Author Topic: Cyclepath tactile paving (Read 3720 times)

Wobbly John · « **on:** 01 January, 2020, 12:11:38 pm »

Does anybody else have issues with 'corduroy' tactile paving on cyclepaths?

I sometime use a path that has some and in wet, damp or frosty conditions, on a narrow tyred bike, I often have a wheel suddenly slip sideways.

I consider my bike handling skills to be above average, yet I'm scared to cross tactile paving specified for use on cyclepaths.

Paul · « **Reply #1 on:** 01 January, 2020, 12:22:01 pm »

Agreed. It seems pointless for cyclists. Does it do something for other users?

Kim · « **Reply #2 on:** 01 January, 2020, 12:25:45 pm »

Yes, everyone. Crossing the perpendicular corduroy on the pedestrian side is a pain for wheelchair users, buggy pushers, etc. too - though not as actively dangerous as trying to bicycle over it with road tyres when there's ice or chutney around. I'll generally pass on the pedestrian side (if there is one) when it looks dodgy.

The design was based on consultation with ambulant blind people^[1], by a well-intentioned someone who doesn't understand how a bicycle works. It actually uses the word 'tramline' in the guidelines, ffs.

AIUI, since they can't change the meaning without re-laying it all overnight, that corduroy stuff is now deprecated, in favour of some other flavour of tactiles. I'm not a kerb nerd, so don't know the details.

_{[1] For blind users, the direction is arbitrary. It just has to be consistent.}

Cudzoziemiec · « **Reply #3 on:** 01 January, 2020, 12:32:31 pm »

There are two flavours, possibly more, of corduroy. One type has narrow, rounded ribs; the second type has broader, flat-topped, square-edged ribs. A path near Bristol Partway station has a good demonstration of the difference, having both types in each orientation. The flat-topped design, as you would expect, is much less slippy. Tyre width also makes a big difference. It's a long time since I used knobbly tyres but I'm sure they'd make some sort of difference too.

quixoticgeek · « **Reply #4 on:** 01 January, 2020, 01:02:34 pm »

I try to avoid all tactile paving when on the bike, if I have to cross the stuff running parallel to the direction of travel, I usually opt to use the pedestrian side.

In a few places I've found tactile paving that's designed to lead you to the entrance of a tram/bus, and the shared use cycle lane goes along it, this can lead to tram lining issues too.

J

SteveC · « **Reply #5 on:** 03 January, 2020, 08:07:08 pm »

My 81 year old mother, who is getting frail, but has good sight, hates all these tactile surfaces as she finds them very difficult to walk on and has done for some years. I suppose it's one of those you can't have a perfect solution issues.

rogerzilla · « **Reply #6 on:** 03 January, 2020, 08:22:20 pm »

There are two types around here. The older, coarser, type is ok. The newer type is lethal and just the right spacing to catch a 23mm tyre. I use the "wrong" side to avoid crashing.

Designed by non-cycling morons.

Wobbly John · « **Reply #7 on:** 03 January, 2020, 08:48:09 pm »

I'm thinking of making 'guerilla' warning signs - any suggestions as to wording/graphics?

quixoticgeek · « **Reply #8 on:** 03 January, 2020, 08:59:45 pm »

Quote from: SteveC on 03 January, 2020, 08:07:08 pm

My 81 year old mother, who is getting frail, but has good sight, hates all these tactile surfaces as she finds them very difficult to walk on and has done for some years. I suppose it's one of those you can't have a perfect solution issues.

Conversely I've found myself using the tactile paving in stations as a more effective way of finding my way around than the actual signage... It takes me to the lift, and the wide gates. Very effective. Less so when I'm wearing my 4" heals, at that point it makes for interesting balance exercise...

J

Clare · « **Reply #9 on:** 03 January, 2020, 09:27:07 pm »

Just to the left of the cyclist here is the best 2m² bit of tarmac ever laid. It is on a slight bend and used to be corduroy tactile with a change of alignment in the middle to keep the grooves parallel with the edges of the path on the cycle side and perpendicular to the edges on the ped side.

Everybody used the ped side.

Cudzoziemiec · « **Reply #10 on:** 03 January, 2020, 10:32:18 pm »

That bobbly tiling can be nasty too. The ones in Clare's link look okay, but Queen Square in Bristol, which is a popular cycle route (path running diagonally through the square), has some nasty ones.
https://goo.gl/maps/UtLpC7m3VzGJUTkr8

Kim · « **Reply #11 on:** 03 January, 2020, 10:33:42 pm »

Quote from: Cudzoziemiec on 03 January, 2020, 10:32:18 pm

That bobbly tiling can be nasty too. The ones in Clare's link look okay, but Queen Square in Bristol, which is a popular cycle route (path running diagonally through the square), has some nasty ones.
https://goo.gl/maps/UtLpC7m3VzGJUTkr8

Having encountered them a few times, those ones are worse than the adjacent pavé.

Cudzoziemiec · « **Reply #12 on:** 03 January, 2020, 10:34:37 pm »

Being in the braking zone doesn't help.

Kim · « **Reply #13 on:** 03 January, 2020, 10:37:10 pm »

Especially when combined with Weather.

Cudzoziemiec · « **Reply #14 on:** 03 January, 2020, 10:38:19 pm »

It's always sunny in Bristol.

hellymedic · « **Reply #15 on:** 03 January, 2020, 11:38:33 pm »

As a wheelchair user, let me tell you I HATE tactile paving! The nipple print causes awful vibration and the corduroy judders or causes tramline wheel lock.

ian · « **Reply #16 on:** 06 January, 2020, 10:10:48 am »

National Rail replaced the old concrete footbridge over the tracks near us last year*. That has plenty of tactile paving at either end. Every surface seems designed to retain a coating of surface water. It's like a game, if you can manage all the steps in the ice, the tactile paving at the bottom is the boss level. For a bonus challenge, the bridge itself has high sides but no lighting, so the top deck is essentially black till you reach the steps to descent, at which point everything is perfect to be suddenly blinded by the streetlight (they, of course, had to remove every single tree in the surrounding area to install the bridge).

*some dug out the archives and noted what took a day to build in the 30s took four months to replace in 2018.

HTFB · « **Reply #17 on:** 06 January, 2020, 03:17:50 pm »

I have a positive use case for tactile paving on two wheels. Our Sprocket is still on a balance bike, being a bit behindhand in her physical development markers, but can attain enough speed to get well ahead of a parent on foot. "Stop at the spots" is a sufficiently easy rule for a nearly-four-year-old to remember.

hellymedic · « **Reply #18 on:** 06 January, 2020, 03:27:52 pm »

Quote from: HTFB on 06 January, 2020, 03:17:50 pm

I have a positive use case for tactile paving on two wheels. Our Sprocket is still on a balance bike, being a bit behindhand in her physical development markers, but can attain enough speed to get well ahead of a parent on foot. "Stop at the spots" is a sufficiently easy rule for a nearly-four-year-old to remember.

[OT] I don't think nearly 4 is 'behind' on development; I know SOME three-year-olds can ride a two-wheeled bike but many can't...

fd3 · « **Reply #19 on:** 06 January, 2020, 11:09:51 pm »

^Agreed. Also some can but choose not to because we keep pestering them about it.

hellymedic · « **Reply #20 on:** 07 January, 2020, 02:51:14 pm »

See also https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=20257.msg362326#msg362326

chrisbainbridge · « **Reply #21 on:** 07 January, 2020, 03:25:49 pm »

I agree totally. Horrible scary stuff

caerau · « **Reply #22 on:** 07 January, 2020, 03:48:21 pm »

Ha, finally an excuse to post my least favourite cycle lane in Cardiff.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4744151,-3.1769182,3a,75y,107.54h,93.25t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLIPw_PAUBWKnM4UAkehSuA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

It just begins with the knobbly stuff - but all that red... it's just like an ice-rink in wet weather. Now right at the end there, you can just see a tiny wee cyclist just there... that person is tackling the chicane, nee S-bend along that ~~ice rink~~ cycle path.... it'll all end in tears.

I use the road in wet weather when I go that way

[edit]. Wow. I've never had the pleasure of this on there... but wow, that white van! WTF?

HTFB · « **Reply #23 on:** 07 January, 2020, 11:06:01 pm »

Quote from: hellymedic on 07 January, 2020, 02:51:14 pm

See also https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=20257.msg362326#msg362326

Sprocket can do lots of things and her gross motor skills just don't match her fine motor skills. We can't all do everything. She can write legibly and do buttons but not walk along a wall or climb or use a scooter. She got the hang of the balance bike rather after most of her contemporaries were already using pedals, but is keen on it now. And she stops at the spots.

barakta · « **Reply #24 on:** 08 January, 2020, 12:10:43 am »

Ranty Highwayman on Twitter is well worth following on this.

As Kim mentioned the tramlining ones were well intentioned but fail. The nobbly ones have also been updated a fair bit to find a better balance between screwing up mobility impaired and wheelchair users and still providing useful info to sight impaired people.

I believe the latest standards have improved some of the nobbly ones, but not sure what's happened to the cyclists ones

This all comes from poor and narrow consultations and not considering ALL space users and balancing needs better from the start.

Also it is worth noting a lot of tactiles are not standards compliant so don't actually work cos they've been done wrongly.