Coronavirus and Audax

[Lightning Phil]

Use membership number and make sure auk forum is viewed in desktop mode. I seem to remember that the mobile version has a flaw that won’t let you log in.

[bhoot]

If you have issues logging onto the forum contact me at membership@audax.uk (with your real name!) and I will try to assist, and if I can't I will seek help elsewhere.
Caroline

[Greenbank]

It seems bizarre to say only people with one point of view should post on it and that people with a different point of view should post elsewhere. To describe my post as ranting and that I am not bold enough to post in my own name is insulting.

As mattc has pointed out, that's not what I said. Nor did I accuse you specifically of anything that you think I did.

This place seems to be almost an echo chamber for people who disagree with the AUK board's stance and that is not really reflected in actual posts over at the AUK forum. (Yes, members of the board may read this place, but they're very unlikely to respond here.)

Despite agreeing with the board's stance I'm trying to help people who disagree with it to get their message across, yet this is somehow seen as me trying to stifle debate. To make it clear, feel free to discuss anything you want here, I'm not suggesting you don't, but if you really want to get your view across then ALSO do it on the AUK forum.

[Davef]

It seems bizarre to say only people with one point of view should post on it and that people with a different point of view should post elsewhere. To describe my post as ranting and that I am not bold enough to post in my own name is insulting.

As mattc has pointed out, that's not what I said. Nor did I accuse you specifically of anything that you think I did.

This place seems to be almost an echo chamber for people who disagree with the AUK board's stance and that is not really reflected in actual posts over at the AUK forum. (Yes, members of the board may read this place, but they're very unlikely to respond here.)

Despite agreeing with the board's stance I'm trying to help people who disagree with it to get their message across, yet this is somehow seen as me trying to stifle debate. To make it clear, feel free to discuss anything you want here, I'm not suggesting you don't, but if you really want to get your view across then ALSO do it on the AUK forum.

After replying and quoting my post your sentence about “ranting” uses the word “you” twice. I therefore read it as being aimed at me. If it was not and I misunderstood, please accept my apologies.


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[Greenbank]

And apologies if there was a misunderstanding, I should have been clearer myself!

[Redlight]

I would encourage you onto the AUK forum, as it's the only place that board members* are responding to our questions.
(They claim to be reading other stuff, but as they don't respond to any of it, who knows?? They certainly seem deaf to all the members saying GPS perms should have been running for weeks now.)

Be assured, board members are trying to keep abreast of discussions on various fora, including this one, AUK Forum, Facebook and Twitter, and some of the comments and suggestions have been helpful and have informed board discussions. We have all tried to respond to personal messages and questions, although I know the chair has received far too many for him to be able to reply at length to every one. In some cases, to judge from the ones I have seen, the degree of hypothesis involved makes it impossible to provide any kind of meaningful response.

In the board discussions, we have tried to remain focused on what can be done for the majority of members with the minimum of temporary rule changes rather than trying to consider every possible permutation of ride that individuals might suggest. I don't recall a specific discussion about GPS perms but I'm sure that will be an option to consider when we next 'meet'.

One thing the discussions here have highlighted is that there are some members who display the kind of strategic thinking and decision-making skills that AUK needs as it plans for the future but, for whatever reason, have yet to put themselves forward to contribute.  There will be elections for board members in February and I look forward to seeing their (real) names on the ballot.

[Ajax Bay]

I offer this for discussion and would value people identifying items which I should have covered. Has to be best to adopt a constructive approach.

#DRAFTY (NOTAUDAX UK) - COVID19 – Event Guidelines & Risk Management - England                  
                  
These guidelines have been based on the advice issued by the UK government guidelines and apply to events wholly in England. There are 3 more sets of guidelines for the other nations.                  
                  
The guidelines will be reviewed and where necessary updated as more information comes to light regarding the restrictions. The complications of 'cross-border routes' will be addressed once the relevant nations guidelines are more closely aligned.                  
                  
Our priorities remain to protect the health of our members and volunteers, and to help to suppress the spread of the COVID-19 virus.                  
                  
Guidance for events                  
Organisers need to ensure people are advised of the following restrictions on who may attend any event. This should be communicated prior to any event (eg website or promotion) and displayed at registration/brevet pick-up/start/finish.                  

People (includes organisers/volunteers) should NOT attend any Audax UK registered cycling event:                  

• If they are unwell with a cough, fever or other respiratory symptoms.   
• If they have been in close contact with a suspected or confirmed case of COVID-19 until they have completed the prescribed quarantine period, even if they are completely symptom free.   
• If they have returned from any overseas country until they have completed the self-quarantine period for 14 days, even if they are symptom free      
• If they are undergoing COVID-19 testing, until they have received negative results and are symptom free      
• If they have been asked/told to isolate by NHS Test and Trace because they are a contact of a known COVID-19 case.   
• If they have been advised to stay at home by a health professional.   
• We also advise [EDIT] riders/volunteers who fit within the higher at risk groups to take particular care and/or make decisions on attendance with due consideration to the risks associated with COVID-19.   
• The above information should be clear on the Entry Form and that if any rider is displaying symptoms, they will not be allowed to participate.

            
Risk Management During Event                  
Event organisers should identify opportunities to reduce the risk to riders and volunteers (organising and helping) through: taking sensible precautions and implementing practices which reduce the chance of infection and which support social distancing (SDing). These include:                  
Volunteer Plan - A clear volunteer event plan is in place. This is to ensure that all volunteers are comfortable and fully understand their roles and timings for the event, that measures are taken to maintain the welfare and safety of volunteers, and to ensure they can comply with all social distancing requirements.                  
Event Promotion - With event size likely to be limited, events should only be promoted to Audax UK members. This can be through newsletters, social media and emails. Organisers should avoid publicising events externally (eg to clubs not on the Audax UK list).                  
Entry Forms - Pre-entry forms should require entrants to tick a box to acknowledge that they must not attend if they or a member of their household has COVID-19 symptoms.                   
Limited number of Entries - There may be a government limit on the number of people who can safely attend an event. Local restrictions may also apply. You must have measures in place to ensure you comply with these requirements, such as only allowing pre-entries                  
Start times - Giving each entrant an allocated window to arrive at the event and to start may help to spread out riders and avoid large gatherings of people                  
Start time - May need to express this as a 'window' to allow small groups to be set off at intervals, to spread riders out and support social distancing at the start and in any groups early on.                  
Refunds - Organisers should offer a refund to anyone who needs to withdraw their entry for health reason.                  
Registration - default to siting this outside. Consider arrangements where no volunteer is needed and facilitates social distancing during brevet pick-up. If a volunteer manning any desk is necessary, consider their need for access to PPE (glasses and mask) and hand sanitizer.                   
Personal Responsibility - Ensure that all riders are directed to the “Participant Code of Conduct” document.                  
Brevets - Cards can be individually bagged (by the organiser with washed hands) folded to display the rider's name, prior to issue at the event. A number of spare brevets should be prepared as a back-up.                   
Start Area - Starts will need to be chosen to support any social distancing requirements with sufficient space for riders.                  
Arrivee - Location needs to be chosen to support any social distancing requirements with sufficient space for arriving riders. Consider siting location for handing in brevets outside while observing any social distancing requirements. Encourage people to move away from that area.                    
                  
                  
After Event Cleaning - Materials must be cleaned before and after use.                  
                  
                  
Toilets - If, given lack of access to eg community centre or pub 'facilities', mobile toilets are used, the units should be spaced out and the queue structured to comply with any social distancing requirements. Handles should be disinfected frequently.                  
Pre- and Post- Ride Socialising - Organisers should not promote or encourage pre- or post-ride socialising.                  
                  
Hand Cleaning Facilities - If practicable provide hand washing or sanitising facilities at start and finish.                  
Participant Hygiene - Asking all that attend to follow good hygiene practices and maintain physical space between each other.                  

Whoever is leading on producing the Audax UK Risk Assessment is welcome to ask for a copy of this. There'd be a quid pro quo.

[mattc]

"competitors " ?? 

[Ajax Bay]

"competitors " ?? 

  Can't get the quality of plagiarism nowadays, Matt.

[FifeingEejit]

From my perspective, in terms of risk I would put a 200km solo ride below tennis and way below visiting the supermarket.

And others (including some of the AUK board it would seem) disagree. And that is what ends us with the current position of disagreement.

If you disagree with it I suggest you take it to the AUK forum but, as I've seen so far, people are far less likely to do that under their real name than just rant here semi-anonymously. Some have made the bold move of posting on the AUK forum and discussion is all the better for it.

The great advantage that socially distancable sports like tennis have is they take place in one location (in the case of golf, you return to it because that's how courses are laid out); where as cycling is a moving sport that lets you cover a huge area in short order.
This seems to be part of the problem with interpreting the "5 mile rules", Scottish Cycling say you can travel 5 miles to start your ride and then you're unlimited (unless the polis take the hump and turn you), others (usually councillors) seem to expect you to be no more than 5 miles from home (which would make that advice more strict than when we were under lochdoon)

There's plenty of hospital capacity right now in most places to cope with Tennis Elbow, broken limbs and Road rash, but that's not the purpose of COVID related restrictions, it's to reduce how far people spread it from their own area if they have it and to reduce the chances of it getting into remote places... which is what makes Boris' "You can travel as far as you want but don't stay over night" utterly mental.


The 60%ish of cases being entirely asymptomatic renders advice/restrictions based on how people feel pretty useless.

[Davef]

I thought the restrictions on movement in Scotland and Wales were to prevent people congregating in popular places where social distancing would be difficult. It is difficult to imagine there are places that are so effectively cut off that they have isolated from covid and yet would still be visited on an audax.


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[FifeingEejit]

I regularly ride to places like Aberfeldy, Pitlochry, Alyth and the absolute arse end of nowhere* between them on DIYs, amazingly the arse end of nowhere has a shop and a couple of pubs.  If I was to be an asymptomatic carrier of the virus and went into that shop, I've potentially just infected the entirety of that village.
It's a 30 mile ambulance journey to Dundee to/from there, although the responding ambulances that would probably have to take 1.4 of the village to hopsital would respond from either Perth or Pitlochry.

Tayside's relatively high number of cases are mostly in Dundee and Perth, the lockdown came in early enough for many remoter places to dodge the bullet, look at Skye as another example of that, not a single case on the island until care home workers took it to Portree. (and a very low case count in Highland in general.)

Of the other 3 places mentioned they have big co-ops so the locals didn't really need to travel to Perth, their biggest risk was probably the co-ops delivery drivers, care staff and health staff and errants arriving from Perth.

* Kirkmichael

[Davef]

I regularly ride to places like Aberfeldy, Pitlochry, Alyth and the absolute arse end of nowhere* between them on DIYs, amazingly the arse end of nowhere has a shop and a couple of pubs.  If I was to be an asymptomatic carrier of the virus and went into that shop, I've potentially just infected the entirety of that village.
It's a 30 mile ambulance journey to Dundee to/from there, although the responding ambulances that would probably have to take 1.4 of the village to hopsital would respond from either Perth or Pitlochry.

Tayside's relatively high number of cases are mostly in Dundee and Perth, the lockdown came in early enough for many remoter places to dodge the bullet, look at Skye as another example of that, not a single case on the island until care home workers took it to Portree. (and a very low case count in Highland in general.)

Of the other 3 places mentioned they have big co-ops so the locals didn't really need to travel to Perth, their biggest risk was probably the co-ops delivery drivers, care staff and health staff and errants arriving from Perth.

* Kirkmichael

When you submit your gpx to audax U.K. for validation if there any stops of 1 minute or more within 50m of one of those prohibited co-ops then all your historic points will be stripped and you will be banned from owning mudguards for life. On calendar events in addition to the illegal stop zone violations and group riding digital checks there will be the added humiliation of your fellow riders spotting you cheating. Coupled with the random spot checks to check that you are carrying the mandated food and water levels at all points I think regulated riding should be the way forward. It is this unregulated “free riding” that you partake in that should be banned.


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[mattc]

The 60%ish of cases being entirely asymptomatic renders advice/restrictions based on how people feel pretty useless.

No it doesn't. Standard risk-mitigation:

if you can reduce a risk by 40%, you do so. It doesn't matter that you can't eliminate it completely. (see also: the 2metre rule, or speed limits)

(2ry reason - carriers with symptoms are MUCH more likely to spread it, due to the coughing-n-sneezing. This is how the virus spreads, primarily).

[FifeingEejit]

The 60%ish of cases being entirely asymptomatic renders advice/restrictions based on how people feel pretty useless.

No it doesn't. Standard risk-mitigation:

if you can reduce a risk by 40%, you do so. It doesn't matter that you can't eliminate it completely. (see also: the 2metre rule, or speed limits)

(2ry reason - carriers with symptoms are MUCH more likely to spread it, due to the coughing-n-sneezing. This is how the virus spreads, primarily).

Aye, symptomatic persons are much more likely to spread it, but there is clear evidence of many asymptomatic transmissions either by those 2 days before becoming asymptomatic or by those that remain asymptomatic.

Coughing and Sneezing do carry the virus further in a single action, but so to do singing and breathing heavily.
The later being the obvious problem with cyclists etc.

The level of asymptomatic transmission is why there's now calls for all care and health workers to be tested daily, and why NHS England are now telling trusts that everyone in a hospital must have a mask on (this is a bit problematic if you wear glasses, I look forward to trying that argument on the board if it's brought in here, sorry if I come to work I won't be able to work because I won't be able to fucking see.).

[Greenbank]

The 60%ish of cases being entirely asymptomatic renders advice/restrictions based on how people feel pretty useless.

No it doesn't. Standard risk-mitigation:

if you can reduce a risk by 40%, you do so. It doesn't matter that you can't eliminate it completely. (see also: the 2metre rule, or speed limits)

You can reduce the risk by the remaining 60% if you really wanted to, but it seems some people don't want that.

[guidon]

over here (france) they're saying 10m between cyclists - but I've only seen a few that far apart on the roads of Brittany 

[mattc]

over here (france) they're saying 10m between cyclists - but I've only seen a few that far apart on the roads of Brittany 

over here (UK) they're saying that 5g is spreading the virus.

[mattc]

The 60%ish of cases being entirely asymptomatic renders advice/restrictions based on how people feel pretty useless.

No it doesn't. Standard risk-mitigation:

if you can reduce a risk by 40%, you do so. It doesn't matter that you can't eliminate it completely. (see also: the 2metre rule, or speed limits)

You can reduce the risk by the remaining 60% if you really wanted to, but it seems some people don't want that.

If you're concerned, stay at home completely. That's if you want to?

[Davef]

The 60%ish of cases being entirely asymptomatic renders advice/restrictions based on how people feel pretty useless.

No it doesn't. Standard risk-mitigation:

if you can reduce a risk by 40%, you do so. It doesn't matter that you can't eliminate it completely. (see also: the 2metre rule, or speed limits)

You can reduce the risk by the remaining 60% if you really wanted to, but it seems some people don't want that.

Ons estimates 5600 new cases a day, assumng 7 days of asymptomatic/presymptomatic carriers before the body clears the virus or becomes sick thats 40000 people, and if we say 40% symptomatic that's 16000 noticeably sick people.  So we can reduce the risk by 40% by isolating 16000 people, but to get the remaining 60% we have to lockdown 68000000 along with the economic damage and mental health issues. Not to mention blighting the lives of the young by lising a year of education. UN now concerned about the numbers of people likely to be pushed into extreme poverty globally by the response which is probably likely to result in more deaths,  but I guess as they are not here we don't have to balance those up against the extreme lockdown response advocated with statements like we could remove all risk of we wanted to.

The idea of contact tracing you could isolate many of those without symptoms efficiently too. Whether people who have no symptoms but get a phone call to say they should isolate actually do so is a different matter.


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[guidon]

It wouldn't suprise me, Matt - I should have specified "they" being the government....Is Boris saying that 5G gives covid then     

[Davef]

It wouldn't suprise me, Matt - I should have specified "they" being the government....Is Boris saying that 5G gives covid then     

Do you have a link to the official French gov guidance on this?, all I can see is mention of 1m.


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[Ben T]

It wouldn't suprise me, Matt - I should have specified "they" being the government....Is Boris saying that 5G gives covid then     

Do you have a link to the official French gov guidance on this?, all I can see is mention of 1m.


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Is 1m measured from centre to centre, or exterior to exterior?
Because in the case of someone who was sufficiently fat it would be possible to always be 1m, even if they were touching (but not squashed up).
Nose to nose might be a more sensible measure.

[simonp]

 Nose to surface. A person can breather. Covid lands on your hand. You pick your nose.

[guidon]

The distance requirement was produced by the Minister for sport and has been published by the FFC, FFCT and UFOLEP...In view of the deep breathing.....