjuct to this. Recently my wife paid £150 cash into our (First Direct) bank account at the local sub-PO.  It failed to appear in the account for a several of days. On checking the receipt she'd been given, it showed a zero value. She went back with the receipt, and asked them to check. The person there (not the same individual as took the payment) said they'd check the CCTV and get back to her. She'd barely walked home (some 20 minutes) when they called and asked her to return, and they'd sort it out.  All she had to do was present a debit card related to the account, and they repeated the transaction.  The money was in the account in minutes. No suggestion of impropriety but an indication of what can be doen these days.

FYI.  The FirstDirect app allows you to photo a cheque and submit it to your account, without the need to leave your chair let alone wander to a Post Office.  I received a cheque, how retro, a few months ago and used the app to process.  Worked fine.

[rafletcher]

An interesting (FCVOI of course) adjuct to this. Recently my wife paid £150 cash into our (First Direct) bank account at the local sub-PO.  It failed to appear in the account for a several of days. On checking the receipt she'd been given, it showed a zero value. She went back with the receipt, and asked them to check. The person there (not the same individual as took the payment) said they'd check the CCTV and get back to her. She'd barely walked home (some 20 minutes) when they called and asked her to return, and they'd sort it out.  All she had to do was present a debit card related to the account, and they repeated the transaction.  The money was in the account in minutes. No suggestion of impropriety but an indication of what can be doen these days.

FYI.  The FirstDirect app allows you to photo a cheque and submit it to your account, without the need to leave your chair let alone wander to a Post Office.  I received a cheque, how retro, a few months ago and used the app to process.  Worked fine.

Yep, I know that, but I’d been paid in cash for a set of (car) wheels I sold 👍

[orraloon]

An interesting (FCVOI of course) adjuct to this. Recently my wife paid £150 cash into our (First Direct) bank account at the local sub-PO.  It failed to appear in the account for a several of days. On checking the receipt she'd been given, it showed a zero value. She went back with the receipt, and asked them to check. The person there (not the same individual as took the payment) said they'd check the CCTV and get back to her. She'd barely walked home (some 20 minutes) when they called and asked her to return, and they'd sort it out.  All she had to do was present a debit card related to the account, and they repeated the transaction.  The money was in the account in minutes. No suggestion of impropriety but an indication of what can be doen these days.

FYI.  The FirstDirect app allows you to photo a cheque and submit it to your account, without the need to leave your chair let alone wander to a Post Office.  I received a cheque, how retro, a few months ago and used the app to process.  Worked fine.

Yep, I know that, but I’d been paid in cash for a set of (car) wheels I sold 👍

Ah, silly me, didn't read it properly and must have remembered my past tedious experiences involving cheques and post offices.  Oh well.

[hellymedic]

I really don't understand how their accounting practices were so poor that they accused people of stealing money that patently did not exist. What sort of business were they running?
And some blame should accrue to the police and CPS, whose credulity seems almost criminal in itself.

My understanding is that the PO largely bypassed the Police and CPS and were mostly able to prosecute without their their input.

[chrisbainbridge]

I really don't understand how their accounting practices were so poor that they accused people of stealing money that patently did not exist. What sort of business were they running?
And some blame should accrue to the police and CPS, whose credulity seems almost criminal in itself.

My understanding is that the PO largely bypassed the Police and CPS and were mostly able to prosecute without their their input.

I think they went for civil penalties rather than criminal.  I judge no jury and lower burden of proof.  Clearly suggests that they knew what they were doing.  Seems the missing money probably ended up in secret accounts in PO head office as well.

[Regulator]

I really don't understand how their accounting practices were so poor that they accused people of stealing money that patently did not exist. What sort of business were they running?
And some blame should accrue to the police and CPS, whose credulity seems almost criminal in itself.

My understanding is that the PO largely bypassed the Police and CPS and were mostly able to prosecute without their their input.

I think they went for civil penalties rather than criminal.  I judge no jury and lower burden of proof.  Clearly suggests that they knew what they were doing.  Seems the missing money probably ended up in secret accounts in PO head office as well.

No - they were criminal prosecutions.  People were jailed. 

Also, the burden of proof in civil and criminal cases is the same.  It’s the quantum that may vary, albeit not as much as people may think, depending on what is alleged and the potential outcomes.