Group DIY Permanents

[CommuteTooFar]

Split from this topic: Denmead 200k DIY Perm - Sunday 19th July

If you do this you will miss the final ever Teifi Traveller.

In general it is wrong soliciting for company for a DIY Perm.  You are drawing people away from fully open, organised events.  Events require riders to keep going. Audax requires events to keep going. So by all means kill an event but do not complain when the infrastructure of the club you enjoy ceases to exist.

[Hummers]

If you do this you will miss the final ever Teifi Traveller.

In general it is wrong soliciting for company for a DIY Perm.  You are drawing people away from fully open, organised events.  Events require riders to keep going. Audax requires events to keep going. So by all means kill an event but do not complain when the infrastructure of the club you enjoy ceases to exist.
  

What a curious post but not the first time I have been rapped over the knuckles for soliciting (albeit not related to Audax riders though).

Let's take your post  at face value and assume it is not a wind up. In this cynical and self-serving world, maybe  you are trying to be helpul and are merely pointing out where I have made a grave breach of AUK etiquette. But I wonder, perhaps you are not aquainted as to where Denmead is in relation to the rest of Britain. Here, this should help you..

The Teifi Traveller you refer to starts 170 miles away from Denmead, near Tongwynlais, Cardiff, Wales and is a 400, isn't it? I can't see anyone who is either more local to the start of this ride or wants to take part in a classic AUK event being swayed to take part in a DIY Perm 200. Can you? Honestly?

I have checked this already but if you look at the AUK website (Cycling - Long Distance - Audax UK  - for your information) you will see there are other rides on that weekend that are nowhere near where I live but are closer to each other and the 'Teifi Traveller'. I will give you a heads up on the contact details as you will probably want to contact their organisers and put them straight too.

Let's see:

John Canon - there are four rides all starting from Hertford which by my reckoning is the same distance to Cardiff as I am.

Dave Sanders - another 4 rides all starting from West Buckland which is 100 miles closer to Cardiff than Denmead

Dave Harris - a 100 that starts at LLanelli which I think is actually in Wales, isn't it?

Judging by the fact that two of the above organisers are running up to 4 rides on the same day, I'd say that we are somewhat off the demise of AUK that you predict. Mind you, I am now mindful that I will get an email or PM from at least one of them (or perhaps even AUK themselves) asking me to stop drawing away would be entrants to their rides too.

The closest ride to me is the Ide Hill Grimpeur although I doubt I will tempt anyone taking part in this ride with a flattish 200 and it's a bit too far for me to go for a 100.

So let us look at the responses I have so far (let's call them 'the solicited'):

1. A rider who will only be joining us at the feed stop approx half-way around as they are recovering from a 300

2. Another rider who can't ride that weekend but even if he could, normally tends to stick to local events and does not normally enter rides >300k

3. Postie and myself who would not be up for 400 the week before LEL anyway

4. Errr.

5. That's it.

Hardly a legion of deserters from the Teifi Traveller or the rides that start > 100 miles away, are they?

As for  your comments regarding killing organised rides, if there was a New Forest, Denmead, Dave Hudson or Wessex ride that weekend I would be riding them as I actually prefer attending organised events more than I do riding Perms. Unfortunately, there are none. Perhaps it's all the Perms that are taking place that weekend? Who knows?

Back to the Teifi Traveller; it is sad to hear that Dave's ride is ending this year as given more spare time I'd like to do more rides in Wales. However, if the reason it is closing is due to poor attendance, I suggest the reason may lie closer to home than me asking for company on a basic event being run some 170 miles away.

Are you following the usual (400) route to Amesbury (Hursley / Bear & Ragged Staff / Porton Down) ?

I'll check but as your hatred of this stretch of road is shared with both Postie and me, I think the answer is 'no'.

Oh, hold on.

You weren't doing the Teifi Treveller were you? If so then the answer is 'yes'.

H

[LEE]

Are you following the usual (400) route to Amesbury (Hursley / Bear & Ragged Staff / Porton Down) ?

I'll check but as your hatred of this stretch of road is shared with both Postie and me, I think the answer is 'no'.

Oh, hold on.

You weren't doing the Teifi Treveller were you? If so then the answer is 'yes'.

H

Well, I was going to do the Teifi Treveller until I heard about your great DIY perm.

I also seem to remember those kids at Columbine High School going beserkcrazynuts with guns immediately after you publicised a Wednesday Evening Beer ride.  You need to be more careful H (Didn't one of your BBQ's clash with 9/11 ?)

CommutetooFar, I don't see any problem, in a free world, with someone asking for company on a DIY perm event. If a DIY perm "event" attracts people away from an event 170 miles away (or 1 mile away for that matter) then the organiser of the calendar event needs to look at what they are doing wrong.

There are many examples of YACFers 'advertising' perms, I thin kit's a great idea.


PS.  Hummers, I don't mind the regular route because I may join you around Hursley, ride to the Friar Tuck and make my way back from there.

[Danu]

H
to be fair this subject was brought up at a AGM, a couple of organisers did complain, well 1.
was planning to play 5 a side football at work ( lunch break ) but have cancelled it incase any professional side complains we are taking fans away.

[Hummers]

Come, come now everyone. Let us not throw stones at our dear friend Commutetoofar.

Let us enjoy the blissful irony of him hijacking my thread to tell me off about my soliciting riders from organised events whilst at the same time suggesting they enter someone else's ride in south Wales....  

....and move on.

For those who are interested in the ride of my OP, I will find out details from Postie on Wednesday night and put them up.

H

[CommuteTooFar]

I did not want to upset anyone. I do know where Denmead is. I do appreciate that it can be difficult to find a route that suits nearby every week.  Although I am a cheerleader for Cardiff Byways events this comment was really broader.  You mentioned West Buckland, excellent rides.  It used to be one of my away days.  Ride down to Bridgwater on Saturday, stay at my brothers house.  Ride down the A38 through Taunton and turn left and arrive at the Village hall. They used to run a different route every year.  Recently they seem to use the same route touching the North coast at Blue Anchor and the South coast at Seaton.  I rode slowly home from Bridgwater on Monday.  A splendid long weekend.

I should not be complaining. I hardly ride anything these days. Quite out of puff visiting various places on the British. At least I have more entries this year. Three was upsetting.

[Greenbank]

[Argh. 4th time I've written this. Once I accidentally closed the window, another time the laptop crashed, the 3rd time Leechblock kicked in and my words were lost...]

I wonder what effect RTTY is having on riding habits/plans?

I'm sure it has a positive effect during the winter months as it is encouraging more people to get out on the bike, but I'm not entirely sure that during the summer its effect is completely positive.

From a casual look through random people's ride lists (by looking at random membership numbers) it seems some (if not many) people are riding one event per month to keep an RTTY going.

The unanswerable question is whether they would be doing this without the RTTY to aim for. Would they ride the same number of events but concentrated over the summer months where there are more events.

If I get a chance I'll do an analysis of event numbers and popularity by month, looking back as far as the results go (2002) where RTTY was less popular or well known...

I know I've once entered an event I didn't really want to do, just to keep the RTTY going. Without the RTTY to worry about I would have entered a more local event that was on the following weekend (but just happened to be in the wrong month).

I've also not entered one event because I'd already planned to do another ride that month but this is more to do with having a finite number of weekend bike passes from Mrs G.

And I know some people have had to enter a late in the month DIY/Perm to keep an RTTY going due to change of plans or DNS/DNF in an earlier calendar event. Does this mean they end up not doing the local calendar event the next weekend?

I plan my rides long in advance, mainly to give Mrs G maximum time to arrange something else to do when I'm off cycling the length of Wales, the Peak District or Essex. If I'm doing a DIY or a Perm then it's either hastily arranged, or planned a long time in advance and for a specific purpose (i.e. making the Dun Run into a DIY 400, DIY rides up to Edinburgh to recce the LEL route, a DIY 400 down to the in-laws in Cornwall) which no calendar event can substitute.

Do I think RTTY is bad? No, but I'm sure it has changed peoples ride plans. I've dumped the idea of it now. I'll still aim for it but I'm not going to beat myself up if I miss a month. I'm certainly not going to miss out on a ride I wanted to do just because it's on the wrong weekend and in the wrong month.

Do I think Perms/DIY are bad? No, but they can be abused. They are useful to many though. Quite a few people work at the weekends, so riding calendar events is pretty much impossible for them. Without DIY or Perms Audax UK would be a handful of midweek events and a quarterly magazine.

Do I think group Perms/DIYs are bad? No, but they can be abused.

Do I think that calendar events are scheduled perfectly? No, November 2007 was a good example. There were only 3 200s in the whole of the month, all running on the same weekend. If you were busy that weekend then you'd be looking at a Perm or DIY if you had a RTTY to keep going.

Would I want the Event Secretary's job? Certainly not, but I'm very grateful for the work she, and team, do!

I believe that the DIY and Perm organisers will refuse to allow DIYs or Perms if there's a local calendar event that would work equally well that day. This works for me.

[Hummers]

OK Alex, all very interesting but are you coming out to play with me on the 19th?  

H

[Greenbank]

OK Alex, all very interesting but are you coming out to play with me on the 19th?  

No. If I'm out on the bike at all it'll be the Ide Hill Grimpeur. Either on 63" fixed to really ruin my legs before LEL or, more likely, the Wilier and a saddlepack the size of a gnats chuff.

[Hummers]

No. If I'm out on the bike at all it'll be the Ide Hill Grimpeur. Either on 63" fixed to really ruin my legs before LEL or, more likely, the Wilier and a saddlepack the size of a gnats chuff.

I rest my case m'lud.

 

H

<sup>P.S.

Do we have any pictures of a Gnat's chuff? Hmmmm, insect pr0n...</sup>

[Greenbank]

<sup>P.S.

Do we have any pictures of a Gnat's chuff? Hmmmm, insect pr0n...</sup>

Sure, here's one:-

.

[MSeries]

Some interesting comment Greenbank, not the right thread to pursue it however. As one who likes doing DIYs I am interested in your views on them being abused, but as I said not in this thread.

[Hummers]

Some interesting comment Greenbank, not the right thread to pursue it however. As one who likes doing DIYs I am interested in your views on them being abused, but as I said not in this thread.

Wasn't this discussed after the AGM on here?

I'm sure those that pul the levers of power could splice these comments onto that thread (if it exists).

If not, start a new one and we can do the same - letting this thread die a natural death ....

H

[Greenbank]

I've asked for the off-topic posts to be separated into a new thread. We'll see what happens.

By "abused" I only mean that I'm pretty sure there's at least one case where someone has done a DIY or a Perm when there was a perfectly good Calendar event close by that would have been hardly any extra trouble to ride instead. I, personally, don't think it's a problem at all, but I think that lots of others do think that abuse is more widespread (like the comments above) and are worried about it. Or that DIY/Perms are causing the death of calendar events (again, maybe some people may be using them inappropriately, but the vast majority are not). I'd rather it was discussed than it constantly lurking in the background being complained about.

One other point to remember is that Calendar events often end up being more expensive than DIYs. Travel costs to/from the start, accommodation, controls at cafes that are more equipped to deal with lots of cyclists, but possibly more expensive than the choice if you were riding solo, etc.

I think the BCM cost me close to £100 (Travelodge for two nights, train travel) and this doesn't include the half a day holiday I had to take and the fact that most of the food was included in the entry fee! A recent hilly 300 cost me almost the same. Both events were well worth it though.

[MSeries]

Read the whole thread now, I'm flabbergasted.  Hummers, you can't poach riders from the most excellent Brimham Rocks either, hell, it's only a couple of hundred miles away.

[Hummers]

Read the whole thread now, I'm flabbergasted.  Hummers, you can't poach riders from the most excellent Brimham Rocks either, hell, it's only a couple of hundred miles away.

I know.

I don't mean to be bad.

I'm just made that way.

H

[MSeries]

I'm Bad too. On July 11th I'm doing a perm instead of a shed load of other rides that are on that day, some of which are about 40 miles away from me. However I can't get there by train in time and don't want to ride across the Pennines first. I'm Bad. What is even worse is that I'm not riding on July 19th when i could support  Dave Lewis's events.  Perhaps if event organisers made the start times coincide with public transport they'd get more entries. Cost and time is actually a real consideration for me.

EDIT: Perms v Calendar Events was talked about after the AGM when the motion to abolish the '50% Rule' was defeated. Seems that the membership wants to keep the rule and hence perms.

[Weirdy Biker]

There appears to be a misconception amongst some organisers that AUK exists to support calendar events.  It doesn't.  They are one facet of the promotion of randonneur events.  Permanents and DIYs are an equally important part.  I'd go as far to say an increasingly important part.

[vorsprung]

There appears to be a misconception amongst some organisers that AUK exists to support calendar events.  It doesn't.

I've not noticed any signs of this "misconception"

They are one facet of the promotion of randonneur events.  Permanents and DIYs are an equally important part.  I'd go as far to say an increasingly important part.

Calendar events are more important than perms because

1) entrants meet other riders they don't know and make contacts in the mysterious world of long distance cycling
2) calendar events are usually easier to do as there is support in the form of food and rest stops.  So it is easier to progress to a longer distance.
3) calendar events can be entered by non members.  This is most peoples introduction to this form of cycling.
4) calendar events have a higher profile and do more to promote long distance cycling

I am not an organiser.  I have done long (400 and 600) perms as well as calendar events.

[Manotea]

People do seem to underestimate the commitment involved in joining AUK. That £9 cheque symbolically represents a blood oath to ride every possible calendar event within 1000km of home, preferably cycling to the venue and back. Leastways thats what I tell Mrs Manotea, especially when the choice is to ride or do some DIY.

Rather than castigate those who elect not to ride a calendar event in favour of an alternate Officially Sanctioned AUK Event we might be better employed tracking down the 50% of membership that never ride an AUK event at all or perhaps put their subs up. If they are that somnambulistic they wouldn't notice!

[Fixedwheelnut]

H

<sup>P.S.

Do we have any pictures of a Gnat's chuff? Hmmmm, insect pr0n...</sup>

 Does that come under buggery?

[Hummers]

H

<sup>P.S.

Do we have any pictures of a Gnat's chuff? Hmmmm, insect pr0n...</sup>

 Does that come under buggery?

 

I think it probably does, Wilde.

H

[teethgrinder]

Calendar events are more important than perms because

1) entrants meet other riders they don't know and make contacts in the mysterious world of long distance cycling
2) calendar events are usually easier to do as there is support in the form of food and rest stops.  So it is easier to progress to a longer distance.
3) calendar events can be entered by non members.  This is most peoples introduction to this form of cycling.
4) calendar events have a higher profile and do more to promote long distance cycling

Permanents are more important than calendar events because

1)entrants meet other riders they've never met before via internet forums such as YACF and form a strong bond with the rider/s who assist them on their longest AUK event and because of agreement before starting the ride will stay together and help each other along the way instead of riding off if they feel strong.

2)Permanents are far easier to get to and from, especially DIY events which eliminates the need to drive for miles to ride your bicycle as well as save you time and money. By their nature, you can ride them anytime so it is much easier to fit them around your other commitments and responsibilities in life. It means that you have a better chance of riding a longer distance event and can make the difference between riding and not riding. It also means that if you plan ahead with others, you can meet up with other riders for sections of your ride, or even latch onto a calendar event. You can plan a ride to go past your own home, so that you can sleep in your own bed, or use a hotel which you can split the cost of between a group of your friends. Or whatever you prefer.

3)Permanents can be ridden by non members,so you can introduce yor chums from the CTC DA or "road club" to the delights of Audaxing.

4)Calendar events have a higher profile. Probably because some seem a bit snobbish about riding lowly permanets? After all, only sad and lonely points chasers ride permanents, don't they? Unless you don't include those who have ridden their first SR series using permanents because they either couldn't manage their first calendar attempt or couldn't actually get to a calendar event.
Some of those who failed their first calendar 600 went on to ride a permanent 600 (sorry, but there were no calendar 600k events left for that season) with the help of an experienced AUK or two. This helped to get them more established at long distance cycling and encourage them on their way to successfully completing calendar 600km events in the next season. Permanents are also better for encouraging long distance cycling because calendar events become very rare if you want to cycle further than 600km.


Yes, there was a complaint at the AGM from the organiser of a well established 200. Apparently, a 600km permanent "stole" the riders from their 200. True, there were one or two who I think were riding the 600 instead of the 200. But some of those riding the 600 were gaining their first ever SR series, which they would never have done by riding a 200.
As for those who rode the 600 in favour of the 200, you'll have to ask them why they prefered to ride the 600. Because they like long distance cycling and a 600 is a tad longer than a 200 per chance?
Of course, the 600 could have integrated the 200 as a DIY 600, but that would have made the 600 trickier to plan and also to ride.


All rides are important and have their pros and cons.
People will ride what works best for them and what they prefer, so to try and persuade people to do what they don't want to doesn't make sense to me.
Some chose not to ride permanents, some can only ride permanents, while others do both.
Whatever works best for you. As long as people are doing the long rides under AUK rules, AUK will survive. Even if it means that it has to adapt, as it has allready been doing ever since it began.

[MercuryKev]

I strongly support group DIY/Perms.  Without access to these rides I would have never been able to get my SR.  For example in Scotland this year there was only one 400 and one 600 on the calendar and they ran on the same day, meaning that it would have been impossible this year to get an SR by riding Scottish calendar events (this is in no way a criticism of the organiser of these events, who is a very good egg in my books).

[Manotea]

Living in an area where there are no calendar events is nature's way of saying why don't you organise some!

List them and they will come!