Author Topic: Coronavirus and Audax  (Read 91143 times)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Coronavirus and Audax
« Reply #175 on: 15 March, 2020, 11:29:24 am »

I wonder if this is the time to think about a national wage, paid to all irrespective of work.  My understanding of where it has been trialled is that it is generally positive.

Yep, this is a good case for the universal basic income.

Quote

ICU doctors make choices everyday on who to admit but never at this level.  generally they may delay somebodies surgery by a few days or a week.  But these decisions will be orders of magnitude greater and I worry about their longterm mental health.  Knowing that you have condemned 500 people to death in a couple of months must be very hard.

Mental health of everyone is massively overlooked.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: Coronavirus and Audax
« Reply #176 on: 15 March, 2020, 11:30:37 am »
My take on this is as follows.  I am NOT an epidemiologist, but then I chose to train as an engineer instead.  I am not a sociologist, nor an economist either, but I don't think that bans me from having an informed opinion.

I've put a spoiler on it only because it's long, which is my style, and looks at lots of points, which is also my style, and is not tabloid-worthy and so can make for tedious reading if you just wanted a soundbite to dig your teeth into, which is also my style.

(click to show/hide)

I'm comfortable with the idea that my current point of view is naïve or misinformed, but it's based on a fair bit of reading around and piecing things together myself.  I reserve the right to change my point of view based on reasonable and rational counter-arguments, as has already happened thanks to the sharing of thoughts by others on this thread.

FWIW, Ewa and I decided to postpone the Cambridge Pork Pie and Spring Dash next weekend (21 March) on the basis that we have no confidence that we would be able to run it — either because of a ban on gatherings, or a requirement from AUK, or because either of us having to self-isolate.  We would definitely not have been able to run the start/finish the way we like — relaxed, informal, all-welcoming, chatty — and for riders and for us that has become an important part of the events.  Hopefully we'll get to reschedule later in the year when the bulge has passed; if not then so be it.

And I will continue to ride my bike.  I live about 200m from open countryside.  I haven't ever needed hospitalisation for anything, so the risk of me needing it because of an incident on the bike during this crisis is extremely low.  I will ride DIY-by-GPS, or perm-by-GPS, and carry everything I need, plus the Big Bottles.  I probably won't be riding another calendar event for the foreseeable — not to avoid catching Covid-19, but in case I am an asymptomatic carrier.

My point is this: we all need to catch this — just not all at the same time.  And to catch it, we do all need to continue to interact with other people, just limited in order to control the rate of infection, not the overall sum of infection.
Lockdown lethargy. RRTY: wot's that? Can't remember if I'm on #8 or #9 ...

Re: Coronavirus and Audax
« Reply #177 on: 15 March, 2020, 11:34:35 am »
^assumes immunity after infection

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: Coronavirus and Audax
« Reply #178 on: 15 March, 2020, 11:36:03 am »
^assumes immunity after infection

Yes it does.  That is the entire basis of the Government's thinking.  If immunity is found to NOT be a by-product of successfully fighting the infection then the entire policy is completely wrong and will be found to be so.
Lockdown lethargy. RRTY: wot's that? Can't remember if I'm on #8 or #9 ...

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Coronavirus and Audax
« Reply #179 on: 15 March, 2020, 11:36:41 am »
Also assumes no vaccine, which is a year or more away, admittedly.

From our perspective, with an immune-compromised person in the house, the UK government approach whiffs of ‘the weak are disposable/ can’t be saved anyway’.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: Coronavirus and Audax
« Reply #180 on: 15 March, 2020, 11:37:54 am »
Also assumes no vaccine, which is a year or more away, admittedly.

Hmm, not really.  We have flu vaccines, but they are only partly effective at best.   Herd immunity against flu does more to keep the hospitalisation rates down, I think.  I could be wrong, that's just my thinking.

And we are a year away at least, as you say.
Lockdown lethargy. RRTY: wot's that? Can't remember if I'm on #8 or #9 ...

Re: Coronavirus and Audax
« Reply #181 on: 15 March, 2020, 11:39:15 am »


ICU doctors make choices everyday on who to admit but never at this level.  generally they may delay somebodies surgery by a few days or a week.  But these decisions will be orders of magnitude greater and I worry about their longterm mental health.  Knowing that you have condemned 500 people to death in a couple of months must be very hard.

I will continue to commute to work as it is all on backroads and I know the roads well but I have decided in the last few hours that i will not be undertaking any long rides outside until this is over.

I have alluded to this in previous posts. For most of us, CV will entail weeks of boredom and limited choices.

For frontline medical staff it may well be pure horror. I read reports in January of doctors in Wuhan dying of exhaustion.

As I said up thread, I think our contribution may have to be to think about what we can do to avoid increasing their strain. I pray to be wrong but I'm not seeing anything that convinces me that we are in a better position than Italy.

You can do your RRTY next year.

Re: Coronavirus and Audax
« Reply #182 on: 15 March, 2020, 11:50:27 am »

And I will continue to ride my bike.  I live about 200m from open countryside.  I haven't ever needed hospitalisation for anything, so the risk of me needing it because of an incident on the bike during this crisis is extremely low.  I will ride DIY-by-GPS, or perm-by-GPS, and carry everything I need, plus the Big Bottles.  I probably won't be riding another calendar event for the foreseeable — not to avoid catching Covid-19, but in case I am an asymptomatic carrier.

My point is this: we all need to catch this — just not all at the same time.  And to catch it, we do all need to continue to interact with other people, just limited in order to control the rate of infection, not the overall sum of infection.

I think i agree with everything you have said.  I think the only point we disagree on is the riding outside long distance.  For many of us on this board our cycling is part of our mental self care and therefore important.  i agree that there is little or no chance of developing Covid on a DIY.  So far you have not had a need for hospital attendance whilst cycling.  However IF you do have an accident then you will clog up a bed which otherwise would be used to save somebody else.  The odds are very low but at 61 i would like to be given the opportunity of a bed if needed.  Currently in Mial I believe I would not even be offered anything more than IV fluids.

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: Coronavirus and Audax
« Reply #183 on: 15 March, 2020, 12:10:39 pm »

And I will continue to ride my bike.  I live about 200m from open countryside.  I haven't ever needed hospitalisation for anything, so the risk of me needing it because of an incident on the bike during this crisis is extremely low.  I will ride DIY-by-GPS, or perm-by-GPS, and carry everything I need, plus the Big Bottles.  I probably won't be riding another calendar event for the foreseeable — not to avoid catching Covid-19, but in case I am an asymptomatic carrier.

My point is this: we all need to catch this — just not all at the same time.  And to catch it, we do all need to continue to interact with other people, just limited in order to control the rate of infection, not the overall sum of infection.

I think i agree with everything you have said.  I think the only point we disagree on is the riding outside long distance.  For many of us on this board our cycling is part of our mental self care and therefore important.  i agree that there is little or no chance of developing Covid on a DIY.  So far you have not had a need for hospital attendance whilst cycling.  However IF you do have an accident then you will clog up a bed which otherwise would be used to save somebody else.  The odds are very low but at 61 i would like to be given the opportunity of a bed if needed.  Currently in Mial I believe I would not even be offered anything more than IV fluids.

I think that "IF" is different for different people and some are more prone to accidents and injuries than others, we should each know where we fall on that scale.

And there are as-great risks from a traffic accident (as an occupant), as a pedestrian being mown down by a vehicle, or slipping over in the shower.  I'm yet to see mention of a ban on walking, driving ... or baths  :hand:
Lockdown lethargy. RRTY: wot's that? Can't remember if I'm on #8 or #9 ...

S2L

Re: Coronavirus and Audax
« Reply #184 on: 15 March, 2020, 12:20:36 pm »


And there are as-great risks from a traffic accident (as an occupant), as a pedestrian being mown down by a vehicle, or slipping over in the shower.  I'm yet to see mention of a ban on walking, driving ... or baths  :hand:

I think if we get to that point, and we might not get to that point, then it will become eminently clear that nobody should think they are an exception in view of their unique situation.
In Italy they are all complying without moaning, so stiff upper lip <mod>bit removed for niceness. It is a truly difficult situation, but we are a community. Be nice</mod>

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Coronavirus and Audax
« Reply #185 on: 15 March, 2020, 12:28:43 pm »
riding bike solo is a low risk activity. the probability of falling is small. the probability of falling and having an injury is smaller still. the probability of falling and needing medical attention is incredibly small. the probability of falling and needing to be hospitalised?

people overinflating and projecting their fears is a known phenomenon, everyone makes choices based on their* judgement - and that is fine.

* not strictly _their_ as it comes from what they like to read, their social circle, confirmation bias etc.

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: Coronavirus and Audax
« Reply #186 on: 15 March, 2020, 12:31:10 pm »
From our perspective, with an immune-compromised person in the house, the UK government approach whiffs of ‘the weak are disposable/ can’t be saved anyway’.

Not quite, I think.  Achieving a decent level of herd immunity should greatly reduce the risk of the vulnerable coming into contact with a infectious carrier — not to zero, but close to, and not now but at sometime in the future.  That's possibly the best that could ever be achieved, I think.

However, during this first phase then there is a balancing act going on — achieving herd immunity while keeping the collateral mortality rate as low as possible — and I don't know whether to trust that either the government has its hands firmly enough on the levers.  Nor that UK society at large will obey, for example: last night I decided to NOT go to friends' join 60th+70th birthday bash in the pub around the corner; it just went against my feeling of what's appropriate/proportionate at this time.  One of my close friends did go, even though they care for elderly parents with lung-related issues  ???

I agree with you that this is a frightening time, effectively the whole population having to be triaged due to limited intensive care facilities.  Not a decision I would have liked to make.

EDIT — actually, re-reading my own post, I realise I contradict myself.  I DO agree with you.  The government is having to do a population-level triage, and the basis of that is that there are "Those who are unlikely to live, regardless of what care they receive" versus "Those for whom immediate care might make a positive difference in outcome" (Wikipedia), based on the care available at that moment in that location.  Whether it assumes "the weak are disposable" I don't know; from outside I see it more as "the roll of the dice is going to affect the susceptible more than everyone else".
Lockdown lethargy. RRTY: wot's that? Can't remember if I'm on #8 or #9 ...

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Coronavirus and Audax
« Reply #187 on: 15 March, 2020, 12:38:18 pm »
With some people being symptomless and with virus symptoms similar to other diseases (flu) and without widespread testing, nobody can be sure who has already had the virus and is presumably immune. The only viable option in those circumstances is to assume that everybody is infected at all times, including yourself, for the next year. Hopefully a viable vaccine comes along.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: Coronavirus and Audax
« Reply #188 on: 15 March, 2020, 12:41:25 pm »
In Italy they are all complying without moaning, so stiff upper lip <mod>bit removed for niceness. It is a truly difficult situation, but we are a community. Be nice</mod>

Italy is an exception — their intensive care facilities are already overwhelmed many times over.  If we (the UK) do get to that point then, as I said, I reserve the right to change my mind. 

Right now I don't think I'm being selfish with my "I'll continue to ride my bike" line: I am being pragmatic and basing it on rational and reasonable argument and real data.  The risks from riding my bike are no greater than walking to the shops, or standing in a bath to have a shower, probably less-so the latter.  I am taking the corners a little gentler, just to be on the safe side.  And by "risks" I mean "medical assistance for a serious injury".

The risks of NOT riding for any length of time are long-term health issues and general loss of well-being.  I don't own a turbo, that's what the outdoors is for.
Lockdown lethargy. RRTY: wot's that? Can't remember if I'm on #8 or #9 ...

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: Coronavirus and Audax
« Reply #189 on: 15 March, 2020, 12:48:34 pm »
With some people being symptomless and symptoms similar to other diseases (flu) and without widespread testing, nobody can be sure who has already had the virus and is presumably immune. The only viable option is to assume that everybody is infected at all times, including yourself, for the next year. Hopefully a viable vaccine comes along.

Agreed.  And something I do worry about.
Lockdown lethargy. RRTY: wot's that? Can't remember if I'm on #8 or #9 ...

Re: Coronavirus and Audax
« Reply #190 on: 15 March, 2020, 12:59:21 pm »
In Italy they are all complying without moaning, so stiff upper lip <mod>bit removed for niceness. It is a truly difficult situation, but we are a community. Be nice</mod>

Italy is an exception — their intensive care facilities are already overwhelmed many times over.  If we (the UK) do get to that point then, as I said, I reserve the right to change my mind. 

Right now I don't think I'm being selfish with my "I'll continue to ride my bike" line: I am being pragmatic and basing it on rational and reasonable argument and real data.  The risks from riding my bike are no greater than walking to the shops, or standing in a bath to have a shower, probably less-so the latter.  I am taking the corners a little gentler, just to be on the safe side.  And by "risks" I mean "medical assistance for a serious injury".

The risks of NOT riding for any length of the time are long-term health issues and general loss of well-being.  I don't own a turbo, that's what the outdoors is for.


A point I thought about on my run just now is that I am entirely comfortable running instead of cycling. It meets the ‘headspace’ / immune and health support requirement very nicely for me. So I’m learning to run slowly and enjoying. I can understand the feelings and decision of those who choose to continue riding solo, who cannot/have never enjoyed running.

My perspective is that I have required hospital treatment after falling off my bike. Unlikely, but probably more likely than when I run.

As Flatus said upthread, I am praying that I am wrong about where this is heading and hoping that ‘flying the hovercraft’ proves manageable.

Martin

Re: Coronavirus and Audax
« Reply #191 on: 15 March, 2020, 01:02:19 pm »
Is there a "Coronavirus and not Audax" thread anywhere?

talking of general cycling I was due to go on a 4 day cycling trip to Paris in 2 weeks which is clearly not going to happen, however it's confounded by;

1. I can't cancel and claim on travel insurance yet because FCO advice (and even the French government's) has not actually yet advised against it.
2. My flights / ferry can be changed for free to a later date but I've no idea if / when I'll be able to reschedule within the next 13 days.
3. 2 of the nights I've booked in hotels are now non-refundable via the booking website so no idea if I'll get a refund on them.
4. If France comes out with Italy and Spain and bans all leisure cycling I clearly can't get about while there, but would the insurance company class that as a valid reason to cancel?

I think a lot of people are going to lose a lot of money in every aspect from travel to work income, and the insurers / PTB will weasel out of it.

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Coronavirus and Audax
« Reply #192 on: 15 March, 2020, 01:09:25 pm »
DIfficult choice here, I was in two minds about the Pork Pie this coming weekend and the Woodman, on my birthday.

I do have a turbo but it's deadly tedious to be doing nothing but - I've only managedt to get two utility rides in over the last two months.  REgular CV exercise significantly increases the insulin sensitivity in people like me, stress has the opposite effect of raising blood sugar due to the effect of adrenaline/cortisol.  This time of year is particularly high stress, so getting out and doing something like a 100 is a definite physical as well as mental health boost. 

The other side of it, with what is an autoimmune disease is that there would be a significant effect on blood sugar control with the potential to head towards ketoacidosis which can be lifethreatening, so it is very much a trade off between the two.   And that's without the risk of infecting a son with special needs and recent pneumonia. 

I think I'll try and keep getting out there, maybe not for the 100km of an audax, but as and when the sunshine allows for an hour or two. A full year on the turbo is a really poor prospect indeed, and I can't see this being over until the autumn at least.  Maybe I'll follow SojournerMike's example and run a bit more.
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

StevieB

  • I'm an embarrassment to my bicycle!
Re: Coronavirus and Audax
« Reply #193 on: 15 March, 2020, 01:18:08 pm »
If we all stick to challenging people's attitude, and remember they are challenging our attitude, then no need to get personal or abusive...

The attitude I'd like to challenge is:

  "It has not happened here / to me,
  therefore it might never happen,
  therefore I should carry on as normal (within the law),
  and NOT panic!"


IMO that is bound to speed the spread of the virus, compared to:

  "I'm not going to take any unnecessary risks, to my health or that of others."


It may be self-flagellation, but it still hurts

Re: Coronavirus and Audax
« Reply #194 on: 15 March, 2020, 01:21:21 pm »
 :thumbsup:
If we all stick to challenging people's attitude, and remember they are challenging our attitude, then no need to get personal or abusive...

The attitude I'd like to challenge is:

  "It has not happened here / to me,
  therefore it might never happen,
  therefore I should carry on as normal (within the law),
  and NOT panic!"


IMO that is bound to speed the spread of the virus, compared to:

  "I'm not going to take any unnecessary risks, to my health or that of others."

StevieB

  • I'm an embarrassment to my bicycle!
Re: Coronavirus and Audax
« Reply #195 on: 15 March, 2020, 01:29:04 pm »
To those who are only prepared to listen to experts (and let's be honest - none of us have experienced a pandemic before, including our politicians and our media)... here is one, please take the trouble to listen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhbAAgS6Kps
It may be self-flagellation, but it still hurts

IanDG

  • The p*** artist formerly known as 'Windy'
    • the_dandg_rouleur
Re: Coronavirus and Audax
« Reply #196 on: 15 March, 2020, 01:39:51 pm »
Difficult decision but sent my first DNS apologies today. Main reason is that I know I suffer if I get the slightest cold and have chest problems for weeks (sometimes months) afterwards - so I could benefit from not putting myself at risk. The other reason is that I'm a 'phlegmy' person. When exercising I cough, spit and blow often - others could therefore benefit if I'm not around sending my germs into the environment.

I enjoy running, but can't due to injuries. So I'll continue cycling (>90% of my cycling is solo in any case) as I'd struggle mentally if I stopped completely.

Davef

Re: Coronavirus and Audax
« Reply #197 on: 15 March, 2020, 02:01:39 pm »
^assumes immunity after infection

Yes it does.  That is the entire basis of the Government's thinking.  If immunity is found to NOT be a by-product of successfully fighting the infection then the entire policy is completely wrong and will be found to be so.
Unfortunately in the incredibly unlikely scenario that immunity is not achieved post recovery we are screwed as that means no vaccine will be possible either.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Re: Coronavirus and Audax
« Reply #198 on: 15 March, 2020, 02:06:07 pm »
It is good to see that 'experts' are back in vogue.

The programme Pandemic is available on iplayer.  It is from 2018 but very relevant.

Why take unnecessary risks and why risk the health and wellbeing of others?

Re: Coronavirus and Audax
« Reply #199 on: 15 March, 2020, 02:16:52 pm »
^this

Your audax points arent, perhaps, as important as you might think they are

I think it would be a good time for AUK to suspend RRtY. It will stop people taking unnecessary risks...

J
Surely DIYs solve that problem?

In Italy and Spain you can't cycle for sport anymore... it is perceived to be an activity that might put you at risk to end up in A&E...
Of course then it comes down to what is cycling as a sport... which basically is lycra Vs non lycra

The situation in France is that all activities are suspended. For the FF Vélo (FFCT) this is the communiqué (off the site of an affiliate but it's the communiqué all the same:  http://sarthe.ffvelo.fr/
For UFOLEP it is here: https://www.ufolep.org/?titre=communique-ufolep---coronavirus&mode=actualites&rubrique=0&id=151772

I have not seen anywhere a mention of a 10 person limit. As far as I can tell most, if not all, of the other fédérations are following the same line which is that dictated by the Minister for Sport.

The government has declared since yesterday that all unnecessary journeys should be avoided. I don't think that recreational cycling would be considered as an essential journey so even though today is a gorgeous day just made for a ride out I am going to dig the garden.

I am completely in agreement with Flatus (rare I know but it does happen) that this is a fast changing situation and all in this post may be well out of date by tomorrow evening (judging by the experience on the continent). I am also in sympathy with LWaB that for some cycling (or even just getting out) may well be necessary or essential for your sanity. I think that might come in the category of essential journey but I am waiting to see if one would have to convince the law of the fact.

I will not get into any arguement about gig working but as one who is a part-time employee on a minimum hourly wage in an activity which will be hit by restrictions I don't get any compensation when I don't work. I will earn very little (if at all) for the next couple of months. So be it - it's not part of the arguement about riding or not riding audax events in the current situation
Is there a "Coronavirus and not Audax" thread anywhere?

talking of general cycling I was due to go on a 4 day cycling trip to Paris in 2 weeks which is clearly not going to happen, however it's confounded by;

1. I can't cancel and claim on travel insurance yet because FCO advice (and even the French government's) has not actually yet advised against it.
2. My flights / ferry can be changed for free to a later date but I've no idea if / when I'll be able to reschedule within the next 13 days.
3. 2 of the nights I've booked in hotels are now non-refundable via the booking website so no idea if I'll get a refund on them.
4. If France comes out with Italy and Spain and bans all leisure cycling I clearly can't get about while there, but would the insurance company class that as a valid reason to cancel?

I think a lot of people are going to lose a lot of money in every aspect from travel to work income, and the insurers / PTB will weasel out of it.


I was meant to be going to my grandson's  christening in Oxford next week-end. All now cancelled - wife works in ICU and sister-in-law is in the regional civil service so both have movement restrictions and could be requisitioned (although at the moment there are only 3 cases in Limoges hospital). I will be cancelling ferries and hotels for the trip this week - ferries to be used by the end of the year if I understand DFDS, hotels normally to be just cancelled as I'm in the time limit.