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General Category => The Knowledge => Topic started by: joy of essex on 29 June, 2020, 02:00:47 pm

Title: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: joy of essex on 29 June, 2020, 02:00:47 pm
Hello,

You'll  be delighted to learn that I am having a new  light tourer frame  built. 

I now  need to choose the gears  for it

So what's every one using now?  The bike won't be carrying lots of  luggage so a  triple is unnecessary.  So , other than  a  50/34.what combinations  of chain rings are people using these days?

 It needs low gears as it will be ridden  occasionally on the Isle of Wight  and which means having to get in and out of Ventnor.

This probably means  a  48 or a 46 outer   but how low for  the inner?

Assume   Shimano, that it's going to have an 12- 32 cassette (9 0r 10 speed),  the use of  DT friction shifters, mudguards,, and a saddle bag. Think Rough Stuff Fellowship...

Your comments and advice are welcome
 
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 29 June, 2020, 03:04:31 pm
I've got a 46-30 with 12-36 9-speed, but that's with a lot more than just a saddlebag.

I'm not sure about the cool kids, they don't usually hang out here.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: morbihan on 29 June, 2020, 03:18:58 pm
We just got new builds (been building them up this weekend as it happens) They are tour orientated, albeit for heavier load perhaps than you mention. (4 panniers)  We are getting a bit older too so we have moved from 50/34 & 34/11 cassette to  42/26 & 36/11 figuring that should see us into old age and Ebike territory or dominos
I mulled over having a 44 or 46 up front, but in the end went with easier load carrying on hills over speed.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 29 June, 2020, 03:31:05 pm
HK has a SunXCD 46/30t square taper crankset and Shimano 11-34t cassette on her Kinesis Tripster AT. The cranks splay slightly for ankle and front derailleur clearance but not by as much as some other cranks. Most front mechs are rated to 16t difference.

Apparently HK is the only one to ever break a LH crank and we would buy this model again.

https://www.veloduo.co.uk/collections/sunxcd/products/sunxcd-rene-herse-style-double-chainset
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: quixoticgeek on 29 June, 2020, 03:33:22 pm
I am running a 28-38 on the front, and a 11-40 on the back. It covers everything I need. I only ever hit the 38/11 gear if I'm doing well over 30kph, and that is very rare. I've yet to spin it out.

This is using Shimano Deore 11 speed.

Before that I had Shimano Deore 10 speed front mech, with a 40/28 chainset, and a 34-11 at the back. I felt this wasn't low enough. I never managed to spin it out on anything other than downhill...

J
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: Rod Marton on 29 June, 2020, 03:45:28 pm
On my newbuild I'm running a 46-34 at the front with 11-32 11-speed at the back. Somewhat unusual, but there is logic to it:

1. 11-speed cassettes all seem to come with an 11 tooth sprocket. This gives me a 113 inch top gear, which is as high as I will ever need (actually I could probably got away with a 44 ring, but it wouldn't fit on my crankset).
2. Bottom gear (28.7") will get me up everything I am likely to come across.
3. I don't like the large difference between the chainrings on a 50-34, it means all sorts of faffing around with gear changes. The smaller gap makes for a much better front change.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: Asterix, the former Gaul. on 29 June, 2020, 03:48:33 pm
On my British Eagle Touristique I have this:

https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m2b0s109p2016/SPA-CYCLES-TD-2-Touring-Double-Chainset-with-custom-TA-chainrings (https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m2b0s109p2016/SPA-CYCLES-TD-2-Touring-Double-Chainset-with-custom-TA-chainrings)

48 34 ISTR.  It changes very nicely.

The cassette is 8 speed (low 34) with a Shimano 105 derailleur.  The shifters are bar-enders.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: zigzag on 29 June, 2020, 04:38:02 pm
on a gravel/touring bike 46/30 and 11-36 cassette, works well for me.

(if you are concerned about a cool factor, then friction shifters, mudguards and a saddle bags - aren't ;D )
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: joy of essex on 29 June, 2020, 04:43:50 pm
 I should add that  the frame is being made in Italy , ordered via Racer  Rosa in Walthamstow. 

When I mentioned triple chainsets to Diego, whose runs Racer  Rosa, a  look of pain came  across  his  face. I think he'd prefer I went for a Chorus 12 speed groupset- This is attractive as Campag now offer a 48/32 chain set and a 36  rear cassette. But that's for another bike...

Here's an example of what I expect to get...

http://www.racerrosabicycles.co.uk/index.php?main_page=page&id=14
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: joy of essex on 29 June, 2020, 04:45:03 pm
In terms of  cool---the Rough Stuff Fellowship look is very much on trend  at the moment...

Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: Fennec on 29 June, 2020, 04:47:50 pm
44/28 front (Spa Cycles square taper) and 11-34 rear (9 speed).

It’s intended for rides where comfort>speed, and the smallest couple of sprockets have proved pretty much decorative.

The bike has the original Sora STI units, which I don’t like in any respect. I will change to bar-end shifters which I prefer on a touring bike - I have everything I need except a round tuit.

It also has full guards, a Carradice saddlebag and a Brooks B17 😁

(Disclaimer: I am not, never have been and never will be cool).
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: Andy W on 29 June, 2020, 05:17:04 pm
Certainly not cool, but, swapped 50/34for46/30 grx chainset. 11/32 11 speed cassette. Perfect in every way. 46/11 plenty tall enough for my tourer. When the cassette is worn out I'll fit an11/34. Last weekend I test rode it up chalk hill, Hatch h Lane Baldock with panniers, with 2.5 kg tent, sleeping bag, thermarest mat. Nowt else. Twiddle up in bottom gear relatively easy. I'm 59 and not that fit. 13 stone 6'1""to add perspective
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: giropaul on 29 June, 2020, 06:33:17 pm
I should add that  the frame is being made in Italy , ordered via Racer  Rosa in Walthamstow. 

When I mentioned triple chainsets to Diego, whose runs Racer  Rosa, a  look of pain came  across  his  face. I think he'd prefer I went for a Chorus 12 speed groupset- This is attractive as Campag now offer a 48/32 chain set and a 36  rear cassette. But that's for another bike...

Here's an example of what I expect to get...

http://www.racerrosabicycles.co.uk/index.php?main_page=page&id=14

A friend of mine, a trained ( in Italy) Campagnolo specialist, has converted a Campag triple to a double using the middle and inner rings only.
That might satisfy the Italian cultural requirement 
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: Karla on 29 June, 2020, 06:48:31 pm
46/30 chainsets are an established thing now.  The Shimano GRX double chainsets should fit your bill nicely.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: Feanor on 29 June, 2020, 06:54:12 pm
My Shand Stoater came with GRX 46/30 with 11/34 at the back.
It feels 'right' on that bike.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: HeltorChasca on 29 June, 2020, 07:03:51 pm
I’m certainly not cool and I’m probably not helping, but triples are very desirable for a tourer. I run a 28/38/48 on an 11-32 9 speed. Surly Disc Trucker.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: joy of essex on 29 June, 2020, 07:09:10 pm
That's very much the set up I have on my heavy duty tourer; an excellent combination of sprockets and chain rings.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: mike on 29 June, 2020, 07:41:17 pm
46/30 chainsets are an established thing now.  The Shimano GRX double chainsets should fit your bill nicely.
that's what I'm going for.  Although I hadnt seen that campag chainset... :D
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: tiermat on 29 June, 2020, 08:16:23 pm
46/30 chainsets are an established thing now.  The Shimano GRX double chainsets should fit your bill nicely.
that's what I'm going for.  Although I hadnt seen that campag chainset... :D

I am hoping, soon, to swap to a GRX chainset. The main downside I can see is that you can't use a double with the long cage rear mech, thus you are restricted to the 11-34 cassette at the rear, whereas if you go 1X you can use the 11-42.

More deciding required.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: alexb on 29 June, 2020, 09:08:22 pm
I can see the attraction of running a double, but I'm still running Campagnolo triple 3x10 and it seems like a very good set up. The Campagnolo shifters are lovely. Spare parts are easily obtained and cheap and it's been incredibly long lasting. I've got a new middle chainring in after 12 years and now and then you with the idea of replacing the 30t inner chainring with a 28t to allow me to drop below the magic 1:1 ratio, but so far my chosen 13-29 sprockets seem ok.

If you can find the parts, if be tempted to do that, or maybe the newer 2x11 and go for the wide range cassette.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: mzjo on 29 June, 2020, 10:02:21 pm
46-30 might be a standard set-up now but when I tried it (before the GRX stuff came out) I didn't get on with it, I was never on the right ring in the right gear. I had had 44-30 several decades earlier which was wonderful and had used 42-30 and 42-32 on mountains (day bag but heavy bike) which worked very well. I then went to 46-34 which was better but not low enough and finished up adding a 30 (although 28 is even better I have found) to end up with a triple. Mind I was only using 8sp 11-30, with a modern 11sp cassette I might have found things a bit different.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: perpetual dan on 29 June, 2020, 10:11:06 pm
Crikey, I’m not the only one :)
I’ve got 26/36 on my gravel / tourer, and 11 - 36 at the back (could probably change to 32 or 34). It’s 10 speed with bar end shifters, which I find more comfortable.
The top gears run out at about 38km/h, which is freewheeling down hill in my world.
The bottom gears let me sit and spin easily up most things.
More important, the big ring takes me from easy going / false flat and faster on the road; while the small ring is any 2 or more of long hill, steep hill, extra luggage and rough surface. So I’m not mucking about changing rings all the time.
Your legs may vary.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: Brucey on 29 June, 2020, 10:19:32 pm
.If you fancy Italian (ish) Miche do a 2x chainset that is very similar to the GRX one.  Whether 2x or 3x is 'right' for you is obviously a question of what gears you intend to use; different strokes for different folks and all that.

cheers
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: joy of essex on 29 June, 2020, 10:26:31 pm
I am wondering if there's a cycle touring or Audax tradition in Italian cycling.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 29 June, 2020, 10:41:03 pm
Audax Italiano started a few years before Audax Club Parisien was created.

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1200
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: Deano on 29 June, 2020, 10:54:36 pm
I currently have 48-30 with an 11-34 cassette. Works ok, except for the slightly bent spider. It's an old triple, I don't use the outer position.

I've found a 26-tooth inner for my full-on-nineties-but-still-nice chainset, and I reckon I'll swap to 44-26. It should make the big ring more usable overall, leaving the inner for the hills. The front mech may or may not work, but I need a new front mech anyway.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: LateStarter on 29 June, 2020, 11:05:44 pm
My first 20 or so 200 km Audax rides were on my tourer with a triple but I started to think I needed something more cool for a "Audax" bike and the builder gave me the "doubles can cover the same range as triples" line. Got a 46/30 double & 11-36 cassette but maths told me I lost a couple of low gears over the triple but worst of all I found the most used gears were always across the rings and I was always shifting between them. After a miserable year I replaced the double with the same setup as my tourer (24-36-48 & 12-36) and can again spend most of a day just using the middle ring but with a few extra low gears on the small ring for those bigger climbs and a couple of higher gears on the big ring for those very rare down hill pedalling needs. If I really need to be cool (or perhaps odd) I can use the RH 10 speed Ultegra shifter from the double days with a 10 speed cassette all with the same rear derailleur as the 9 speed SORA incarnation.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: grams on 29 June, 2020, 11:21:56 pm
I am hoping, soon, to swap to a GRX chainset. The main downside I can see is that you can't use a double with the long cage rear mech, thus you are restricted to the 11-34 cassette at the rear, whereas if you go 1X you can use the 11-42.

I'm running 46-30 x 11-42 with a long cage mech. It works fine. That bike has Di2 which prevents shifting to small-small, although it wouldn't do any harm if you did and the chain went a bit slack.

My "touring" bike" uses an MTB triple 44-32-22 and 11-32 cassette. I am definitely not a cool kid.

Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: Bolt on 29 June, 2020, 11:27:49 pm
Given that you're using friction shifters I'd thing again before dismissing the triple option.  The Spa Cycles XD-2 48/38/28 is a capable and lightweight chainset at a bargain price:  https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m2b0s109p2000/SPA-CYCLES-XD-2-Touring-Triple-Chainset (https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m2b0s109p2000/SPA-CYCLES-XD-2-Touring-Triple-Chainset)
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: Karla on 29 June, 2020, 11:48:55 pm
46/30 chainsets are an established thing now.  The Shimano GRX double chainsets should fit your bill nicely.

Someone is selling one of these in the forum classifieds right now.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: tiermat on 30 June, 2020, 08:52:48 am
I am hoping, soon, to swap to a GRX chainset. The main downside I can see is that you can't use a double with the long cage rear mech, thus you are restricted to the 11-34 cassette at the rear, whereas if you go 1X you can use the 11-42.

I'm running 46-30 x 11-42 with a long cage mech. It works fine. That bike has Di2 which prevents shifting to small-small, although it wouldn't do any harm if you did and the chain went a bit slack.

My "touring" bike" uses an MTB triple 44-32-22 and 11-32 cassette. I am definitely not a cool kid.

Thank you, I like real world experience, much better than relying on Shimano...

Going back (ish) on topic, and to repay your experience with some of mine, I ran until about 5 years ago a On-one Inbred 29er set up as a tourer.  The chainset was a MTB one (Raceface Evolce IIRC) with 22-32-44 (I think) and a 11-28 cassette.  All the mechs and shifters were 6603.  The front mech took some fettling to get it to work but once I had it dialled in it worked for many many miles across the UK and Catalonia.  Then I got lazy and bought a soot gravel bike :)
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: Asterix, the former Gaul. on 30 June, 2020, 09:23:16 am
The thing is, if it's a light tourer why have a triple? I used to think they were the bees knees but no longer.. They were a thing with 5 and 6 speed cassettes, but now?

On my heavy tourer I have a triple which I need if lugging 20kg up the Galibier) r. On the Touristique, it cycling around N. Yorks, a 16 speed double is very nice. Early this year I was doing club rides with riders with tons more cogs but had little trouble.

I'd like to reduce my Roberts to a double when opportunity arrives. Triple shifting is a needless complication. .

We are of course, all different!
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: Brucey on 30 June, 2020, 07:12:25 pm
re GRX chainsets, shimano make both 2x10 and 2x11 models with (in some cases) the same chainring sizes.  The 2x10 model is "quite a lot less expensive" than the 2x11 model, yet cannot differ (in the big chainrings which have different pns) by more than a fraction of a mm because of the difference in chain widths.  I have hypothesised that the 2x10 model will work fine with 11s chain but (as yet) have no practical experience of this.

cheers
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: joy of essex on 30 June, 2020, 10:52:05 pm
As  I said,  a light tourer  is what's being built. I don't really need a triple as it's not going to be used for
 duty  touring; I have a bike for that.
Yes , I ve seen the GRX chainsets and have Spa chainsets in mind.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: Asterix, the former Gaul. on 01 July, 2020, 08:12:56 am
A handy article on everything you already know about bike gears.

https://road.cc/content/feature/beginners-guide-understanding-bicycle-gears-171317
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: Tomsk on 01 July, 2020, 08:40:50 am
I don't normally need the triple's granny gear (47/36/24 x 11-30, 8 speed) on my Holdsworth, but it's there for extreme angles of ascent (eg: up to King's YH in the BCM) and fatigue at silly o'clock, somewhere slightly lumpy. The weight penalty of a 24t ring and a bit extra on the crank must be minimal. And the front shifts are much less extreme than a wide range double, plus it all works perfectly with down tube levers - I don't think indexed STI triple levers were ever very slick or reliable. My experience of indexed doubles isn't all that great - my 53/39 on the road bike needs a bit of willpower and force to get a good up-shift, likewise son's 50/34.

Matches the un-cool saddlebag, mudguards, sandals etc. There's nothing so uncool as caring if you're cool, to misquote Andy Warhol.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: sojournermike on 01 July, 2020, 11:15:58 am
I’ve got 50/34 and 13-40 (or 42) in 10 speed on one bike. Although happy, the big ring works for most everything and the little only occasionally. I have considered alternatives such as 46/33 or moving it to 11 speed with some other bits, but haven’t got there yet. I’ve also got 50/34 and 13-32 on another that seems very nice - occasionally spin out downhill, but close ratios and low enough with a rack pack.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: giropaul on 02 July, 2020, 08:45:05 am
Indurain had a triple on for a stage in, I think, the Vuelta. There’s no way he isn’t cool!!

The bike I’m currently riding when I go outside is a race frame , but running a triple. The reason for this that, as I get older, I know I’m dropping cadence, especially on climbs. Using the little chainring I can work on keeping the cadence high.  I’ve still got my usual range of gears available for most of the ride.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: joy of essex on 02 September, 2020, 12:51:21 pm
And so,

I ve decided to go for 34/46.. with an 11/32 or 34 on the rear. Controlled by Dura Ace friction DT, Sora 9 speed mechs

This should cover most eventualities.Think of it as an homage to the Rough Stuff fellowship; though such a bike really ought to have a single chain ring on the front and a 5 speed on the back.

I was tempted by a Tiagra / GRX combination- which would be 46/30 in the front and a 11/34 or larger at the back.

However, the GRX chain set is not a thing of beauty, but we may  return to this  setup if this bike comes N.

Thanks for the advice and observations...
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 02 September, 2020, 01:57:17 pm
If I move to somewhere hillier, I'll need to change my gears.

Tiagra 4500 double shifters

Currently with tiagra derailleur and crankset with 48 / 34 on the front. 32 is biggest sprocket.

would prefer lower gears for grinding up hills.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: Brucey on 02 September, 2020, 02:16:37 pm
If I move to somewhere hillier, I'll need to change my gears.

Tiagra 4500 double shifters

Currently with tiagra derailleur and crankset with 48 / 34 on the front. 32 is biggest sprocket.

would prefer lower gears for grinding up hills.

different chainset, eg GRX one would be easiest..?

cheers
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: Asterix, the former Gaul. on 03 September, 2020, 06:49:38 pm
WRT shifters, I was interested to read this on SHeldon Brown:


Quote
Campagnolo/Shimano 8-speed cassettes have different spacing , so you can't generally get good indexing using a Campagnolo 8-speed wheel with a Shimano shift system or vice versa.

With 7-, 9- and 10-speed systems, the sprocket spacing between brands is close enough that it rarely causes any difficulty in practice.

For perfect matching, you might substitute different spacers, use alternate cable routing, or use a Jtek ShiftMate pulley adaptor.

See my "Spacing Cribsheet " for more details on this.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/speeds.html

and wondered what experience others had with such compatibility issues.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: Brucey on 03 September, 2020, 08:35:12 pm
you could write a book on the subject.  One of the main problems in talking about this is defining what might be considered 'acceptable'.

I reckon at last half of those running 'mixtures' or 'adaptations' are running compromised systems that either don't work quite properly all the time or don't stay working for as long as they should. However whether that is really 'good enough' is very much in the eye of the beholder;  I've used systems which are not perfect and have been intensely irritated by them; others have run such systems and reckon it is 'OK'.

But then maybe I shouldn't be too surprised by this; about half those running a matched index system manage to make them not work properly either.... ::-)

cheers
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: ElyDave on 04 September, 2020, 08:23:23 am
If I move to somewhere hillier, I'll need to change my gears.

Tiagra 4500 double shifters

Currently with tiagra derailleur and crankset with 48 / 34 on the front. 32 is biggest sprocket.

would prefer lower gears for grinding up hills.

How about grinding into the wind?

I was looking at mine the other day thinking what might get replaced with what when things are worn.

Recumbent - set up for touring, and Audax - Ultegra 52/39/30 and 12-32 10-sp on the back, had me up 14% at minimum wobble speed, laden
Roadbike - on the turbo and general/audax use is 48/36/26 with 12-28 10-sp
Spare 50-34 in the shed

I like the triple for big hills on the recumbent, and it's pretty much required anywhere other than here. The thing stopping me putting the 50-34 on the roadbike is the 15-year-old Sora triple shifter that's still going strong, though increasingly narky back might force it.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: sojournermike on 06 September, 2020, 08:22:55 am
WRT shifters, I was interested to read this on SHeldon Brown:


Quote
Campagnolo/Shimano 8-speed cassettes have different spacing , so you can't generally get good indexing using a Campagnolo 8-speed wheel with a Shimano shift system or vice versa.

With 7-, 9- and 10-speed systems, the sprocket spacing between brands is close enough that it rarely causes any difficulty in practice.

For perfect matching, you might substitute different spacers, use alternate cable routing, or use a Jtek ShiftMate pulley adaptor.

See my "Spacing Cribsheet " for more details on this.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/speeds.html

and wondered what experience others had with such compatibility issues.

I built up a bike for my daughter a few years ago with 10 speed shimano shifter and mech (Ultegra, but it shouldn’t matter) and 10 speed campagnolo cassette (I had a campag hub spare) and it’s been perfect. Clean, reliable shifts and no rattling. Never needed to adjust it, even when I put it on the turbo for her with a shimano 10 speed cassette.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: Brucey on 06 September, 2020, 09:03:50 am

I built up a bike for my daughter a few years ago with 10 speed shimano shifter and mech (Ultegra, but it shouldn’t matter) and 10 speed campagnolo cassette (I had a campag hub spare) and it’s been perfect. Clean, reliable shifts and no rattling.

there is a 0.2mm difference in sprocket pitch between campag 10s and shimano 10s.  Many (about half ?) the people that try this arrangement find it doesn't work well enough for them.

cheers
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: sojournermike on 07 September, 2020, 12:57:02 am

I built up a bike for my daughter a few years ago with 10 speed shimano shifter and mech (Ultegra, but it shouldn’t matter) and 10 speed campagnolo cassette (I had a campag hub spare) and it’s been perfect. Clean, reliable shifts and no rattling.

there is a 0.2mm difference in sprocket pitch between campag 10s and shimano 10s.  Many (about half ?) the people that try this arrangement find it doesn't work well enough for them.

cheers

Yes, I was surprised how well it works to be fair. Obviously, someone else might not be so fortunate.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: joy of essex on 08 September, 2020, 09:10:45 am
Which is why the bike has  DT shifters on friction... These are now quite cool, if you believe Henry Wildberry and the next big thing according to Jan Heine.

My view on indexed  groupsets is that they are made as a system that relies on each part to work for the system to work as a whole.  Mix and match might be fun, but the results are often sub-optimal.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 08 September, 2020, 10:39:37 am
If I move to somewhere hillier, I'll need to change my gears.

Tiagra 4500 double shifters

Currently with tiagra derailleur and crankset with 48 / 34 on the front. 32 is biggest sprocket.

would prefer lower gears for grinding up hills.

How about grinding into the wind?

I was looking at mine the other day thinking what might get replaced with what when things are worn.

Recumbent - set up for touring, and Audax - Ultegra 52/39/30 and 12-32 10-sp on the back, had me up 14% at minimum wobble speed, laden
Roadbike - on the turbo and general/audax use is 48/36/26 with 12-28 10-sp
Spare 50-34 in the shed

I like the triple for big hills on the recumbent, and it's pretty much required anywhere other than here. The thing stopping me putting the 50-34 on the roadbike is the 15-year-old Sora triple shifter that's still going strong, though increasingly narky back might force it.

Windy riding is a big reason why I have a 48 on my bike now.

Grinding up long inclines is where I'd want the lower gears at the bottom end.

I think that 34 is the smallest I can get on the crankset.

Hmm, if I fit a different rear derailleur, can I get a bigger sprocket on the back?
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: sojournermike on 08 September, 2020, 11:58:41 am
I think, but you should check, that 4500 will work with a 9 speed mob derailleur. I have an Alex doing duty on an 11-40 cassette.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: Brucey on 08 September, 2020, 12:21:00 pm
translation; 9s MTB derailleur, An LX model...?    ???

In which case yes I agree that will work, any 9s shimano MTB rear mech will shift OK using your present STIs.

In theory road 9s STIs pull fractionally different amounts of cable than MTB 9s ones in the middle of the cassette, which is (I think) why shimano don't endorse this combination in their compatibility tables (the break in the HG ramping is different in 'road'  and 'MTB' 9s cassettes, and this shifters are different to suit the cassette, rather than the RD). However in practice plenty of people run this setup and they don't have a problem. Until very recently you could still buy an XT 9s mech, new, but they seem to have run out now, so there is a more limited choice of decent 9s MTB mechs.

Anyway if you fit one this should get you to a 36T sprocket....?

Also most compact doubles with 110mm BCD five bolt pattern will accept a 33T inside ring (eg made by TA) although in some cases you may have to file the ends of the spider arms slightly to get enough clearance for the chain.

34/32 is 28.7" and at the same wheel size 33/36 is 24.7", which is a worthwhile reduction in the bottom gear ratio.

cheers
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: sojournermike on 08 September, 2020, 10:00:48 pm
translation; 9s MTB derailleur, An LX model...?    ???

In which case yes I agree that will work, any 9s shimano MTB rear mech will shift OK using your present STIs.

In theory road 9s STIs pull fractionally different amounts of cable than MTB 9s ones in the middle of the cassette, which is (I think) why shimano don't endorse this combination in their compatibility tables (the break in the HG ramping is different in 'road'  and 'MTB' 9s cassettes, and this shifters are different to suit the cassette, rather than the RD). However in practice plenty of people run this setup and they don't have a problem. Until very recently you could still buy an XT 9s mech, new, but they seem to have run out now, so there is a more limited choice of decent 9s MTB mechs.

Anyway if you fit one this should get you to a 36T sprocket....?

Also most compact doubles with 110mm BCD five bolt pattern will accept a 33T inside ring (eg made by TA) although in some cases you may have to file the ends of the spider arms slightly to get enough clearance for the chain.

34/32 is 28.7" and at the same wheel size 33/36 is 24.7", which is a worthwhile reduction in the bottom gear ratio.

cheers

Aargh. Auto spell... yes mtb and I think SLX, although it might be XT. Mines on 10 speed with Ultegra shifters, but I thought the pull ratios were the same until 4700 arrived to confuse matters. Thanks Brucey for clarifying.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 29 December, 2021, 12:27:07 pm
Is a GRX going to be compatible with my tiagra shifters? I thought they were 4500 - but that can't be right, as all the tech spec docs for 4500 say they are 9 speed.

https://www.probikekit.co.uk/bicycle-cranksets-and-chainrings/shimano-grx-rx600-double-10-speed-chainset/12649549.html?affil=thggpsad&switchcurrency=GBP&shippingcountry=GB&variation=12649550&&thg_ppc_campaign=71700000077028938&gclid=Cj0KCQiAq7COBhC2ARIsANsPATE85fiwR8ZsgOvQGVL0eZDvwOpJNv-6JnPvyxZO_dYoPFg7WJiWB6EaAoa4EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds  (https://www.probikekit.co.uk/bicycle-cranksets-and-chainrings/shimano-grx-rx600-double-10-speed-chainset/12649549.html?affil=thggpsad&switchcurrency=GBP&shippingcountry=GB&variation=12649550&&thg_ppc_campaign=71700000077028938&gclid=Cj0KCQiAq7COBhC2ARIsANsPATE85fiwR8ZsgOvQGVL0eZDvwOpJNv-6JnPvyxZO_dYoPFg7WJiWB6EaAoa4EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds)

Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 29 December, 2021, 03:12:46 pm
Reading this: https://www.reddit.com/r/bikewrench/comments/f0fo0v/shimano_rx400_rd_with_older_10spd_levers/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/bikewrench/comments/f0fo0v/shimano_rx400_rd_with_older_10spd_levers/)
suggests that a GRX derailleur would not be compatible with tiagra older than 4700.

I'm not planning on replacing the rear mech.

So - front 46/30, rear 32...11. Needs 37 capacity, Tiagra is 39.

32 tooth cassettes seem to be like rocking horse poo though.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: grams on 29 December, 2021, 04:19:10 pm
Which parts are you planning to keep/replace?
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: Lightning Phil on 29 December, 2021, 05:18:08 pm
32 tooth cassettes seem to be like rocking horse poo though.

Unless 9 speed, in which case readily available 😁
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 29 December, 2021, 09:54:37 pm
Which parts are you planning to keep/replace?
KEEP
Shifters, front rear derailleur, BB
REPLACE
Crankset, chain, cassette, jockey wheels
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: grams on 29 December, 2021, 10:55:19 pm
Which parts are you planning to keep/replace?
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 04 January, 2022, 03:37:41 pm
Having confirmed that the shifters are tiagra 4600, I've taken the plunge and ordered
GRX chainset
10sp chain
11-32 Cassette
jockey wheels
BB/chainset tool

Spa were the only place I could find the cassette at anything approaching a 'reasonable' price. They warned me that they have a covid staff issue and NY backlog, so it 'might be a while' before they can despatch. :(

Frightening amount of money for 4 parts.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: ElyDave on 04 January, 2022, 07:54:06 pm
I agree, I've just ordered a 105 front mech and 105 shifter with some gear inners (already have a spare 50-34 chainset), lack of availability and prices both surprised me.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 10 January, 2022, 03:14:13 pm
Having confirmed that the shifters are tiagra 4600, I've taken the plunge and ordered
GRX chainset
10sp chain
11-32 Cassette
jockey wheels
BB/chainset tool

Spa were the only place I could find the cassette at anything approaching a 'reasonable' price. They warned me that they have a covid staff issue and NY backlog, so it 'might be a while' before they can despatch. :(

Frightening amount of money for 4 parts.

Seems I might need to replace front derailleur - GRX crankset has different chainline.

I'll try fitting and see. Need a pedal spanner first.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: MartinC on 11 January, 2022, 12:45:49 pm
Seems I might need to replace front derailleur - GRX crankset has different chainline.

This was my experience when I replaced a Tiagra c'set with a GRX one, the 46mm chainline was just too much for the Tiagra front mech so I had to replace it with an hopelessly overcomplicated GRX one.  You might be lucky, nothing to lose by trying.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 11 January, 2022, 12:50:28 pm
Seems I might need to replace front derailleur - GRX crankset has different chainline.

This was my experience when I replaced a Tiagra c'set with a GRX one, the 46mm chainline was just too much for the Tiagra front mech so I had to replace it with an hopelessly overcomplicated GRX one.  You might be lucky, nothing to lose by trying.
:(

It is 2.5mm

Seems so little, I'm tempted to try something like shimming out the derailleur. If I can get it outboard by even 1mm, that might be enough.

In good news, the pedals came off. Step one complete!
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 11 January, 2022, 08:29:50 pm
Bottom bracket is knackered  :(
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: MartinC on 12 January, 2022, 12:19:01 pm
Seems I might need to replace front derailleur - GRX crankset has different chainline.

This was my experience when I replaced a Tiagra c'set with a GRX one, the 46mm chainline was just too much for the Tiagra front mech so I had to replace it with an hopelessly overcomplicated GRX one.  You might be lucky, nothing to lose by trying.
:(

It is 2.5mm

Seems so little, I'm tempted to try something like shimming out the derailleur. If I can get it outboard by even 1mm, that might be enough....

If I'd known how a GRX FD worked I would've tried that before I bought one.  I probably still will when the GRX mech inevitably seizes up with crud so I'd be interested to know how you get on.  I'd have thought a 34.9 band on an eccentric shim for a 28.6 tube would do the job, depends on what you've got.  A cheap Super Compact chainset (Spa or FSA) on a ST BB will allow you whatever chainline you like.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 12 January, 2022, 12:41:57 pm
What's different and "hopelessly overcomplicated" about the GRX front mech compared to others? I don't think I've ever seen one except in photos.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: MartinC on 12 January, 2022, 03:44:23 pm
It's got an extra set of pivots and convoluted cable routing - I believe it's supposed to maintain the cable tension better and make the mech less affected by the angle the cable arrives out now that BB areas can be larger and internal cable ports vary.  Without having one in your hand it's hard to explain.  If you go to techdocs and dig out the installation instructions it'll give you some idea.  I believe 105 and Ultegra are the same too.  The net result is that the mech has more components and more pivots to collect and harbour crud so they can wear and seize and is more fiddly to fit.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 12 January, 2022, 03:56:07 pm
Thanks. Sounds like something that needs to be looked at to understand it fully.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: mzjo on 12 January, 2022, 09:20:05 pm
It's got an extra set of pivots and convoluted cable routing - I believe it's supposed to maintain the cable tension better and make the mech less affected by the angle the cable arrives out now that BB areas can be larger and internal cable ports vary.  Without having one in your hand it's hard to explain.  If you go to techdocs and dig out the installation instructions it'll give you some idea.  I believe 105 and Ultegra are the same too.  The net result is that the mech has more components and more pivots to collect and harbour crud so they can wear and seize and is more fiddly to fit.

Now you know the great advantage of a 1x transmission. I was thinking  "why not fit a shorter chainset", thinking in terms of square taper but of course these outboard things have axles that are part of the chainset I suppose so they can't be changed or bodged to order, other than mounting the rings inboard and shimming the little one.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: Andy W on 12 January, 2022, 09:36:52 pm
I replaced my shimano 105 7000 series chainset 50/34, for a shimano GRX 46/30 on my Genesis Croix de fer. I wanted lower gears across both chainrings for both bridleway routes, and for a LEJOG unsupported. One of my better decisions with regard to changing bike components. The tall50/11and12 ratios are IMO hopelessly overgeared for this bikes intended use.
The existing shimano 105 7000 front mech would not work without chainrub at either end of its capacity.  I fitted a grx front mech and shifting was and is clean and reliable. It was marginally more fiddly to fit the cable than earlier iterations of both Shimano and Campagnolo front mech in that the cable is secured in a fairly convoluted way. Shimano recommend pairing both GRX front mech and chainset.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: Andy W on 12 January, 2022, 09:44:27 pm
In response to the above post by MJZO, I'd consider a 1 by system with wide range cassette if not racing and are happy with greater cadence ranges that are inevitable with bigger sprocket gaps. My MTB 12speed XT is flawless in operation but then again it's intended use is a far cry from fast road riding
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 13 January, 2022, 08:22:47 am
It's got an extra set of pivots and convoluted cable routing - I believe it's supposed to maintain the cable tension better and make the mech less affected by the angle the cable arrives out now that BB areas can be larger and internal cable ports vary.  Without having one in your hand it's hard to explain.  If you go to techdocs and dig out the installation instructions it'll give you some idea.  I believe 105 and Ultegra are the same too.  The net result is that the mech has more components and more pivots to collect and harbour crud so they can wear and seize and is more fiddly to fit.

Now you know the great advantage of a 1x transmission. I was thinking  "why not fit a shorter chainset", thinking in terms of square taper but of course these outboard things have axles that are part of the chainset I suppose so they can't be changed or bodged to order, other than mounting the rings inboard and shimming the little one.
The rings are already inboard - so there is little that can be done.

I'm going to try to shim out my tiagra front changer.

There is a stupid price difference between grx bracket and band-on derailleurs. Hoping I don't have to replace derailleurs.

Basically I'm doing the same as Andy W, on a CDF.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: ElyDave on 13 January, 2022, 07:19:51 pm
I replaced my shimano 105 7000 series chainset 50/34, for a shimano GRX 46/30 on my Genesis Croix de fer. I wanted lower gears across both chainrings for both bridleway routes, and for a LEJOG unsupported. One of my better decisions with regard to changing bike components. The tall50/11and12 ratios are IMO hopelessly overgeared for this bikes intended use.
The existing shimano 105 7000 front mech would not work without chainrub at either end of its capacity.  I fitted a grx front mech and shifting was and is clean and reliable. It was marginally more fiddly to fit the cable than earlier iterations of both Shimano and Campagnolo front mech in that the cable is secured in a fairly convoluted way. Shimano recommend pairing both GRX front mech and chainset.

Should I be feeling an impending sense of doom? I've just bought a 105 7000 series to fit with a 50/34 front double.
It definitely looks more complicated than the 105 triple that  is on there now.


In response to the above post by MJZO, I'd consider a 1 by system with wide range cassette if not racing and are happy with greater cadence ranges that are inevitable with bigger sprocket gaps. My MTB 12speed XT is flawless in operation but then again it's intended use is a far cry from fast road riding

This is my spec on my Airnimal, 52t up front, 1x11 with a wide range cassette and mtb shifter and derailleur,  with 26" wheels its perfectly geared for audax
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: mzjo on 13 January, 2022, 08:46:14 pm
In response to the above post by MJZO, I'd consider a 1 by system with wide range cassette if not racing and are happy with greater cadence ranges that are inevitable with bigger sprocket gaps. My MTB 12speed XT is flawless in operation but then again it's intended use is a far cry from fast road riding

It was not a serious comment about 1x, more a tongue in cheek commentary on how the complexity of the fd was to encourage you to avoid fitting one!
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: Andy W on 14 January, 2022, 08:11:36 am
Fair enough Mjzo. BTW, Ely Dave, the new 105 7000 front mech isn't that difficult to set up. There are some good YouTube tutorials to follow.
I'm still running campag centaur triple with rivendell bar end shifters, front mech stop screws are set so it's nearly impossible to throw the chain. I occasionally manage to do so ascending a steep hill.
The 105 7000  and grx are far better functionally.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: Andy W on 14 January, 2022, 08:14:31 am
Oops, Centaur triple on my trusty 16 year old Longstaff Compact Audax and Grx on my Genesis cdf TANK.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: Lightning Phil on 14 January, 2022, 11:13:41 am
Reading the posts here. May my current 9 speed triple, rear derailleur, and friction shifters live long and prosper.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: IanDG on 14 January, 2022, 11:23:42 am
Oops, Centaur triple on my trusty 16 year old Longstaff Compact Audax and Grx on my Genesis cdf TANK.

I'm not cool - Stronglight Impact triple on 3 bikes

Surly LHT - 46/34/24
Surly Cross Check - 44/34/24
Genesis Equilibrium  - 48/36/26
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: 100kiloKOM on 14 January, 2022, 11:58:54 am
for anybody interested I run a modern(ish) 105 triple with 26/38/50, with a 105 front mech and early 90's Campag Record Ergo shifters (not specced as triple but the LH lever is effectively a ratchet so works well with a triple)

This system is out of spec and should'nt work in so many ways but with a bit of fettling it seems to work fine.  Although the shift up from 26 to 38 can be a bit clunky if I get the lever movement wrong, was much smoother when a ran a more conventional 30/40/50 set up.
Title: Re: Double chaninsets for touring- what are the cool kids using?
Post by: LateStarter on 15 January, 2022, 05:37:55 am

I'm not cool - ..... triple on 3 bikes

Surly LHT - 46/34/24
Surly Cross Check - 44/34/24
Genesis Equilibrium  - 48/36/26

Nor I

2008 Al Cannondale Touring 2 - 9sp 48/36/26 Shimano cranks & 12-36
2013 Steel Vivente World Randonneur - 9sp 48/36/24 Sugano cranks & 12-36, Sora levers & 3x FD, RD M772

But in 2015 when specing my Lynskey Ti ultimate Audax bike I let the cool "modern doubles can have the same range as a triple" lie influence me and got 10sp 46/30 Velo Orange cranks & 11-36, I hated it from the first ride, not only did I lose a couple or three bottom gears but the ratios I used most were split across the rings requiring constant shifting (& the ultegra 2x FD wasn't all that smooth). So after a year of trying to be cool I gave up and gave it a 9sp setup just like the Vivente and loved it again , could spend much of a day just in the middle ring with occasional big or little as needed.

Having proven my uncoolness I have also mixed the LH Sora 3x lever with the original RH Ultegra 10x (with a 10sp chain & cassette of course) giving a 3 x 10 and the best bit is the RD M772 works perfectly as a 9sp or 10 sp depending on the lever pulls, magic !

The Cannondale has been repurposed as a gravel grinder as it takes bigger tires and the poor Vivente hardly ever gets out these days, should really find it a new home

So un-cool