Author Topic: Grammar that makes you cringe  (Read 857292 times)

Andrij

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1800 on: 24 November, 2011, 09:36:28 pm »
And what's wrong with that?

Aargh!!!!
;D  Andrij.  I pronounce you Complete and Utter GIT   :thumbsup:

iakobski

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1801 on: 25 November, 2011, 06:14:30 pm »
So, do you start a sentence with "So"?
So you heard that too? (Note correct use of "so".  ;D)

Did you notice the person they got on to complain about irritating idioms scattered the phrase "I mean" meaninglessly throughout his interview?

eck

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1802 on: 25 November, 2011, 06:25:33 pm »
It's a bit weird, but actually quite wonderful.

Pingu

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1803 on: 25 November, 2011, 08:59:09 pm »

IMG_5218 by The Pingus, on Flickr

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1804 on: 26 November, 2011, 12:17:02 pm »
Quote
Meanwhile a group of MPs called for a public consultation on how to reduce the harms from smoking in cars.

This doesn't make me cringe, but it does make me wonder how it came about. Is it a simple typo, a careless editing from "harmful effects" or is it a deliberate use of harm as a countable noun?

Harm as a countable noun goes back to Old English. From the Genesis of the 8th century:

Quote
Ealle synt uncre hearmas gewrecene [all our harms are avenged]

Harm has been used in this sense by many good authors over the centuries. For example, Shakespeare, Antony and Cleopatra:

Quote
Ten thousand harms, more than the ills I know,
My idleness doth hatch.

So I don't see how you can in good conscience object to this sense of the word.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1805 on: 26 November, 2011, 12:28:31 pm »
So, do you start a sentence with "So"?

Initial so was good enough for Shakespeare:

Quote from: All's Well that Ends Well
Lafeu. So, my good window of lattice, fare thee well; thy casement I need not open, for I look through thee.

Quote from: Antony and Cleopatra
Thyreus. So, haply, are they friends to Antony.

Quote from: Coriolanus
First Senator. So, your opinion is, Aufidius, / That they of Rome are ent'red in our counsels / And know how we proceed.

FatBloke

  • I come from a land up over!
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1806 on: 26 November, 2011, 06:27:50 pm »
Working with the unemployed, as I do (and soon to become one of them) I am not very optimistic when I see that they've written "looked in paper: nufink!"   :facepalm:
This isn't just a thousand to one shot. This is a professional blood sport. It can happen to you. And it can happen again.

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1807 on: 26 November, 2011, 11:05:23 pm »
So I don't see how you can in good conscience object to this sense of the word.
I don't object, in fact I'm quite keen on counting uncountable nouns! But I'm still not convinced that's actually what was happening in my example.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1808 on: 27 November, 2011, 12:06:28 pm »
Working with the unemployed, as I do (and soon to become one of them) I am not very optimistic when I see that they've written "looked in paper: nufink!"   :facepalm:

Correct use of a colon is encouraging.  Lack of capitalisation less so ;D
Getting there...

Wowbagger

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1809 on: 27 November, 2011, 07:09:22 pm »
Ah, but was Fattersbequotingfromthestartofthesentence?
Quote from: Dez
It doesn’t matter where you start. Just start.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1810 on: 27 November, 2011, 07:26:18 pm »
The American use of  "fit" for the past and past perfect form of "fit" instead of "fitted" drives me bonkers. When reading American books it always trips me up and breaks my concentration as in my head it just doesn't scan properly.

I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1811 on: 29 November, 2011, 02:11:04 pm »
When I comes across paragraphs that start with but or and it seems wrong to me. Has the language progressed while I haven't or it grammatically incorrect?

These constructions have long been used by the best writers in English. Some examples:

Quote from: Jane Austen, Pride and Prejudice
And with these words he hastily left the room, and Elizabeth heard him the next moment open the front door and quit the house.
...
But when the gentlemen entered, Jane was no longer the first object.

Quote from: George Eliot, Middlemarch
And how should Dorothea not marry?
...
But now Celia was really startled at the suspicion which had darted into her mind.

Quote from: Charles Dickens, David Copperfield
And yet my thoughts were idle; not intent on the calamity that weighed upon my heart, but idly loitering near it.
...
But my mother made no answer, except to thank her, and Peggotty went running on in her own fashion.

(I should add that I didn't have to cast around for examples: these were the first three books I looked at.)

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1812 on: 29 November, 2011, 02:15:15 pm »
Funny you should say that - oranges were originally noranges, doncha know (from the Spanish "naranja").
And adders were nadders, nicknames were eeknames, and doubtless many others.

Though I thought oranges were named after the town in the south of France. Maybe not.

Etymology of orange -

Quote
c.1300, from O.Fr. orenge (12c.), from M.L. pomum de orenge, from It. arancia, originally narancia (Venetian naranza), alteration of Arabic naranj, from Pers. narang, from Skt. naranga-s "orange tree," of uncertain origin. Loss of initial n- probably due to confusion with definite article (e.g. une narange, una narancia),

Spanish naranja, Portuguese laranja, Armenian narnji, Azeri narıncı, Hindi nāraṅgī (& similar in some other Indian languages). 
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

jogler

  • mojo operandi
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1813 on: 29 November, 2011, 02:17:43 pm »
the phrase "should or would of" when "should or would have" is the correct grammar

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1814 on: 29 November, 2011, 02:30:24 pm »
When I comes across paragraphs that start with but or and it seems wrong to me. Has the language progressed while I haven't or it grammatically incorrect?

I forgot the biggest example of them all...

Quote from: Bible (Authorized Version)
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
...
2:6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

In total, 9,511 verses in the AV start with And, and 1,150 start with But!

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1815 on: 29 November, 2011, 03:15:22 pm »
You are a mine of information, Gareth.

You're welcome! One of the many great things about the Internet is that it's easy to answer these kinds of questions. There are so many resources: the online Oxford English Dictionary for meaning, etymology and usage; Google ngram viewer for frequency of usage through time; Google advanced book search for finding phrases; Project Gutenberg for public domain literature; the British National Corpus for spoken language; and many others. For your question, Project Gutenberg made the most sense, since the other resources make it hard or impossible to search for words at the start of a paragraph.

mattc

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1816 on: 29 November, 2011, 06:52:43 pm »
...

Project Gutenberg for public domain literature; the British National Corpus for spoken language; and many others. For your question, Project Gutenberg made the most sense, since the other resources make it hard or impossible to search for words at the start of a paragraph.
OK, your chance to make me look stupid(er); how do you search for text on Proj Guten?!?
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1817 on: 29 November, 2011, 07:27:44 pm »
OK, your chance to make me look stupid(er); how do you search for text on Proj Guten?!?

I download copies of the books that I want to search and use Emacs to do the searching.

mattc

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1818 on: 30 November, 2011, 04:03:47 pm »
Oh I see! You were being far less lazy than me  :thumbsup:
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1819 on: 12 December, 2011, 12:07:12 pm »
We are not alone according to the Telegraph.

Quote
Officials at the Department for Transport have produced a 1,500-word report which details ministers' pet grammatical hates in remarkable detail.

The guidance sent to civil servants and MPs lists the particular linguistic errors which infuriate Justine Greening, the Transport Secretary, and her fellow transport ministers.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1820 on: 13 December, 2011, 10:37:57 am »
FFS. First, one of my colleagues actually wrote this crap. Second, another of my colleagues supposedly subbed it before it reached me...

Quote
From the brains behind Shameless, say hello to Mia (Chloë Sevigny) a contract killer who’s already weird life is about to get a whole lot weirder.

Looks like I'm going to have to get my red pen out. And stab someone in the eye with it.

d.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1821 on: 13 December, 2011, 12:08:11 pm »
Never mind the who's/whose spelling error: the subject is missing! What exactly is it that is "from the brains behind Shameless"? A phrase like "the new television series Hit And Miss" is required somewhere.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1822 on: 13 December, 2011, 12:10:51 pm »
Hmm, either would work...

Not quite. The who's/whose cock-up is actually quite trivial and can be rectified easily. Not so bothered by that. What you've got to ask yourself is: who or what is the subject of the opening clause?

[edit: cross-posted with Gareth]

d.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1823 on: 13 December, 2011, 12:19:53 pm »
You could run as, "From the brains behind Shameless: [etc.]".
It's more of a poster blurb than a proper sentence..

Andrew

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1824 on: 13 December, 2011, 12:58:43 pm »
Quote from: citoyen link=topic=2205.msg1115471#msg1115471
What you've got to ask yourself is: who or what is the subject of the opening clause?

Perhaps oddly, I don't find myself concerned by that at all.