Author Topic: Sign of the Times  (Read 4013 times)

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Sign of the Times
« on: 11 November, 2013, 09:57:10 pm »
Went to a café with my Mum twice today; first for morning coffee and later, with Dad for lunch.

I was struck by the number of very young children playing with electronic devices. One tot was playing with both a phone and a tablet. She fell off high chair grasping for tablet and SCREAMED.

Neither of her parents could console her but there was instant silence when they gave her the tablet...

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Sign of the Times
« Reply #1 on: 11 November, 2013, 10:11:19 pm »
The ability of children who are too young to read to fluently operate computing devices impresses me almost as much as the inability of educated adults to do the same thing.

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: Sign of the Times
« Reply #2 on: 11 November, 2013, 11:39:28 pm »
Yes, there's a bit of a myth though, about the 'digital generation'.

The mainstream opinion is that the current youth have an advantage, because they grew up in an age where the Internet 'Just Was', and they don't have to think about it.  It 'Just Works'.   

But, I disagree.  To them, the Internet is nothing more than a few websites: twitter, facebook etc.
They know nothing ( and care less ) about how it actually works.

But I maintain that My Generation, who grew up with the Internet as it was being created, are better placed.  We know How It Works behind the scenes.   We are the generation who Know the Internet.   We know how it really works.   We know of FTP. IRC. We know about SMTP and POP and IMAP.  We Know about IP addressing and Port Numbers, and NAT.   We know NAT is Evil.   We knew how to configure a mail client: server names and port numbers.  We knew how to configure wireless networks: Encryptions, EAP types etc.

The current generation knows nothing of this stuff.
It's all abstracted.
The Fruit Device will magically 'just connect' to the network.

R.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Sign of the Times
« Reply #3 on: 11 November, 2013, 11:42:57 pm »
The fruit devices allow more people to connect to the Internet. Which makes what you know all the more important.
It is simpler than it looks.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Sign of the Times
« Reply #4 on: 12 November, 2013, 01:47:14 pm »
Every school day I see the opposite - a mother, whose child must be in reception at Little Cudzo's school, walking along completely oblivious to everything around her, including her little girl, because she is always texting, facebooking or whatever on her smartphone. I have literally never seen her looking at anything else, even when crossing the road.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Sign of the Times
« Reply #5 on: 12 November, 2013, 04:40:04 pm »
Yes, there's a bit of a myth though, about the 'digital generation'.

The mainstream opinion is that the current youth have an advantage, because they grew up in an age where the Internet 'Just Was', and they don't have to think about it.  It 'Just Works'.   

But, I disagree.  To them, the Internet is nothing more than a few websites: twitter, facebook etc.
They know nothing ( and care less ) about how it actually works.

But I maintain that My Generation, who grew up with the Internet as it was being created, are better placed.  We know How It Works behind the scenes.   We are the generation who Know the Internet.   We know how it really works.   We know of FTP. IRC. We know about SMTP and POP and IMAP.  We Know about IP addressing and Port Numbers, and NAT.   We know NAT is Evil.   We knew how to configure a mail client: server names and port numbers.  We knew how to configure wireless networks: Encryptions, EAP types etc.

The current generation knows nothing of this stuff.
It's all abstracted.
The Fruit Device will magically 'just connect' to the network.

R.

Doesn't apply to the gamers.

The computer-addicted gamers in this household frequently will wander downstairs "Mum, can you open port 4444 on the router? We want to host a terraria server."
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Woofage

  • Tofu-eating Wokerati
  • Ain't no hooves on my bike.
Re: Sign of the Times
« Reply #6 on: 12 November, 2013, 05:32:09 pm »
Doesn't apply to the gamers.

The computer-addicted gamers in this household frequently will wander downstairs "Mum, can you open port 4444 on the router? We want to host a terraria server."

Here too. Whilst the 11yo guru might not know what port numbers actually are, he is comfortable with the terminology.
Pen Pusher

Re: Sign of the Times
« Reply #7 on: 14 November, 2013, 08:28:23 am »
But I maintain that My Generation, who grew up with the Internet as it was being created, are better placed.  We know How It Works behind the scenes.   We are the generation who Know the Internet.   We know how it really works.   We know of FTP. IRC. We know about SMTP and POP and IMAP.  We Know about IP addressing and Port Numbers, and NAT.   We know NAT is Evil.   We knew how to configure a mail client: server names and port numbers.  We knew how to configure wireless networks: Encryptions, EAP types etc.

The current generation knows nothing of this stuff.

All you say is true, but for most people it is a tool and should just work, probably more so than it does at the moment. The generation older than me knew how a car worked, how to use a stocking for a fan belt, how to set the ignition timing with a feeler gauge. Cars needed tinkering with every so often and if you finished a long journey without a bit more tinkering you were lucky. Now you don't need to know that - you can expect your car to just work and do what you bought it for, getting from A to B.
Quote from: tiermat
that's not science, it's semantics.

Euan Uzami

Re: Sign of the Times
« Reply #8 on: 14 November, 2013, 01:42:36 pm »
Yes, there's a bit of a myth though, about the 'digital generation'.

The mainstream opinion is that the current youth have an advantage, because they grew up in an age where the Internet 'Just Was', and they don't have to think about it.  It 'Just Works'.   

But, I disagree.  To them, the Internet is nothing more than a few websites: twitter, facebook etc.
They know nothing ( and care less ) about how it actually works.

But I maintain that My Generation, who grew up with the Internet as it was being created, are better placed.  We know How It Works behind the scenes.   We are the generation who Know the Internet.   We know how it really works.   We know of FTP. IRC. We know about SMTP and POP and IMAP.  We Know about IP addressing and Port Numbers, and NAT.   We know NAT is Evil.   We knew how to configure a mail client: server names and port numbers.  We knew how to configure wireless networks: Encryptions, EAP types etc.

The current generation knows nothing of this stuff.
It's all abstracted.
The Fruit Device will magically 'just connect' to the network.

R.

It's worse than that. Whole web development frameworks have been built specifically to be able to be used by people who have real understanding of request and response, post-redirect-get, the http protocol, even html itself. Some people's only interaction with computers is using web sites that have been built with this.
Not so much the blind leading the blind, as the blind following a path that's been laid by the blind using stones that were hand carved by the blind.



Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Sign of the Times
« Reply #9 on: 14 November, 2013, 07:40:22 pm »
I'm not convinced that matters, anymore than you need to understand printing to read a book.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Sign of the Times
« Reply #10 on: 14 November, 2013, 07:57:48 pm »
I'm not convinced that matters, anymore than you need to understand printing to read a book.

Agreed.  It may be useful when you come to write/publish one, however.


Some people will care about how things work because they're naturally curious.  Some will care because it's useful for them to do so in a given context.  Most won't.  Applies to all things, surely?

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Sign of the Times
« Reply #11 on: 14 November, 2013, 08:52:29 pm »
I think so.

I'm not sure you need to know about printing to write a book though. Might be useful in publishing.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Sign of the Times
« Reply #12 on: 15 November, 2013, 10:06:40 am »
I've worked with plenty of decent programmers who have never written a makefile from scratch or optimised something by coding directly in assembler. That doesn't mean they weren't good programmers. Conversely, the guys I work with now, who drool over the thought of recoding a linker, are utterly useless at producing a well crafted gui.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: Sign of the Times
« Reply #13 on: 16 November, 2013, 11:56:18 pm »
I'm not convinced that matters, anymore than you need to understand printing to read a book.

Perhaps so.

But you are at home, and *you* are in charge of *your* network ( wired and wireless ).
And it doesn't work.

Who do you call?

Many people call their ISP.
And it's probably really not their problem...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Sign of the Times
« Reply #14 on: 17 November, 2013, 11:58:38 am »
If it's not their problem, someone else will fix it. Like if your fridge breaks down, you call an electrician, not the power station. If you can fix it yourself, great.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Euan Uzami

Re: Sign of the Times
« Reply #15 on: 24 November, 2013, 10:54:18 am »
I'm not convinced that matters, anymore than you need to understand printing to read a book.
I think so.

I'm not sure you need to know about printing to write a book though. Might be useful in publishing.

I don't think you've got the right analogy there. The writing vs. printing a book would apply to the likes of wordpress websites and blogs where all you are supposed to have to do is add content.
I'm talking about web sites and applications whose application logic and code has been written by people who don't understand the web, because a tool has been shoved under their nose that has hidden all that from them and enabled them to knock something up. And not just voluntarily used web sites either, but business to business applications that employees of companies and public sector organisations are told they they must use.

So a better 'books' analogy would be say if there was a massive demand for non-fiction books in schools and there weren't enough being printed, and I, crafty snake-oil salesman that I am, set up a dodgy business producing 'home brew' printing presses that produced fairly crap books but that didn't require any particular printing skill to use, and all and sundry started buying them and printing books, to sell to schools, despite having no knowledge of printing but were able to print books using the 'easy' home printing press that they've bought - and meanwhile I'm selling so many of these dodgy printing presses I become the richest bloke in the world out of it.
(For the sake of this analogy, the 'content' of the books, and who produced/produces it, is irrelevant - let's say it's
old handed-down stuff that's out of copyright, or it's a pop-up book, or a dictionary, say - the importance is the printing process and who does it and how.)

I take it you can gather from this that it's not primarily the content authors or even the home printers I'm having a dig at, but the inventor of the home-brew printing press...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Sign of the Times
« Reply #16 on: 24 November, 2013, 03:01:36 pm »
Generally, you're thinking about the people who make it work - they certainly need to know how to "print a book". I'm thinking more about the readers and writers, where things really are easy enough for a two-year-old to do it, literally.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Euan Uzami

Re: Sign of the Times
« Reply #17 on: 24 November, 2013, 09:57:24 pm »
Generally, you're thinking about the people who make it work - they certainly need to know how to "print a book".
Yes, but a lot don't!
is the point I'm making.

Re: Sign of the Times
« Reply #18 on: 25 November, 2013, 11:01:44 am »
Generally, you're thinking about the people who make it work - they certainly need to know how to "print a book".
Yes, but a lot don't!
is the point I'm making.

Ben, aren't you describing the nightmare of DTP driven by people with no training in design or layout?

Welcome to my world.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Sign of the Times
« Reply #19 on: 18 December, 2013, 05:19:53 pm »
I remember at school being taught binary, then Nand, Not gates etc with light bulbs to create logic gates, and then being taught the theory of how to carry out basic mathematical calculations in binary, and then the teacher proudly telling us we'd now all just built computers, to which we all replied, bollocks, it patently was not a computer as we couldn't play games on it.