Author Topic: Grammar that makes you cringe  (Read 834867 times)

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #100 on: 02 May, 2008, 11:54:51 am »
There's a pet hate of mine in one of the Avatars on this thread. "Weather conditions". A tautology.

Blame Durham County Council - ignorant and uneducated, in my opinion  ;)

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #101 on: 02 May, 2008, 12:13:05 pm »
I prefer to read "Your a muppet" on forums.  As wrong as it is, it sounds cooler and is more insulting, IMO.
Your Royal Charles are belong to us.

Eccentrica Gallumbits

  • Rock 'n' roll and brew, rock 'n' roll and brew...
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #102 on: 02 May, 2008, 12:46:16 pm »
I rather like the oxford comma - it makes the list read better in my head, and so I tend to use it. 

Except where used to aid clarity as illustrated by Frenchie and Jezza above, it's irrational. Lists are built from right to left:

red

yellow and red

blue, yellow and red

Why would you suddenly put a comma after yellow in the last example but not in the second?

But what if I build my list as

red

red and yellow

red, yellow and blue

?
My feminist marxist dialectic brings all the boys to the yard.


iakobski

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #103 on: 02 May, 2008, 01:03:33 pm »
Personal pet hate (but highly debatable in terms of actual usage over many years): "different to" or "different than".

The roots of the word "different" are in the Latin "carry apart". "Carry apart to" is an oxymoron, and "carry apart than" just doesn't make sense at all, so anything but "different from" clashes in the mind.

Discuss...

Ignoring "different than" because only Americans and people who watch too much telly would use that...

The analogy is with "similar to..." Presumably the roots of the word similar are similar, eg something like "bring together", so "bring together to" would be equally nonsensical. So the argument is that if we say "A is similar to B", we should say "B is different to C".

An equally good argument is that different is the opposite of similar, and from is the opposite of to, so if "similar to" is correct then "different from" would be correct.


Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #104 on: 02 May, 2008, 01:13:11 pm »
My partner's Ealing Polling card claimed that the polling station had a 'disabled entrance'. So how could the voters get inside to vote?

iakobski

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #105 on: 02 May, 2008, 01:14:15 pm »
I was recently praised (by an older man) for using the word 'fewer'. Does it truly matter, tho? Failure to make the distinction doesn't obscure meaning, it can't be used to deceive. It's not the sort of thing that Orwell would cite, were we to resurrect him and have him write a noughties 'Politics and the English Language'.


It can do.

Lots of intelligent people post in "The Pub", fewer intelligent people post in "Audax and Cyclosportive"

OR

Lots of intelligent people post in "The Pub", less intelligent people post in "Audax and Cyclosportive"


The Government wanted to employ less civil servants...

OR

The Government wanted to employ fewer civil servants...

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #106 on: 02 May, 2008, 01:37:13 pm »
I prefer to read "Your a muppet" on forums.  As wrong as it is, it sounds cooler and is more insulting, IMO.
The canonical b3ta flame is "your all gay", which spawned its own website.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #107 on: 02 May, 2008, 01:55:24 pm »
My partner's Ealing Polling card claimed that the polling station had a 'disabled entrance'. So how could the voters get inside to vote?
Probably through "this door (which) is alarmed". As opposed to that one over there, which is terrified.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #108 on: 02 May, 2008, 01:58:53 pm »
"Bus stopping at next bus stop. Please stand well clear of doors."
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #109 on: 02 May, 2008, 02:01:01 pm »
So the argument is that if we say "A is similar to B", we should say "B is different to C".

An equally good argument is that different is the opposite of similar, and from is the opposite of to, so if "similar to" is correct then "different from" would be correct.

IMHO the first argument fails because of the sense of movement in "different". The two are diversifying, or diversified, from each other. You can't move apart and towards each other at the same time.

If you tried to extend it, you'd have to conclude that because "A is joined with B" then "C is separated with D".

The second argument produces the "right" answer, but not necessarily for sound reasons.

iakobski

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #110 on: 02 May, 2008, 03:01:37 pm »
So the argument is that if we say "A is similar to B", we should say "B is different to C".

An equally good argument is that different is the opposite of similar, and from is the opposite of to, so if "similar to" is correct then "different from" would be correct.

IMHO the first argument fails because of the sense of movement in "different". The two are diversifying, or diversified, from each other. You can't move apart and towards each other at the same time.

If you tried to extend it, you'd have to conclude that because "A is joined with B" then "C is separated with D".

But A is not joined with B, it's joined to B! Obviously, C is separated to.... errrmm, whatever, it's definitely not separated than D

Si

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #111 on: 02 May, 2008, 03:08:58 pm »
Fave at the mo:

"The winners are the ones that bring me the most amount of money."

I guess that if you've that amount of money no one ever corrects you as money talks louder than grammar.

fruitcake

  • some kind of fruitcake
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #112 on: 05 May, 2008, 05:54:43 pm »
Just heard:
"Shardlow has the most number of pubs"

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #113 on: 05 May, 2008, 09:04:51 pm »
But A is not joined with B, it's joined to B!

It depends on the sense. A is joined with B implies the bringing together of two (approximate) equals, creating a greater whole. A is joined to B implies that B is pretty big and adding in A doesn't make an enormous difference. On the other hand, A is joined to B can also imply a very weak linkage.

For example, country A might be joined to country B by a narrow strip of land, but they would still have their separate identities.

You can certainly be joined with B in holy matrimony, even if some people feel that they are joined to ;D

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #114 on: 05 May, 2008, 09:22:08 pm »
Uninterested and disinterested are commonly confused by writers who should know better.

Uninterested - don't give a toss
Disinterested - impartial
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Eccentrica Gallumbits

  • Rock 'n' roll and brew, rock 'n' roll and brew...
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #115 on: 05 May, 2008, 10:57:56 pm »
Oh, and momentarily - it means for a moment, not in a moment.
My feminist marxist dialectic brings all the boys to the yard.


Wowbagger

  • Former Sylph
    • Stuff mostly about weather
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #116 on: 05 May, 2008, 11:13:29 pm »
I cannot abide weather persons who refer to "cold temperatures".
Quote from: Dez
It doesn’t matter where you start. Just start.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #117 on: 05 May, 2008, 11:14:59 pm »
Please enlighten me - when should one use "them" instead of "those".

Kate Bush referred to "Them heavy people" which sounds wrong, though in fairness Girls Aloud didn't "need no good advice" did they?

Q

border-rider

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #118 on: 05 May, 2008, 11:16:16 pm »
One that bugs the inner physicist is "quantum leap"used to describe a big/fundamental change

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #119 on: 05 May, 2008, 11:17:24 pm »
I was recently praised (by an older man) for using the word 'fewer'. Does it truly matter, tho? Failure to make the distinction doesn't obscure meaning, it can't be used to deceive. It's not the sort of thing that Orwell would cite, were we to resurrect him and have him write a noughties 'Politics and the English Language'.



The Government wanted to employ less civil servants...

OR

The Government wanted to employ fewer civil servants...

Both of those are correct.  The Government employs fewer civil servant... and the ones they employ have definitely become less civil in my experience...  ;D
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #120 on: 06 May, 2008, 09:41:19 pm »
One that bugs the inner physicist is "quantum leap"used to describe a big/fundamental change

That always gets me too - glad I am not the only one. By definition, a quantum leap is surely the smallest advance possible, and one so small as to be immeasurable by all normal standards.

border-rider

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #121 on: 06 May, 2008, 09:43:43 pm »
I suppose that it is a step-change, a discontinuity - but as you say (usually) a very small one :)

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #122 on: 06 May, 2008, 11:31:44 pm »
Please enlighten me - when should one use "them" instead of "those".

Kate Bush referred to "Them heavy people" which sounds wrong, though in fairness Girls Aloud didn't "need no good advice" did they?

Q

'Them' is a pronoun ie a substitute for a noun phrase.

'Those' is a "demonstrative adjective"?  So "them" could refer to "those heavy people", but only if they are having something done to them, rather than doing something - pretty obvious eg "I saw those heavy people, they were crossing the road" but not "them were crossing the road", but "I saw those heavy people, people are weighing them."

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #123 on: 07 May, 2008, 04:03:32 am »
Strictly, a semi-colon should be used in your examples, thus:

"I saw those heavy people; they were crossing the road."

"I saw those heavy people; people are weighing them."

In each case, you have two clauses that are themselves complete sentences, so they cannot be separated by commas. 'Those' is being used as an adjective, i.e. it refers to the noun 'people' that accompanies it.

Just to complicate it, though, 'those' can be used as a demonstrative pronoun, thus:

"He gave those to his fellow-rider."

In my example, 'them' could be substituted for 'those'; both are pronouns, i.e. they stand in place of nouns. For example, if 'those'/'them' refers to energy drinks, then the pronoun stands in place of the noun "drinks":

"He gave the drinks to his fellow-rider."

'Them' cannot be used as an adjective and, as you say, "them heavy people" will always be wrong.

As a pronoun, 'those' is slightly stronger than 'them'. It suggests 'those particular ones', where special effort has been made to define which ones:

"John bought some apples and gave them to his mother."

but:

"John picked out the best apples. He gave those to his mother."

This is why 'those' is a demonstrative pronoun and 'them' is not. However, this is just a shade of meaning, and in many cases either pronoun could be used.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #124 on: 07 May, 2008, 10:22:30 am »
By definition, a quantum leap is surely the smallest advance possible

Not quite. Whilst the energy involved in a quantum leap is considerably less than the energy required to completely free an electron from an atom, it doesn't necessarily mean it is the smallest possible quantity of energy.

As MV says, the "leap" in the term is used to indicate a set of discrete energy levels between which the electrons leap. Classical physics had a continuum of energy levels which quantum mechanics tore to pieces.

And this is why, I thought at least, it is sometimes used to refer to massive changes. Quantum Mechanics blew large holes in classical theories and forced lots of people to rethink how stuff actually works.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."