Perm events - Why no explanation of the route

[Aunt Maud]

You have to do a bit of legwork and ask about. That's half the fun of it, finding out where you want to go or what you want to do, surely.

I'll admit it can be a bit of a struggle finding out about a "400km brevet that starts from somewhere" but if it's too much for you, forget that one and chose another or make your own.

Asking for it for free when someone has gone to the trouble of sorting it all out and who expects people to enter is a bit rich, and goes in the same category as tagging along on the day of an event without paying.

[postie]

At the end of the day all organizers are volunteers and have jobs,kids,other things to worry about,like working, paying the morgage etc. I guess unfortunately. Some of us dont have the time we would like to develop our perm to the standard we/other people might like. Plus reading that someone just wants the routes online so he can ride them for free is not going please many. Think on

[Wycombewheeler]

I've put a list of controls on each of the Cambrian Series rides and set up a link to an approximate route map with a Google Maps link.  This is a bit of a hostage to fortune as ever since the upgrade downgrade to Doogle Maps a couple of years ago I've found it somewhat unreliable and I get messages now going "the XYZ route doesn't go through Ruthin!", which it didn't when I put the link up but it does now, but I'm trying my best with the technology at my disposal.  (It took a *&**&^ long time to try to bend Google Maps into the right routes in the first place too)

As Tomsk upthread suggested - if in doubt email the organiser.   I can't speak for all but I'm happy to answer questions about the rides and provide info (especially on the longer ones) about the route, its particular challenges, and any useful ride info (like there is a cafe in Lampeter that opens at 7am on weekdays and a 24-hour petrol station west of Carmarthen on the A40 on the Fishguard - Carmarthen leg. 

I appreciate its not super-slick but I hope its helpful.  I guess at some point I'll have to get out of Dark Ages and set up some gpx files, or perhaps I could hand over organsing the Cambrian Permanents to someone who wants to set up about 10,000km of GPX tracks 

Yes pretty sure I highlighted the Cambrian series as a good example, if I lived lically I would probably be ticking them off one by one.
The only down side is if you filter by region for Wales they don't come up. Even worse if you go to the map of perms they are shown in Basingstoke. So there is some database that is using the organisers address rather than the start point.
I appreciate the answer may be, there are shortcomings in the website and we don't have the resources to fix it. But it really doesn't help people enter perms. Probably why I've done 5 DIY and not one perm.

Seems a shame when organisers put some much effort into devising good routes, creating gpx and route sheets validating rides etc etc but riders can't easily find which routes are convenient to them.
I think I found most success looking for perms with the same name as an event near me then looking for other perms by ghe same organiser. Once you know which event you want things become more straightforward.

I just tried filtering for events in the southeast, results are mixed;

Dales tour (doubt this is southeast)
Taste of the test and anoraks delight. These are local but I'd never know from the page.
Cambrian series (definitely not southeast)
A few other blocks which may or may not be southeast as the names are not obvious.

And then halfway down  Calais to brindisi!
While this is interesting to me in general, when I am looking for a perm to keep my rrty going in December when calendar events are few and far between it isn't very helpful.

[Delph Cyclist]

Even more basic than that; how do I choose which perm to enter? If I don't even know which ones are within 100 miles of me.

That one should be easy - ask on here for recommendations of good Perms from, in your case I would guess, Wycombe.  Now, if you were from the Peak Audax area, I'd refer you to www.PeakAudax.co.uk for some excellent Perms, and all the information you could ever wish for.

I have to assume that some Perm organisers just don't want the business.  Perhaps they only set up their Perms for themselves to ride, or perhaps they are old Perms that have been forgotten about and ought to have been taken off.  The wherewithal to add even the most basic of information to the AUK website exists, but it has to be adopted by the Organiser him/herself.  Heck, they could always ask for some help!

There are some Perms  I'd love to do, but when they don't even have an entry fee listed, it's been enough of a block for me not to bother, but you've spurred me to ask the Organiser now.

[Hummers]

Hmmmm...interesting.

I have had someone email me about not being able to download the GPX of one of my perms which I have rectified. Oddly, I have heard nothing more from them.

H

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

I just tried filtering for events in the southeast, results are mixed;

Dales tour (doubt this is southeast)
Taste of the test and anoraks delight. These are local but I'd never know from the page.
Cambrian series (definitely not southeast)
A few other blocks which may or may not be southeast as the names are not obvious.

And then halfway down  Calais to brindisi!
While this is interesting to me in general, when I am looking for a perm to keep my rrty going in December when calendar events are few and far between it isn't very helpful.

I've just gone in and checked.  Whatever I do to change the location of the event it keeps defaulting to Hampshire, even when I've entered Powys or Gwynedd!  So it seems to be a feature of the website.  At least I can assure everyone that the Cambrian Series are in Wales and they go all over Wales, events have controls as far afield as Chepstow, Fishguard, Pwllheli, Conwy, and Mold    They are also designed to have gratuitous amounts of hills and random amounts of sheep.  It will almost certainly rain on the ride unless you do it in January or February when it will probably snow.  And they have been some of the best days (and nights) I've ever had on a bike, even the one I didn't finish this year.   

[Feanor]

I just tried filtering for events in the southeast, results are mixed;

Dales tour (doubt this is southeast)
Taste of the test and anoraks delight. These are local but I'd never know from the page.
Cambrian series (definitely not southeast)
A few other blocks which may or may not be southeast as the names are not obvious.

And then halfway down  Calais to brindisi!
While this is interesting to me in general, when I am looking for a perm to keep my rrty going in December when calendar events are few and far between it isn't very helpful.

I've just gone in and checked.  Whatever I do to change the location of the event it keeps defaulting to Hampshire, even when I've entered Powys or Gwynedd!  So it seems to be a feature of the website. 

AIUI, the events are listed according to the home address of the org, not where they actually run.

[aidan.f]

Hmmmm...interesting.

I have had someone email me about not being able to download the GPX of one of my perms which I have rectified. Oddly, I have heard nothing more from them.

Hummers, how  about  a  few GPX diversions down  muddy lanes and through farmyards that are 'corrected' when you receive an entry 

You can put your own text inside a gpx file .. perhaps include the AUK creative commons copyright licence.

[Wycombewheeler]

I just tried filtering for events in the southeast, results are mixed;

Dales tour (doubt this is southeast)
Taste of the test and anoraks delight. These are local but I'd never know from the page.
Cambrian series (definitely not southeast)
A few other blocks which may or may not be southeast as the names are not obvious.

And then halfway down  Calais to brindisi!
While this is interesting to me in general, when I am looking for a perm to keep my rrty going in December when calendar events are few and far between it isn't very helpful.

I've just gone in and checked.  Whatever I do to change the location of the event it keeps defaulting to Hampshire, even when I've entered Powys or Gwynedd!  So it seems to be a feature of the website. 

AIUI, the events are listed according to the home address of the org, not where they actually run.

I came to that conclusion. I think it is not very helpful.

[drossall]

At the end of the day all organizers are volunteers and have jobs,kids,other things to worry about,like working, paying the morgage etc. I guess unfortunately. Some of us dont have the time we would like to develop our perm to the standard we/other people might like. Plus reading that someone just wants the routes online so he can ride them for free is not going please many. Think on

This, for me. I'd rather focus on being grateful for what organisers do do, than on suggesting all the extra things that they could do as well. Of course, more information may get more riders, so some advice to organisers may be good. But it's so easy to sound ungrateful when trying to "improve the standards" of what volunteers do.

[wilkyboy]

I've just gone in and checked.  Whatever I do to change the location of the event it keeps defaulting to Hampshire, even when I've entered Powys or Gwynedd!  So it seems to be a feature of the website.  At least I can assure everyone that the Cambrian Series are in Wales and they go all over Wales, events have controls as far afield as Chepstow, Fishguard, Pwllheli, Conwy, and Mold    They are also designed to have gratuitous amounts of hills and random amounts of sheep.  It will almost certainly rain on the ride unless you do it in January or February when it will probably snow.  And they have been some of the best days (and nights) I've ever had on a bike, even the one I didn't finish this year.   

Mold is a very fine market town with quite a lot of history; however, I wouldn't want to live there* ... North Wales is my favourite part of the UK bar none    I have a Cambrian brevet in a drawer somewhere, but I've never quite got around to riding it — it's probably expired by now.

On marking the start locations — you move the hovering pointer around the map to where you want it and — and this is the important bit — you must click once on it to "activate" its position.  It isn't at all clear, but once I worked it out then this has worked for me and all the start points of my perms are in exactly the correct locations across Cambridge 


* I grew up just over the hill from there.

[Somnolent]

The space available for adding information to the AUK pages is very limited. 

Limited? yes.
Too limited? not IMO
See the perm linked in my sig line below for an example where just about all the necessary information has been shoe-horned in, and what's not on the front page is attached to the (downloadable) routesheet - before you pays your money.  If someone wants to ride them for free, sans validation, that's fine, it's no extra work for me.  By providing the information upfront I've (probably) had many more 'customers' - and more than a few appreciative post-ride comments.  (spot the shameless plug - again)

There's an additional problem with the paucity of information available on some perms.
I want to make a new perm at 300km (and provide the same high level of advance detail on it.) 
But there are two perms in the list at 300km which start in my local area, and which could quite conceivably cover some, or even all, of the same roads I'm planning, maybe even use some of the same controls locations. But I've nothing to go on (not even an email address for the organiser) ... and, short of snail-mail enquiry, could quite easily find myself guilty of unwitting plagiarism.

[mattc]

See the perm linked in my sig line

... which some of us have turned off, with the Avatars. Only so that we don't have to look at your ugly mug - nothing against your perms.

Just FYI

[JamieD]

Even more basic than that; how do I choose which perm to enter? If I don't even know which ones are within 100 miles of me.

That one should be easy - ask on here for recommendations of good Perms from

I think this is the wrong attitude. YACF is not linked from the Audax UK pages and many people wouldn't know about it's existence. This is exactly what I mean about perms coming across as being for people who are in the special club.

If you go on British Cycling to find a club you can filter by location. Imagine if you had to find a forum which isn't advertised, isn't official and then had to ask in the hope someone would respond.

A) Many people would never find the forum
B) Some people wouldn't get a response or would be referred to a 300 page previous post and told the information is somewhere in there
C) The response probably wouldn't list everything
D) If it became popular (which some people seem to be worried Audax might) then the people on the forum would be bombarded with the same questions.

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

I've just gone in and checked.  Whatever I do to change the location of the event it keeps defaulting to Hampshire, even when I've entered Powys or Gwynedd!  So it seems to be a feature of the website.  At least I can assure everyone that the Cambrian Series are in Wales and they go all over Wales, events have controls as far afield as Chepstow, Fishguard, Pwllheli, Conwy, and Mold    They are also designed to have gratuitous amounts of hills and random amounts of sheep.  It will almost certainly rain on the ride unless you do it in January or February when it will probably snow.  And they have been some of the best days (and nights) I've ever had on a bike, even the one I didn't finish this year.   

Mold is a very fine market town with quite a lot of history; however, I wouldn't want to live there* ... North Wales is my favourite part of the UK bar none    I have a Cambrian brevet in a drawer somewhere, but I've never quite got around to riding it — it's probably expired by now.

On marking the start locations — you move the hovering pointer around the map to where you want it and — and this is the important bit — you must click once on it to "activate" its position.  It isn't at all clear, but once I worked it out then this has worked for me and all the start points of my perms are in exactly the correct locations across Cambridge 


* I grew up just over the hill from there.

Cambrian Brevets never expire, they simply gather dust on the shelf.  I keep a list of all of the cards I've issued since 2008, and am still happy to validate an event (as long as you let me know when you are riding) - you could set a new record for longest gap between a brevet being issued and a the ride being ridden. 

[mattc]

Even more basic than that; how do I choose which perm to enter? If I don't even know which ones are within 100 miles of me.

That one should be easy - ask on here for recommendations of good Perms from

I think this is the wrong attitude. YACF is not linked from the Audax UK pages and many people wouldn't know about it's existence. This is exactly what I mean about perms coming across as being for people who are in the special club.

I happen to think that AUK is a very special club, so thanks for the "props" 

But back on topic: have you looked at the official forum advertised at the top of the official AUK website?

(It is very badly hidden - I may have words with the webadmin peeps, so that we can keep out the rabble a bit more effectively ... )

[Cudzoziemiec]

It's simple, you want to ride a perm, you pay and enter it.   Most organisers are flexible enough that you can decide the day you want to ride at short notice. Just get in touch with them.   Rule number 1, don't take the piss.

I've ridden a couple of Wilkyboy's perms and I wouldn't even dream of doing it without entering.

I'm wondering what this means. How can you do an audax without entering? I've heard of people tagging along on calendar events without officially entering (I'm sure this is discussed elsewhere, presumably they like the atmosphere of riding in a group and following other people and so on) but in the case of a perm, what is there to tag on to? There's only the route itself and if you've ridden it once and liked it, would like to ride it again but are not interested in points and badges, then surely you can just get on your bike and ride?

[JBB]

I think we're missing the point a bit here.  Anyone can ride anywhere any time they want.

However should you wish to ride a permanent,  for whatever reason,  the Audax listings are in some cases woefully inadequate. I do not think the requirement to state the controls is beyond the wit of man.  After that contact method should be at the discretion of the organiser.

Mind you I have contacted one organiser on the list and had no response ; off course my request may well have ended up in their spam folder....

[Somnolent]

Mind you I have contacted one organiser on the list and had no response ; off course my request may well have ended up in their spam folder....

I think if you do get that, it's perhaps appropriate to let the Permanents Secretary know.
His email adress can be found on http://www.aukweb.net/official/contacts/ but if you use the ContactUs page on the website: http://www.aukweb.net/contactus/ you can be sure it won't end up in a spam folder.

And thanks to mattc for mentioning the official forum    perhaps a better way of attracting the attention of the Permanents Secretary to your concerns.  AFAIK he doesnt hang around these parts.

[teethgrinder]

It seems to me that AUK needs a rides librarian.
I've had a project in mind for some years to turn all my old brevet cards into GPX files as routes for DIYs etc. Then have a library of rides in some kind of order so that the librarian (me) would be the go to person and have an organised list of rides. Perhaps even a ride agent who helps pick the best ride and gets in touch with the relevant organiser and tries to drum up other people to join in on rides, or co-ordinate rides so that riders can meet others at common controls.

It's an idea, but I'm wrapped up in the year record, so it remains just a pipe dream for me.

[Ben T]

It's simple, you want to ride a perm, you pay and enter it.   Most organisers are flexible enough that you can decide the day you want to ride at short notice. Just get in touch with them.   Rule number 1, don't take the piss.

I've ridden a couple of Wilkyboy's perms and I wouldn't even dream of doing it without entering.

I think you're really missing the point here, it's not about paying it's the lack of information and attitude shown. There are quite a few perms where there is so little information that it's impossible to decide if you want to ride it without contacting the organiser. That puts it into my category of "perms for the special club". It's not welcoming and creates an extra level of work for the organiser who now has to respond to someone who may or may not do the perm.

I don't think it's so much about them being a special little club or some secretive inner circle closely guarding the 'copyright' of their route, it's just that the organiser doesn't really care about mass participation, he's not particularly bothered whether newbies ride it or not. There's no protectionism, just zero interest in maximizing the number of people that ride it or of advertising it or making it appealing to those browsing. His purpose is simply making it available for those that are already aware of it and know they want to ride it - probably the same few people every time.

It's not welcoming no but it's not particularly UNwelcoming - just pretend those perms are not there.
Just stick to the events (perm or cal) that DO have descriptions/routes or make your own up.

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

I think we're missing the point a bit here.  Anyone can ride anywhere any time they want.

However should you wish to ride a permanent,  for whatever reason,  the Audax listings are in some cases woefully inadequate. I do not think the requirement to state the controls is beyond the wit of man.  After that contact method should be at the discretion of the organiser.

Mind you I have contacted one organiser on the list and had no response ; off course my request may well have ended up in their spam folder....

I do wonder if all of the permanent organisers are still active....  I'm totally uninformed on the subject, but in addition to the Cambrian Series of rides I have a set of brevets in Corsica, which no-one has ridden in yonks (since 2008) but no-one has checked if they are still active (they are - and real corkers as well) so it is possible that the organiser has moved house / email / etc.  Maybe there is a task for someone to help the AUK Perm Sec, but that's probably a topic for the AUK forum rather than yacf - as it could be that there is something already under way...

[frankly frankie]

I sometimes suspect some of the Perm organisers have not heard of the WWW ...

Well the search facility on the Perms page is was clearly broken - whatever I type in brings up a zero result.  That is now fixed, and you should get reasonable results if you type in a county say, or a start place.  It will now also find a control if it has been listed in the description text, or in the keywords for example - try typing in 'Burbage' to find 2 Perms that go through there - but this is at the expense of some other searches providing a few more false positives.

If you go on British Cycling to find a club you can filter by location.

Somebody was probably paid to collate and enter that information, and is probably still paid to maintain it (since cycling clubs have a bad habit of changing their names).

[mattc]

I sometimes suspect some of the Perm organisers have not heard of the WWW ...

Well the search facility on the Perms page is was clearly broken - whatever I type in brings up a zero result.

Oh good. I tried it earlier today and got no results, but didn't like to mention it here 

Thanks (on behalf of everyone, no doubt)

  That is now fixed, and you should get reasonable results if you type in a county say, or a start place.  It will now also find a control if it has been listed in the description text, or in the keywords for example - try typing in 'Burbage' to find 2 Perms that go through there - but this is at the expense of some other searches providing a few more false positives.

So is it just doing a free text search? It would be helpful to organisers to know WHAT can be found by perm hunters e.g. mine has "Wales"* in the description, but I certainly wouldn't have put "Wales" as a control. (IYSWIM)


*Intersting: apart from the Cambrian series and the DIYs, "Wales" returns surprisingly few perms ...
http://www.aukweb.net/perms/?SearchInput=wales&button=

[frankly frankie]

Specifically, the search looks at the event Title, the Start place**, the Keywords field, the Organiser's name (firstname or surname but NB not both together!), organising Body, and (for Perms only, not Cal events) the 'Oneliner' description text.  It will also find a specific Event Number.  One word searches work best, it's not case sensitive and in some cases partial strings get picked up - eg 'alp' finds some perms with 'alps' in the wordage and some with 'Alpine' in the wordage but it also finds one that goes through Malpas  .

** Start is 2 text fields.  Perm Organisers see the 2nd one labelled as County.  eg Clwyd Wales in the County field would work well.  This search does not search on marked map positions or on postcode although if the user is logged in then the 'Local to me' should work (only in map view) but of course this is very dependent on the map pins being correct which they very often aren't.  But to be clear, putting a map pin on say Cambridge, will not enable 'cambridge' in the search box to find it.