Cheaper buses, more passengers

[Cudzoziemiec]

More people are using bus services since the introduction of a £2 fare cap, a survey by a transport watchdog suggests.

Transport Focus surveyed more than 1,000 people and more than one in 10 said they were using the bus to travel more.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65177420

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

The odd bit is that the fare for my 2-mile journey into the Station (or more usually back from it) is £1.90, only 10p cheaper than the 16-mile journey to Alton.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Bus fares are almost as full of oddities as train fares. And yes, a few will have gone up as a result of this scheme; for instance we used to have a 'three-stop hop' fare of £1.50 in Bristol, which has now vanished.

But I wonder if the key thing that has got more passengers on buses is the amount of the fare or the certainty that it will always be £2, no matter where you're going? Not having to specify a destination has some advantages: it might be that you know where you're going but you don't know how to describe it in bus terms; you might even just want to get on a bus and let it take you to the end of the line, or somewhere that you just feel looks good; and not having to get a specific target speeds up boarding, reducing one of the key irritant factors about bus travel.

[GdS]

I'm not (quite) eligible for a free pass yet but my experience of local buses is that they are £1.90 to go a very short distance and £5-7 to go anywhere else on the route.

I certainly intend to do some bus assisted long walks while the offer lasts

[Cudzoziemiec]

Scheme extended to October, then £2.50 for a further 12 months.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65616182

[FifeingEejit]

Buses are usually priced based on fare stages.
Dundee still has "Fare Stage" on bus stop flags (or at least least time I looked)
For the former Dundee Corporation buses the prices are based on 1 or more fare stages
For the Alexander buses it increments at each fare stage.
IIRC Fare stages and timing stages are often interlinked (where you can't leave early)

Wormit was (or is) split in 2 either side of the kirk.

[De Sisti]

Over the past few months I've made return journeys from Cheltenham to Gloucester,
each time costing close to £6. The driver could have suggested two £2 singles, but didn't. 

[Cudzoziemiec]

I remember seeing fare stage plaques but haven't seen one since the early 90s, if not before. Might be a thing that survived longer in Scotland, if indeed they are still in use?

[Feanor]

I remember seeing fare stage plaques but haven't seen one since the early 90s, if not before. Might be a thing that survived longer in Scotland, if indeed they are still in use?

Lothian Busses in Edinburgh are fixed fare, there are no Fare Stages.
Single ticket is £2
Day Ticket is £5.

Using contactless to board, you will not be charged straight away: it accumulates your daily usage and caps it at the day rate and charges you in the wee small hours after midnight has passed.
TapTapCap is what they call it. Similar to Oyster, I think.

[Cudzoziemiec]

The tap in, tap out system makes boarding so much simpler and speedier.

[quixoticgeek]

The tap in, tap out system makes boarding so much simpler and speedier.

This.

The OV chipkaart system in .NL is as close to a perfect public transport charging system as I've found. Second only to Luxembourg's approach (i.e. free).

J

[De Sisti]

The tap in, tap out system makes boarding so much simpler and speedier.

Don't know what that is.

[Cudzoziemiec]

The tap in, tap out system makes boarding so much simpler and speedier.

Don't know what that is.

Instead of asking the driver for a ticket to ..., you tap your bank card on a card reader when boarding and, ideally, the same again (usually a separate reader in a more convenient place) on exiting. You don't have to tap out but if you don't, it will just charge you for a single fare, whereas if you tap out, your combined total of all trips that day is capped – the exact cap varies from place to place. Here it is, I think, £8.

[Kim]

Last time I used one, the Middle Earth buses just tap in.  If you do it once, you pay a single fare.  If you do it more than once it's capped at the day ticket price.  Simple.

[quixoticgeek]

Last time I used one, the Middle Earth buses just tap in.  If you do it once, you pay a single fare.  If you do it more than once it's capped at the day ticket price.  Simple.

That's a horrible system that people seem to think is good because they've never had he good fortune to use something better.

Unless the day cap is very low (under a fiver). It grossly disadvantages those who are not very fit, but also don't qualify for a disabled pass.

Do I need to explain trip chaining again ? And why it's crucial that public transport supports it ?

The tap in only system disadvantages those who only go a short distance, say one or two stops. The sort of distance where some old white bloke says "why don't you just walk it?!", And you have to explain you have an injury so you can't walk a long distance but you still want to get to the doctor's surgery. I often take a tram or bus one or two stops as part of a trip chain. Because a well thought out system allows and encourages it.

J

[Kim]

Last time I used one, the Middle Earth buses just tap in.  If you do it once, you pay a single fare.  If you do it more than once it's capped at the day ticket price.  Simple.

That's a horrible system that people seem to think is good because they've never had he good fortune to use something better.

Unless the day cap is very low (under a fiver). It grossly disadvantages those who are not very fit, but also don't qualify for a disabled pass.

The day cap is currently £4, which seems expensive to me, but reasonable in the context of a single journey costing £2: Trip-chainers would pay the same as a commuter.

They also seem to have worked out that people want to buy bulk discounted tickets, but not travel 5 days a week...

Do I need to explain trip chaining again ? And why it's crucial that public transport supports it ?

Possibly to the people in charge of planning bus routes...

[citoyen]

I imagine one of the fundamental differences between buses in the UK and the Netherlands is that in the latter they are run as a service for the public while in the former they are run as a profit-making scheme for shareholders.

London buses and trams are managed as a concession by private operators but fares are set by TfL, in line with the Mayor’s transport policies. Current flat rate fare for any single bus/tram journey is £1.65 - and it was at that level well before the £2 cap was introduced across the country. For that £1.65 you can make as many bus/tram journeys as you like, as long as they start within the hour - even if you have, say, two bus journeys either side of a ride on the Tube.

This model may not suit some users who make multiple short journeys across the course of a day but I guess it’s designed to suit the vast majority of users.

I‘m sure TfL would have considered a tap-in/tap-out model but couldn’t say why they haven’t gone down that route. A lot of the problems with fare structuring in the UK are down to the attitude to funding from central government.

TfL recently had to put fares up as a direct result of central government cutting public transport funding, which was already much lower for London than any other major European city.

[citoyen]

The funding issue means a lot of TfL activity is now focused on revenue generation. It has to be.  Otherwise public transport in London would be unsustainably expensive for passengers… sorry, I mean customers.

[perpetual dan]

I used to use buses very occasionally (mostly train strike days) but it was a fellow passenger waiting for a late bus that told me about the £2 fare being if you use their app - doesn’t seem to be available from the driver. I live in the next town to work, and this year the train fare went to just over £10 for a return at getting to work time; the cash bus all day ticket £7.50; or £4 to get a cheap single each way.

There is also a tap on and off system, that seems to be based on the cash fare but with a discount for multiple days of use and a weekly cap. Though the description is suspiciously salesy and the prices buried. There is also a £1.70 short hop ticket, a combined bus and rail ticket and an “as many trips as you like” day ticket. Though for lots of short trips I can imagine a budget scooter soon becomes a financial win.

[Cudzoziemiec]

If anything, I'd have said it's the tap in, tap out system that disadvantages trip-chainers. If you fail to tap out, you'll get charged the maximum. At the moment, at least on First WoE and their subsidiaries, this doesn't make much difference if any to the fare you pay – and it seems very few people actually do tap out – but once the cap has gone, it will.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I used to use buses very occasionally (mostly train strike days) but it was a fellow passenger waiting for a late bus that told me about the £2 fare being if you use their app - doesn’t seem to be available from the driver. I live in the next town to work, and this year the train fare went to just over £10 for a return at getting to work time; the cash bus all day ticket £7.50; or £4 to get a cheap single each way.

There is also a tap on and off system, that seems to be based on the cash fare but with a discount for multiple days of use and a weekly cap. Though the description is suspiciously salesy and the prices buried. There is also a £1.70 short hop ticket, a combined bus and rail ticket and an “as many trips as you like” day ticket.

Sounds like too many fare types!

Though for lots of short trips I can imagine a budget scooter soon becomes a financial win.

This. And a convenience win too – not bound by timetables, routes and stops.

[quixoticgeek]

If anything, I'd have said it's the tap in, tap out system that disadvantages trip-chainers. If you fail to tap out, you'll get charged the maximum. At the moment, at least on First WoE and their subsidiaries, this doesn't make much difference if any to the fare you pay – and it seems very few people actually do tap out – but once the cap has gone, it will.

If you fail to tap out on a bus in Amsterdam, you get charged 4 euro. Then you wait 48 hours, and claim back the difference by filling in a form on a website.

To put This in perspective I have had journeys where the costs have been:

1.08 - Metro from outside my flat one stop north.
0.56 - Bus from the metro station towards one of the main shopping streets to goto the optician.
0.15 - Tram from the other end of the shopping street one stop to the supermarket to buy lunch.
0.25 - Tram down the road to the outdoor kit shop.
0.30 - Tram to the expat shop
0.20 - Metro one stop
0.80 - Tram back out of the centre
0.10 - Metro one stop home.

That took me about 4 hours. With each stop being no more than 35 mins in length. On London buses that would be 1.65 x 4. If we include the two metro's as tube journeys, then add 6 quid.

It works really well with trip chaining, and is a massive improvement on the zone system we had before.

Though for lots of short trips I can imagine a budget scooter soon becomes a financial win.

This. And a convenience win too – not bound by timetables, routes and stops.

Erm no. That assumes a) that the infrastructure is there for the safe use of such a scooter, b) the physical fitness required to use a scooter c) the weather is conducive.

Also where do you put the scooter while you're in the Pharmacy? or at the supermarket?

It also assumes that all trips are short. You might want to do a €3 trip across town, then half a dozen short hops around that area, then the €2 hop back home. The scooter might not be so good on that situation.

I typically use my Brompton if I want to do these things in the city, but when I hurt my leg and was hobbling about on crutches, the short stops on the tram became invaluable. We have to design the public transport system to transport all of the public, not just a subset of it.

J

[Cudzoziemiec]

If anything, I'd have said it's the tap in, tap out system that disadvantages trip-chainers. If you fail to tap out, you'll get charged the maximum. At the moment, at least on First WoE and their subsidiaries, this doesn't make much difference if any to the fare you pay – and it seems very few people actually do tap out – but once the cap has gone, it will.

If you fail to tap out on a bus in Amsterdam, you get charged 4 euro. Then you wait 48 hours, and claim back the difference by filling in a form on a website.

What a faffy system.

[quixoticgeek]

What a faffy system.

Not really. I'm quite a heavy public transport system, and it happens to me about twice a year.

The chip card readers are by every door. Often one on each side of the door.

Failures to check it are rare. And when you do. You can still get the money back.

J

[citoyen]

On London buses that would be 1.65 x 4

Not to argue with the general point you're making, just a slight correction to the detail: the daily payg cap on London buses is £4.65.

The daily payg cap to cover all bus, tram, DLR etc is £9.60 for zones 1-3 (varies depending on which zones you're travelling in).