Author Topic: Power cut  (Read 3337 times)

Re: Power cut
« Reply #25 on: 29 November, 2021, 02:17:06 pm »
I survived Stornoway powercuts for 21 years. Multifuel stove for some warmth and camping stoves for food - sorted.

So far (touch wood) we have had a total of two power cuts in 10months. Both just for a few hours.

Gas cooker set up to run from bottled gas.

Woodburner in one room - but short of wood.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

ppg

Re: Power cut
« Reply #26 on: 29 November, 2021, 03:44:40 pm »
Had a 10 minute spell yesterday evening with 7 ONs & OFFs - quite entertaining looking out at the whole village blinking like a Xmas tree.

Less entertaining when it happened again at 3am this morning.

The bedroom phone bleeps I could just about ignore, but not the gas detector with helpful voice warnings  ???

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Power cut
« Reply #27 on: 29 November, 2021, 03:46:50 pm »
*laughs in Selly Oak*

nicknack

  • Hornblower
Re: Power cut
« Reply #28 on: 05 December, 2021, 12:41:54 pm »
Today's excitement was waking up to a chilly house and no electrons to be had anywhere. When I wandered into the kitchen I spied a van parked outside with flashing lights. On investigation outside (in rain in jimjams) I see the cable that supplies our place lying in the road. I've no idea how it came to be thus and neither had the chap in the van who was waiting for other vans and cherry pickers. Which duly turned up. A couple of hours later all was restored.
There's no vibrations, but wait.

Re: Power cut
« Reply #29 on: 07 December, 2021, 10:30:01 pm »
It took a very long time for the media to catch up with the fact that tens of thousands of households in North England and Scotland were without power. Yes it was a bad storm, heavy snow combined with a freezing northerly gale which turned the snow to thick, solid ice. But not unique. A similar storm in the 90s collapsed the entire roof of our big commercial glasshouses.

The powergrid engineers have worked their socks off, but not helped by the lack of investment in the infrastructure for decades. We are hearing stories of rotten poles and obsolete equipment 40-50 years old, for which replacements are not available, so needing a complete re-build. Trees near lines not being cut back as regularly as they used to, and so on.

That's no lights, no heating, no cooking, no way of keeping fridge or freezer cold, no internet, no mobile phone connection (no power to the mast), often no landline as BT is trying to get rid of them, very poor FM reception on the battery radio, for some no water, even the waste water treament systems use electric!

We were without electric for 6 days and nights. About 10 years ago we invested in a back-up generator so could run that for an hour or so two or three times a day, enough for light and to protect the fridge and freezer. We could use a kettle, microwave, small heater, but not all at once! We checked on a few neighbours and thought we could do fine. By the second day we needed more fuel for the genny. It was still snowing, and the roads were poor, so the Defender was fired up. But petrol pumps do not work without electric, so that was a 40 mile round trip to the nearest pumps. And pay cash as the card machines don't work. No receipt as the tills weren't working. (At this stage we were not thinking of needing receipts for compensation). Then it was a daily trip for fuel... Shops all shut, and food in their fridges and freezers thrown out.

What has made folks so angry is the lack of information.
Powergrid were posting on social media and sending e-mails to people who had no way of accessing them. With false information. There was absolutely no contingency planning to look after customers. We all felt toatally abandoned. Other than neighbours, the first check on our welfare was after 5 days! They tried to pursuade people to stay with friends or book into a hotel, but leaving a rural property is not that simple. A friend walked up to tell us that a burger and hot dog van was in the village. We wouldn't have known otherwise, even though we walked into the village every day.

We have become so dependent on electric and communications.
Some of my neighbours are still without power and going into a twelth night.....










Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Power cut
« Reply #30 on: 07 December, 2021, 11:01:07 pm »
Thats awful.

Makes our 10 hours look like luxury.

If you have a Tory MP ask them about investment for this kind of scenario and kick up a stink. If you haven’t, kick up a stink.
It is simpler than it looks.

Re: Power cut
« Reply #31 on: 08 December, 2021, 12:17:18 am »
There are lots of problems, but the big one with communications  is there seems to be no plan B.

Due to both commercial decisions on cost and changes in technology nothing now is designed to withstand a power outage of more than a few hours.*  I would be interested to know how much SSE and Northern Power grids work was hampered by lack of mobile communications.

What's even more worrying is that emergency services comms is being moved from TETRA to EE 4G. I have read a few govt planning documents. No mention of power failure autonomy.
( I'm sure the TETRA base stations were affected as well tho. It's impossible to have more than a few to ten hours of battery support with modern telecoms, it just uses too much power. )

I'm afraid the plain old telephone systems days are numbered. System X and the staff with skills to support it and repair  the copper and aluminium connections. Writing to your MP for a stay of execution is pointless. Asking for a plan B may be of more use.

* In the good ol' days the telephone exchange had batteries and a generator. You had a phone that was plugged into the wall and was powered from that same generator. I had once to call bt and inform them that our local exchange had been running on generator for seven days... Have not heard it run for years, bet it's been decommissioned

There is a sort of plan B.  It involves a man an a towable generator, absolutely fine for one isolated power failure in reasonable weather conditions ..

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Power cut
« Reply #32 on: 08 December, 2021, 09:35:27 am »
Trees being allowed to grow too near lines is frequently mentioned in a rail-fail context too. I presume the power stations were still running so part of the solution might be duplicate lines and transformers.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Power cut
« Reply #33 on: 08 December, 2021, 09:40:05 am »
Network Rail have done a lot of clearing of trees from lines in the last decade, I think.
It is simpler than it looks.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Power cut
« Reply #34 on: 08 December, 2021, 09:46:42 am »
The recent Salisbury rail crash appears to have been caused by leaves on the line, causing the train to slide through a red signal despite correct driver procedure and TPWS action.  One of the industry magazines dug out a nice steam-era photo of the junction showing zero trees in the area (they were kept cut back to prevent lineside fires).  Now, it is thickly wooded.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Power cut
« Reply #35 on: 08 December, 2021, 09:56:35 am »
Quote
often no landline as BT is trying to get rid of them

that seems unlikely, unless you are referring to the switch to fibre rather than copper.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Power cut
« Reply #36 on: 08 December, 2021, 10:03:14 am »
BT unhelpfully suggest that you have an alternative phone facility available after the switch.  Two cans and a long piece of string?
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Power cut
« Reply #37 on: 08 December, 2021, 10:08:17 am »
I thought the Salisbury crash was due to worn out rails rather than leaves? I'm sure you've seen that video where they sent a train through after they'd cleared the wreckage and it had no traction.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Power cut
« Reply #38 on: 08 December, 2021, 10:30:51 am »
Network Rail have done a lot of clearing of trees from lines in the last decade, I think.
And causing more flooding and landslides. The trees can absorb a lot of water, and their roots bind the slopes together.

ian

Re: Power cut
« Reply #39 on: 08 December, 2021, 10:36:20 am »
Network Rail have done a lot of clearing of trees from lines in the last decade, I think.
And causing more flooding and landslides. The trees can absorb a lot of water, and their roots bind the slopes together.

That's what happened around here, they clearcut the trees on the embankments and well, you can guess what happened next. Well, National Rail couldn't, but they're a little bit special.

Tim Hall

  • Victoria is my queen
Re: Power cut
« Reply #40 on: 08 December, 2021, 12:17:32 pm »
Network Rail have done a lot of clearing of trees from lines in the last decade, I think.
And causing more flooding and landslides. The trees can absorb a lot of water, and their roots bind the slopes together.

That's what happened around here, they clearcut the trees on the embankments and well, you can guess what happened next. Well, National Rail couldn't, but they're a little bit special.
If only they employed loads of geotechnical engineers to look at this sort of problem. Oh wait. They do.
There are two ways you can get exercise out of a bicycle: you can
"overhaul" it, or you can ride it.  (Jerome K Jerome)

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Power cut
« Reply #41 on: 08 December, 2021, 12:36:05 pm »
Ultimately, I think the problem of power cut resilience is more likely to be solved by small-scale renewables and battery storage than it is by the utility/telecoms companies flying in the face of capitalism.  The alternative would require a government interested in providing robust public services.

Beardy

  • Shedist
Re: Power cut
« Reply #42 on: 08 December, 2021, 01:22:45 pm »
Network Rail have done a lot of clearing of trees from lines in the last decade, I think.
And causing more flooding and landslides. The trees can absorb a lot of water, and their roots bind the slopes together.

That's what happened around here, they clearcut the trees on the embankments and well, you can guess what happened next. Well, National Rail couldn't, but they're a little bit special.
If only they employed loads of geotechnical engineers to look at this sort of problem. Oh wait. They do.
Possibly, but not in the tree chopping down department. That’s operations, and the geotechnical engineers are in the infrastructure department.
For every complex problem in the world, there is a simple and easily understood solution that’s wrong.

ian

Re: Power cut
« Reply #43 on: 08 December, 2021, 01:50:39 pm »
Network Rail have done a lot of clearing of trees from lines in the last decade, I think.
And causing more flooding and landslides. The trees can absorb a lot of water, and their roots bind the slopes together.

That's what happened around here, they clearcut the trees on the embankments and well, you can guess what happened next. Well, National Rail couldn't, but they're a little bit special.
If only they employed loads of geotechnical engineers to look at this sort of problem. Oh wait. They do.

Sadly, I think they just subcontract it to any contractor who can claim to have sufficient hi-viz and chainsaws. Having seen them in action behind our previous house (which backed onto the train line to Beckenham Junction) I wouldn't put much stock in them following precise instructions (like don't cut off branches while you are standing under them, much hilarity). Honestly, I'm sure they left with a lot fewer arms than they started with.

Hence you weren't getting between Redhill and Tonbridge or Oxted and East Grinstead, or Edenbridge to Cowden etc. for quite a long time while they reconstructed.

I think they blamed the rain (but that's not exactly an unknowable these days), but you can guess what they'd done to every failed embankment first.

Re: Power cut
« Reply #44 on: 08 December, 2021, 01:58:52 pm »
Quote
Ultimately, I think the problem of power cut resilience is more likely to be solved by small-scale renewables and battery storage...
Kim, agree, but  that is a solution only available for those with money, tho' there are some community projects.
 
Quote
... than it is by the utility/telecoms companies flying in the face of capitalism.  The alternative would require a government interested in providing robust public services.
Agree, my previous post I pointed out that telecomms is, due to technology changes, becoming less robust. IMO impossible to engineer for the expected future. I suggest that we need a civil emergency plan and someone to answer the 'what if' questions. Storm Arwen is just a taster of worse things to come.


Beardy

  • Shedist
Re: Power cut
« Reply #45 on: 08 December, 2021, 02:18:07 pm »
Resilience is fairly straightforward to engineer, but it costs money. No company board wants to sign off millions in spending on a low probability occurrence irrespective of the level of impact. But as many are beginning to find out those 100 year events are coming in with shocking regularity at the moment and more than one business is going to the wall as a consequence.
For every complex problem in the world, there is a simple and easily understood solution that’s wrong.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Power cut
« Reply #46 on: 08 December, 2021, 09:35:09 pm »


Humans are really really shit at understanding and comprehending risk. As such asking people to spend money to be prepared for low frequency, high impact events is really hard.

Capitalism makes it worse.

We're not prepared for power outages. We're not prepared for a pandemic. The reasoning is the same.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/