The Dambusters Remake - Doggy Dilemma

[mrcharly-YHT]

I haven't forgiven him for shredding the character of Faramir. ffs, was there anything more pointless?

[citoyen]

I can't bear to think what a disaster a Hollywood remake will be like. Like Cunobelin says, it'll turn out that the Americans were the masterminds behind the whole thing. I love the original film and I don't feel any need for a remake.

In fairness, with Peter Jackson directing, there's half a chance that it won't be a complete disaster. It's probably best not to imagine the results if Jerry Bruckheimer or worse, Roland Emmerich were at the helm. And thank your lucky stars that Mel Gibson had dropped the rights to the film.

And Stephen Fry is writing the screenplay...

But getting back to the subject - I've been watching The Wire a lot recently so I'm rather desensitized to the N-word. So I feel can't help feeling that it's just a word and there's no need to get upset by it - yes, it has highly offensive connotations but those connotations are entirely dependent on the context. And in this context, ie cited as a historical artefact (the name of a dog and the codeword for a military operation), the word is entirely divorced from its offensive connotations. So I don't see any need to change the word for that reason.

On the other hand, in this context, it is just a word - a meaningless token with no semantic importance. Changing the name of both the dog and the operation to Fido wouldn't make the slightest jot of difference to the film-makers' ability to tell the story. It's a Hollywood film, not a historically accurate documentary.

To sum up... it really doesn't matter either way.

d.

[TimC]

...... It's a Hollywood film, not a historically accurate documentary.

To sum up... it really doesn't matter either way.

d.

Well, actually it does matter if the film is intended to be taken seriously as documentation of the sequence of events leading up to and including the Dams Raid. If it's to be a drama loosely based on those events, it doesn't matter a jot. But that's not the impression the makers give. They note that several details previously unable to be included in the story due to 50-year secrecy classifications make this film significantly more complete as a documentary than the original book or film. As such, I personally think it's important that details such as the dog's name are represented accurately - as you say, it's the context that gives the word its capacity to offend, not the juxtaposition of six letters. The dog and his name are intrinsically woven into the story - he was Gibson's companion and the Squadron mascot, and his name was the codeword for the operation's success. And, in a moment of classic melodrama, he's killed while his master is away on the mission.

I've read that the favoured alternative is 'Trigger'. If they go for an alternative, I'll be disappointed. But not surprised.

[Andrij]

I agree context plays a major role, but for a lot of people unless the word is said by a black person it is offensive - regardless of what the overall context is.  In the US it is at the point that a local council member (Washington DC?) ended up resigning because of the furore over his use of the word niggardly.  There is no etymological connection, but it sounds like ni**er so it must be 'bad'.

I have no problem with the remake retaining the dog's original name but I don't feel it would distract that much from the story to change it.  It's probably not worth the hassle to stick to the original.  It sucks, but that's life.

[LEE]

...though the correct spelling of his name is fairly relevant

I was referring to Bob Ghandi, our milkman.  An incredible life story.

Once again, I think the dog aspect of the film is so trivial that it can be left out.  It's not a "Lassie" film, it's about bombing German damns and trying to speed up the end of the war.  Tragic that the squadron mascot got killed but so what?

The codeword for the operation isn't important either.  Change it to "Geronimo".  it doesn't matter.

For all those that claim it should be as realistic as possible then I would say that the original film is probably full of propaganda and fact-bending.

Did it mention how little affect it had on the German war effort?  Did it mention the >1000 civilians & Russian POWs that were drowned and swept away?

I think the dog's name is irrelevant.  Leave it out or the film will be discussed for all the wong reasons (see this thread)

[clarion]

Ah.  OK.  Carry on

[Flying_Monkey]

Well, actually it does matter if the film is intended to be taken seriously as documentation of the sequence of events leading up to and including the Dams Raid.

Well, it's not is it? It's a film.

In any case, as someone who has a degree in history, I am aware that there are many historical details of which you (and indeed I and just about everyone here) will not be aware and would not notice if they were different: the colour of the chair that Character A sits on, the make of typewriter used by Character B, etc. These are all historical 'facts' but not being 100% accurate makes no difference to our understanding of the broader 'truth' of the events (if that's what you are interested in) - just as it wouldn't matter in a drama about the Shoah whether a particular character who dies was called Goldberg or Goldblum. In addition, there are too many 'facts' to put into a feature film or even a documentary - they are always selective and decisions have to be made about what is important or not. 

If it matters that the dog's name is the same as a codeword used, then so long as they are the same, it doesn't matter what they are. If the death of the dog is important, it still doesn't matter what the dog's name is. So, if it is going to detract from the main truth which you are trying to get across, we shouldn't be too hung up on minor facts.

It would be different if one of the main points was to bighlight the changing attitude to race in the RAF or in Britain generally - but it isn't, is it?

[clarion]

Errol Flynn liberated Burma.

[Really Ancien]

Anyone like to estimate how much the publicity generated might have been worth?
I'm like gutted that it ain't them Armstrong and Miller writing this, innit and shit, that'd be like well random and shit.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/lwNQf08Kxsw&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/lwNQf08Kxsw&rel=1</a>

Damon.

[Treewheeler]

I'm staying in China town here in San Fran.
 Standing outside the backpackers watching... just watching... bloody fascinating.
A group of Black fellas all blinged up were embracing each other outside a 'speakeasy'
I heard them refer to each other as 'dum nigger' and 'here's my nigger' and best of all 'FUCKING NIGGER'
 So maybe they just really don't give a shit and have long grown used to being known as niggers.
Is it just white fellas that really care about the 'N' word because from what I saw itseems to be perfectly acceptable to black fellas here at least.
 Personally I love the word 'WIGGER' to describe white youths trying to act the black gangster. 
 

[Phil]

What you ought to do, Tuggo, is to wander up to them and say 'What's up, my niggers?', and see how acceptable they think it is coming from you

[Psychler]

I've read that the favoured alternative is 'Trigger'. If they go for an alternative, I'll be disappointed. But not surprised.

...and perhaps they could change the name Guy Gibson to Roy Rogers

[rogerzilla]

Personally I love the word 'WIGGER' to describe white youths trying to act the black gangster. 
 

TBH, that's what a chav is.

[LEE]

<Blazing Saddles>

The dog's a Ni.....

</Blazing Saddles>

[Treewheeler]

What you ought to do, Tuggo, is to wander up to them and say 'What's up, my niggers?', and see how acceptable they think it is coming from you

Do you think the response may be along the lines of " I is gunna pop a cap in ya ass mother fucker..."?
 Any way... I wouldn't say 'my niggers' until a suitable price had been agreed on and the overseer had checked their teeth.

[Zoidburg]

Well, actually it does matter if the film is intended to be taken seriously as documentation of the sequence of events leading up to and including the Dams Raid.

Well, it's not is it? It's a film.

In any case, as someone who has a degree in history, I am aware that there are many historical details of which you (and indeed I and just about everyone here) will not be aware and would not notice if they were different: the colour of the chair that Character A sits on, the make of typewriter used by Character B, etc. These are all historical 'facts' but not being 100% accurate makes no difference to our understanding of the broader 'truth' of the events (if that's what you are interested in) - just as it wouldn't matter in a drama about the Shoah whether a particular character who dies was called Goldberg or Goldblum. In addition, there are too many 'facts' to put into a feature film or even a documentary - they are always selective and decisions have to be made about what is important or not. 

If it matters that the dog's name is the same as a codeword used, then so long as they are the same, it doesn't matter what they are. If the death of the dog is important, it still doesn't matter what the dog's name is. So, if it is going to detract from the main truth which you are trying to get across, we shouldn't be too hung up on minor facts.

It would be different if one of the main points was to bighlight the changing attitude to race in the RAF or in Britain generally - but it isn't, is it?

Would you deliberately remove reference to the dogs name from a written account as well?

[Jezza]

I'm staying in China town here in San Fran.
 Standing outside the backpackers watching... just watching... bloody fascinating.
A group of Black fellas all blinged up were embracing each other outside a 'speakeasy'
I heard them refer to each other as 'dum nigger' and 'here's my nigger' and best of all 'FUCKING NIGGER'
 So maybe they just really don't give a shit and have long grown used to being known as niggers.
Is it just white fellas that really care about the 'N' word because from what I saw itseems to be perfectly acceptable to black fellas here at least.
 Personally I love the word 'WIGGER' to describe white youths trying to act the black gangster. 
 

One of my best mates when I was living in Germany was a black American from Baltimore. Many of his friends were black ex-GIs, and as fellow English-speakers we 'hung out' together, as I believe they call it. They called each other 'nigger' all the time. But it wouldn't have felt right for me to start doing so. It wasn't that I have the PC terror of nice liberal Guardianistas squirming with terror at the prospect of being thought racist. I'm just not a member of that particular club, being white myself.

[Wowbagger]

Ah.  OK.  Carry on

Carry on Ghandi? I don't think I've seen that one. Did Kenneth Williams wear the loincloth?

[David Martin]

So, should a black laborador be called Blacky? What is wrong with those of a classical education calling it nigger? (Negra being black and the root of the word). I'd probably be minded to bear with the sensitivities though, and do a typically british thing..


Call the dog

(click to show/hide)

Chalky

[LEE]

Ah.  OK.  Carry on

Carry on Ghandi? I don't think I've seen that one. Did Kenneth Williams wear the loincloth?

 

Charels Hawtrey surely.

[Flying_Monkey]

Would you deliberately remove reference to the dogs name from a written account as well?

Why would my response be any different? I might from a novel, depending on what it was I was trying to say with the novel, and what I was trying to draw attention to - you know, artistic considerations. I wouldn't from a comprehensive work of history, but if it was a particular kind of history with more limited space, I might or might not depending on what the focus was - and there would be many other things subject to the same process of selection.

[Really Ancien]

Surely Guy Gibson would change the dogs name after reaching an accomodation with the fiery young African-American hot-shot pilot seconded to him from the 'Flying Tigers', the same one who provides the inter-racial love interest with Hedy Lamarr, who is following up her torpedo guidance research by helping Barnes Wallis develop the bouncing bomb. Get real you people.
Hedy Lamarr - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Damon.

[Zipperhead]

Surely Guy Gibson would change the dogs name after reaching an accomodation with the fiery young African-American hot-shot pilot seconded to him from the 'Flying Tigers',

Surely that would be seconded from the 332nd Fighter Group

[Really Ancien]

Surely that would be seconded from the 332nd Fighter Group

Whatever, the Flying Tigers had better jackets, I'm on to casting now.


Damon.

[clarion]

ITYM 99th Fighter Squadron (renamed post-July 1943 according to article; Dambusters raid 17/5/1943)