On the commute today

[citoyen]

If he's pushing a bicycle he could be considered to be 'propelling a vehicle' and so ignoring the stop line and red light could still be an offence.

It's certainly arguable but...

The reason I mentioned the jaywalking thing is to highlight the fact that there's no legal distinction between the "footway" and the "road" as far as pedestrians are concerned (unless you're talking about roads where pedestrians are specifically restricted such as motorways). Ergo surely Crank vs Brooks applies regardless of which bit of the road he's walking on?

d.

[Greenbank]

The reason I mentioned the jaywalking thing is to highlight the fact that there's no legal distinction between the "footway" and the "road" as far as pedestrians are concerned (unless you're talking about roads where pedestrians are specifically restricted such as motorways). Ergo surely Crank vs Brooks applies regardless of which bit of the road he's walking on?

There is a distinction at the point of the offence though; the stop-line. The offence in question can only be committed if he's on the road, since the stop line and traffic light does not apply to anything off the road on the pavement. He either crosses a stop-line (offence) or doesn't because he's on the pavement (no offence since he hasn't crossed the stop-line).

As far as I read it, it doesn't matter whether he is riding his bike or pushing it, if he pushes it over the stop line at a red light then he's committed the offence. A pedestrian couldn't be charged for the same offence because they aren't propelling a vehicle.

Crank vs Brooks relates to a different offence (I'm trying to find it to see how it was worded).

What I am wondering is that, if instead of pushing his bike over the stop-line, he lifts it onto the pavement, pushes it past the stop-line and red light before rejoining the road and continuing. If he does this then he hasn't committed the offence in question since he hasn't passed over the stop-line at a red light.

Take this junction right next to MI6 for example:

clicky

It's possible, without going over the stop line at the end of the ASL to turn off onto the pavement with a bit of a cycle lane, past the stop-line/traffic lights and either back onto the road the other side of the stop line, or even round the corner onto Albert Embankment and off the pavement after the second set of traffic lights. Legal or not? I can't see a reason why not...

[EDIT] I do that most days I use that route (it all depends on whether there is anyone at the pedestrian crossing, if there's anyone then I'll wait in the ASL box rather than mix with pedestrians). There's lots of police around those specific junctions and that building for some reason or another...

[citoyen]

the stop line and traffic light does not apply to anything off the road on the pavement.

The stop line and traffic lights don't apply to pedestrians at all. So the question comes back to whether or not he's a pedestrian...

That's the only question that matters, and I believe that question is answered by Crank vs Brook.

d.

[Greenbank]

the stop line and traffic light does not apply to anything off the road on the pavement.

The stop line and traffic lights don't apply to pedestrians at all. So the question comes back to whether or not he's a pedestrian...

That's the only question that matters, and I believe that question the is answered by Crank vs Brook.

On that matter, here's the opinion of the legal person above:-

Is the brommie rider dismounting his cycle and then mounting a footway on foot to cross at a pedestrian crossing? if so, he has always been on foot while on the footway and as such crosses the junction as a pedestrian, if he then only remounts the cycle once dismounting the footway.

I'm not sure but I think he remained on the road at all times. He dismounts to push his bicycle over the stop line and then remounts to continue.

The Crank vs Brooks ruling was to prevent someone from being prosecuted for pushing their bicycle over a pedestrian crossing to cross the road from one side to the other (hence the 'having started from the pavement'). It wasn't someone pushing their bike over the crossing in the direction of the road.

Then agreed - if he remains on the road, Crank can never apply.

[citoyen]

With all due respect, ALG's opinion as expressed in a cycling forum is not legal precedent.

d.

[clarion]

No, but it's a fair interpretation of CvB, given the orientation of the action.

[itsbruce]

I think it might be time for somebody to split your discussion off into another thread.

[citoyen]

No, but it's a fair interpretation of CvB, given the orientation of the action.

Agreed, but it's not the only fair interpretation. And in light of itsbruce's fair comment, that shall be my last word on the subject.

d.

[Greenbank]

OK, OK, I only just noticed citoyen's previous post:-

With all due respect, ALG's opinion as expressed in a cycling forum is not legal precedent.

And, with all due respect, it's just your opinion as a layperson that the Crank vs Brooks ruling would apply as a precedent for this particular scenario.

It's just my opinion as a layperson that it doesn't.

Neither of us are lawyers, that's for sure.

ALG (I believe) is. .anth/blackpuddingonabike who posted ages ago on this subject definitely is.

Both of them think that it the Crank vs Brooks ruling wouldn't apply in this scenario because it's a different situation to the Crank vs Brooks case; it's not someone starting from off the road on a footpath and crossing the road wheeling their bike across a pedestrian crossing.

Pushing through a red light, if you are still on the road, then you are still subject to that particular rule of the Highway. Moving onto the pavement to push past, however, you have become a foot passenger on the pavement, to which the red light does not apply.

Happy to continue the discussion on that thread (click the quote attribution to get to it) if you want although I don't think there's much left to discuss (as we're just disagreeing over a single point) and I've provided two opinions from legal representatives that back up my view and I can't find any that counter it.

[Eccentrica Gallumbits]

On my way home tonight I could see a bloke and a little boy ahead of me. The little boy was so little I would have expected him to be on a pedal tractor or something, but he was on a teeny tiny mountain bike, no stabilisers, pedalling away, his wee legs going round so fast, and he wasn't wearing a helmet. (I'm making no judgment about that, I just mention it because I see so many tiny children on bikes or scooters or tractors or things wearing helmets). I assume the bloke was his dad. He was pedalling alongside very slowly, pulling a wheelie every so often, much to the wee boy's delight. The little boy looked like he was having the time of his life. 

[Basil]

What a contrast to last week!
I left work today at 5 and cycled home in glorious sunshine.  I was finding it hard to understand how on one day last week I left at 4:30 and had had to deploy full lighting front and rear!

[clarion]

.anth is a sage enough authority for me.  I'll duck out of that discussion.

Meanwhile, that was a pretty fast ride home.  I feared that this morning's swift ride was enhanced by a wind I'd be facing on the way home.  But no.

And, where I had to do a right turn off the A232, a van driver just decided to give me space straight away, even though he could have driven on unhindered.  Thanks, chap, it's appreciated.  Sorry I didn't catch the company name.

[Greenbank]

*Very* swift ride home, kept up with a bloke on a carbon Trek TT bike (the one with the rear brake hidden behind the chainstays) and a HED-3 front wheel.

I was *just* keeping up with him whilst he was probably dawdling home on a recovery ride keeping his HR in double figures but who cares. There was a glimmer of acknowledgment from him as I was still with him climbing over Putney Bridge given that we both pulled away from the lights at Vauxhall Bridge on Grosvenor Road at the same time.

Can't wait to see what the PowerTap gives me (I'll have to wait until I get into work tomorrow morning to find out).

[Tim Hall]

Coming through South Nutfield on the way home, I rounded a corner to  see the back of a pocket rocket BMW. You know, the ones that normally have a personalised number plate.  This one was doing about 10mph, because it wasn't safe for the driver to overtake the two cyclists in front.

I dunno, you just can't get the stereotypes these days.

[Wendy]

I had one close and fast overtake from a bus across double white lines, one driver on the phone who I blatantly filmed and got a beep and big thumbs up from another bus driver who saw this, and then one of those morons who tries to overtake and sweep you out of the way when you're all in a queue of traffic moving along. The stupids.

[citoyen]

I encountered a right muppet this evening on the way through Beckenham. Parked cars and traffic islands mean the road here is very narrow in places, so I always ride slap in the middle of the lane to discourage anyone who gets any funny ideas about overtaking - there just isn't room. But prat in a black Fiat behind me starts tooting anyway. Thing is, even if I'd been able to get out of his way to allow him past, there was a line of traffic queuing just a short way ahead...

I pass the traffic and fall in behind another rider who I've been following on and off since Dulwich. He's not pushing hard but he's big and very strong and going too fast for me to overtake, so I stay a little behind and to the side of him - not fully two abreast but just far enough out so I've got room for manoeuvre if he stops unexpectedly. Then we hit the small incline just before Shortlands and he slows suddenly. I'm on fixed, so my momentum starts to take me past him, except...

At that exact moment, Fiat idiot pulls alongside and starts shouting through the open passenger window at me, while also manoeuvring over towards the kerb, closing off my road space, even though there's actually room for him to pass safely at this point. I've got my headphones in, so it's just a garbled noise rather than words, and I studiously ignore him - not so much as a glance in his direction - but I'm forced to drop back to avoid being forced to clatter into the other chap. Once Fiat idiot is past us, he guns it off into the distance... well, at least as far as the next queue, all of a couple of hundred yards away.

I almost catch him again at Shortlands but thankfully the lights change before I reach him and he's off again. I'm happy to avoid another encounter. He sounds like a nasty piece of work. Let him burst a blood vessel if he wants, don't rise to it (or should that be "sink to his level"?), it's just not worth spoiling your ride over.

Good ride apart from that. I saw the familiar Wednesday crew on their way to wherever it is they do their training in their swish Rapha Condor kit. Herne Hill presumably. They were all on Cyclocross bikes or MTBs tonight. Quite envious I wasn't joining them, actually.

d.

[benborp]

The level of motorised numptiness has definitely risen in south London today. A lot more traffic in the morning and I noticed motorists were aiming at smaller gaps than they have been over the last few weeks. Nearly taken out in Dulwich by a right-turning G-Wiz; however, from past experience I know that driver to be a complete idiot and can't ascribe his cretinry to increased congestion. On the return the propensity for Camberwell's motorists to drive straight through cyclists seems to have returned with a very determined left hook and bizarre sideswipe from separate drivers. Dulwich village was interesting again on the way home mainly due to drivers attempting to speed despite all the barriers to doing so comfortably or even successfully. Passed on College Road by a Belgian 4x4 who was leaving the ground over the bumps (but the police in the on-coming van didn't seem too phased) and squeezed at the junction with the south circular by an overtaking VW desperate to get up the arse of the taxi I was following. Unfortunately the driver was completely flummoxed by the toll gate and I was held up for considerably more time than she could have imagined she gained by bashing over all the sleeping policemen.

The cyclists I encountered today on the other hand, were far more relaxed and pleasant company than of late. Lots of RLJ, but far fewer felt the need to skim the shoulders of others to do so. Peoples willingness to roll in a pack rather than barge to the front at all costs also seemed to have increased.

[GruB]

I kept overtaking men on BSOs on the way home.  One had a t-shirt on that said "Tour of Devon".  I didn't have the heart to ask whether he knew he was in Wiltshire.

Riding in treacle and into a head wind was hard.

[Riggers]

1 minute 45 seconds door-to-door today! I don't think I can do it any faster.

Cycling god.

[citoyen]

The level of motorised numptiness has definitely risen in south London today.

Definitely. Lots more traffic. Lots more numptiness. Summer is officially over. 

Passed on College Road ... Unfortunately the driver was completely flummoxed by the toll gate and I was held up for considerably more time than she could have imagined she gained by bashing over all the sleeping policemen.

Oh, that makes me so freakin' mad. 

If there are cars behind me, I try to hog the road on the approach to the tollgate to avoid that problem but they still try to come round. They just don't get it. The sheer horror of having to wait behind a cyclist for just a couple of seconds is too much for some drivers to bear.

d.

[vorsprung]

Had a cold yesterday.  It got worse during the day and the ride home was quite slow and snotty.  Couldn't go to the pub with cycling mates last night 

Woke up this morning and after a bowl of porridge felt sort of ok, so decided to ride in.  Glad I did, it was a loverly day once the fog cleared.  Lacking a bit of zing on the hills but otherwise legs are working.  Got into work feeling still sort of ok

On account of the fog and my weakened state this was the first day wearing long tights in the morning

[ian]

The level of motorised numptiness has definitely risen in south London today.

Definitely. Lots more traffic. Lots more numptiness. Summer is officially over. 

Passed on College Road ... Unfortunately the driver was completely flummoxed by the toll gate and I was held up for considerably more time than she could have imagined she gained by bashing over all the sleeping policemen.

Oh, that makes me so freakin' mad. 

If there are cars behind me, I try to hog the road on the approach to the tollgate to avoid that problem but they still try to come round. They just don't get it. The sheer horror of having to wait behind a cyclist for just a couple of seconds is too much for some drivers to bear.

d.

Ah, the College Road shuffle. That's familiar. The roar, squeak and then crunch as they shave the top of another speed bump in their effort to - well, to be honest, I'm not sure what achievement they have in mind. But they have to overtake the cyclist before the next speedbump when inevitably the cyclist passes them. Over and over. We always arrive at the toll gate about the same time and, of course, at this point they have to stop because finding the change didn't occur to them. I mean, if you're in that much of a hurry...

[Andyf]

The level of motorised numptiness has definitely risen

Have found many Car, Van and Bus drivers very cyclist tolarent and curtious at the moment..........Or pherhaps it's just me, Coming from Essex you get used to be seen as higher up the Food chain 

[Andyf]

Have found many Car, Van and Bus drivers very cyclist tolarent and curtious at the moment..........Or pherhaps it's just me, Coming from Essex you get used to be seen as higher up the Food chain 

I think Oakey & Christopher will back me up on this 

[Wendy]

A car with a Give Cyclists Room sticker FTW!!